Author Topic: NEF .45-70 Pressure Limits (Read 1104 times)

MarkA · « **on:** January 10, 2005, 05:47:11 AM »

What is / are the max limits on the .45-70 for loading? Is it the 50,000 psi on the 223? What factory loads can be safely shot?

handirifle · « **Reply #1 on:** January 10, 2005, 05:58:46 AM »

Mark
First off, never try to load your 45-70 to the 50K level. NEF has stated their guns will handle the Marlin levels of loads, which is about 42K I believe. That is a very heavy load too.

I'm not sure how high the Rugers go but it is much higher than Marlin or NEF. Stick to Marlin levels or below. Once you push a 400 gr bullet near 2000fps you'll wonder what sane person needs that much power. I pushed some loads that high (2,000fps) in my BC and that thing takes the word RECOIL to a new level.

Second, if you ever DID load that high, have someone you want to get rid of test it for you. If the gun doesn't blow up their shoulder will probably be ruined for life.

If you haven't reloaded for it yet, start at the trapdoor levels and work up. You might find that more than you need. Many have reported excellent results with loads way below Marlin top loads. Better to learn to be more accurate with it than develop a flinch right off the bat.

Joel · « **Reply #2 on:** January 10, 2005, 06:46:08 AM »

They chamber for the 450 which is the same diameter case as the 45/70, and that is up around 50K I believe. Also they are chambering it for the 500 S&W which is also an obvioiusly large case that operates around 50K. As long as you are shooting with the newer High Pressure frames, I doubt if you need to worry much. However, as handirifle has pointed out, the recoil will murder you long before you reach that level. I''ve loaded the 300 gr JHP's up to 2400fps, which was at a pressure level of 45K CUP, and couldn't handle more than 5 shots; and actually after the first 2 I was finished. Rifle/cases/primers showed no signs of excess pressure, but my shoulder surely did.

gwhilikerz · « **Reply #3 on:** January 10, 2005, 07:10:37 AM »

I don't think these rifles will handle 50k and it would be a foolish thing to try. My opinion.

handirifle · « **Reply #4 on:** January 10, 2005, 07:32:39 AM »

The Handi's will easily handle 50K in certain cartridges. The 308 is loaded to 52K CUP (not PSI) but many others are loaded to well above 50K PSI.

The 450 Marlin, according to my sources is SAAMI rated at 43,500 PSI. BIG difference from 50K.

The Marlin brass is quite a bit thicker and will generate more pressure with the same powder charge as the 45-70, but the 45-70 can equal it's performance in every way, and the Handi can very safely handle 450 Marlin level loads. The question begs, do you need them and can you take them.

Like I said, start low, work up and see if YOU WANT to go that high.

As far as comparing the pressures of the 223 to the 450 or 45-70, it becomes a matter of bolt thrust, or the rearward thrust created when to pressure pushes the brass against the bolt (or in the case of the Handi, the receiver face).

The larger surface area of the 450 and 45-70 generate far greater forces and the small head of the 223. Some have converted to 300 Win Mags from 30-06 barrels and stretched the frame in a few shots, to the point where the barrel was loose when closed.

The Marlin levels of 45-70 loads will not damage the Handi, but will still hit the 2K mark with a 400gr bullet.

As far as the Handi handling the 50K PSI it is coming out soon in the 500 S&W and I have pistol loads in my Hodgdons manual just shy of 51K PSI. It is my understanding the factory loads are just under 50K.

Haywire Haywood · « **Reply #5 on:** January 10, 2005, 07:34:21 AM »

Uh Oh... that box is open again.... :eek: ... Altho...The fact that they are offering the high-pressure/large case head 500 might be reason to open the discussion again. Gentlemen, fight fair, seperate when the ref asks you to and may the best man win... DING DING

Ian

quickdtoo · « **Reply #6 on:** January 10, 2005, 07:36:36 AM »

Quote from: gwhilikerz

I don't think these rifles will handle 50k and it would be a foolish thing to try. My opinion.

Not really when you consider the .270 Win generates 65,000 psi with normal loads and is obviously safe at over 50,000 psi with the 500 S&W.

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/saami_pressures.htm

Mac11700 · « **Reply #7 on:** January 10, 2005, 07:50:29 AM »

Guys....like it's been said before...the rifle may take the pressure...but your shoulder won't...and if you really really really want to try...I would suggest one of the Lead Sleds to shoot it in...just remember to add the (2) 25lb bags of lead shot to the tray before you do :eek: :eek: :eek: pushing them up to 50,000 CUP is akin to shooting a 458 WIn Mag...do it in a 8lb rifle...and your in a world of hurt...heck...it's going to hurt in a 10 lb rifle...and you had better make sure you got about 5" of eye relief from the scope when you do other wise your going to get cut......and make sure that your rings and base is very tight...I wouldn't want it coming back at me with the recoil pulse your going to get off of it...I know what it's like shooting a 10 and 12 lb 458 Win Mag...and this would be very close to it in a 8lb Handi...

Mac

MarkA · « **Reply #8 on:** January 10, 2005, 09:06:59 AM »

Thanks all, before this gets carried away, the 'Marlin level' loads were what I was after, and stay away from the Ruger. I really want a good 125 yds and closer gun and I think y'all have directed me to loads that can handle that without any problem!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

glock29 · « **Reply #9 on:** January 10, 2005, 10:01:02 AM »

I personally load my 45-70 Handi-Rifle to the Ruger (50K) level with no signs of excessive pressure. This is MY rifle, not yours, so loads will have to be carefully worked up to max for your rifle.
All rifles have their individual limits.

As stated by previous posters, in the Handi-Rifle, 350gr RN Hornadys at 2300fps & 405gr FP Remingtons at 2100+fps, feature absolutely BRUTAL recoil.

This rifle actually recoils worse with these loads than my CZ550 Safari Magnum shooting full power (6000 ft/lb energy) 500 grain 458 Lott.

Big Blue · « **Reply #10 on:** January 10, 2005, 10:01:15 AM »

SHHHHHH! I here Jackfish coming!

MarkA,
I was always told they can handle Marlin level 2 loads, which has been sanely established to be 40,000 CUP.
Don

MarkA · « **Reply #11 on:** January 10, 2005, 10:39:23 AM »

Just checking the published data from Reminton, Federal and Winchester. All of the PUBLISHED loads show muzzle velocities of 1880 fps + or - in the 300 grainers and 1330 fps for the 405's. Where do the 2000+ fps loads come from, factory or reloads?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #12 on:** January 10, 2005, 10:57:04 AM »

The PMC Silver 350gr is said to be 2025fps which I think is conservative compared to my range results and cost about the same as rem/win factory ammo.

JPH45 · « **Reply #13 on:** January 10, 2005, 12:51:40 PM »

Check out Buffalo Bore loads too.

handirifle · « **Reply #14 on:** January 10, 2005, 01:35:31 PM »

Mark
Many factory loads, remington for one, ONLY load to trapdoor levels. It keeps their liability issue down. Companies that load higher tell you what guns to use them in. It PAYS to read these statements.

Mac
That has ALL been stated several times before, he just wanted to know what the rifle would take, not his shoulder. We told him the shoulder part just to keep him from throwing down the gun and running home from it. :grin:

Badnews Bob · « **Reply #15 on:** January 10, 2005, 02:35:50 PM »

Made my shoulder hurt so much just reading about it that I can't reach my mouse! :-D

Mac11700 · « **Reply #16 on:** January 10, 2005, 07:25:10 PM »

Mark A:

As others have said...the 350's are PMC's loads...and some of Buffalo Bores loads...but for the 300 grainers...take a look in the Hogdons Annual manual...they list all 3 level loads and the 2300-2400 FPS 300 grainer loads...

Mac

Lone Star · « **Reply #17 on:** January 11, 2005, 03:54:23 PM »

Quote

I was always told they can handle Marlin level 2 loads, which has been sanely established to be 40,000 CUP.

Wow, that's certainly interesting to read. I wonder where he heard that one? From the respective loading manuals:

Speer "Marlin" loads = 28,000 cup
Lyman "Marlin" loads = 28,000 cup
Accurate "Marlin" loads = 28,000 psi

Only Hornady ventures into 40,000 cup country:
Hornady "Marlin" loads = 40,000 cup

So from this, can anyone say that the "extablished" pressure for Marlin level loads is 40,000 cup? I thought not. More confusion for the pile.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #18 on:** January 11, 2005, 07:56:24 PM »

Quote

Only Hornady ventures into 40,000 cup country:
Hornady "Marlin" loads = 40,000 cup

Not quite...

Barnes #3 list loads as high as 43,000...and Hodgdons Annual goes to 40,000...

Sierra #5 lumps the Marlin 1895,Ruger #1 & #3,and the Siamese Mauser bolt actions under 1 heading...and used the marlin for testing...Lymans# 48 cationary statement is due to the bullet lenghts meant for the Rugers and other strong single shots...

Nosler's loadings is a bit over 35,000...

So...given that...it's no wonder why so many folks are getting confused...

Mac

Buckeye · « **Reply #19 on:** January 12, 2005, 02:16:07 AM »

Thats why I like the 45/70 "a big heavy bullet pushed to Mod. Vel. can and will punch holes thru the toughest of game" In my GG I push 405gr. Rem. to bout 1850 FPS. & 300gr. to 2050 fps. Never recovered a bullet !
Big hole goin' in bigger goin' out !