.444 marlin

[single shot shooter]

any of you guys hunt with a .444 marlin? How well do you like it and how well does it perform?
thanks
SSS

[Redhawk1]

I have had several Marlin 444's. I sold my first one about 20 years ago. I got 2 more about 3 years ago. A 444P and the 444S. My buddy wanted my 444S so I sold it to him. I traded my 444P off for an original Rolling block 45-70. I have had a 444 Marlin in a T/C contender and traded it. I just got a Encore Katahdin in 444 Marlin. I love the 444 Marlin. I have been shooting one off and on for the past 20 years. I think I will always own one. I have had great success hunting with it and also the accuracy has been very good.  

[Lawdog]

single shot shooter,

I too have always liked the .444.  Wanted one when they first brought it out and still want one but can never find the "right" one.  My only complaint is the lack of bullets for reloading.  I am not into cast bullets and using handgun bullets just doesn't seem right in a rifle.  Lawdog
 

[Redhawk1]

single shot shooter,

I too have always liked the .444.  Wanted one when they first brought it out and still want one but can never find the "right" one.  My only complaint is the lack of bullets for reloading.  I am not into cast bullets and using handgun bullets just doesn't seem right in a rifle.  Lawdog
 

Lawdog, There is a guy in Montana that cast bullets and they are the quality of Cast performance but half the price. I use them in my 444 Marlin. From 210 gr. to 300 gr. gas check. He list them in his pistol bullet section but you can use them in a rifle. Let me know if you want his information.  

[Mikey]

single shot shooter - I have 3 444s.  All are winchester Big Bores and all ahve different length and different twist/groove barrels.  All shoot within an inch at 100 yds with the heaviest and hardest hitting loads you can imagine.  As for capability - I have a 400 lb Russian Boar and a 800 lb cow Elk in my freezer (er, what's edible that is) and each fell to a single shot at 80 yds and 100 yds respectively.  The 444 really starts to shine when it is used with hardcast heavy bullets.

Lawdog - will ya puleeze get into the use of cast bullets in that 444 - they are just much better than anything with a jacket on it, really.  Mikey.

[Redhawk1]

single shot shooter - I have 3 444s.  All are winchester Big Bores and all ahve different length and different twist/groove barrels.  All shoot within an inch at 100 yds with the heaviest and hardest hitting loads you can imagine.  As for capability - I have a 400 lb Russian Boar and a 800 lb cow Elk in my freezer (er, what's edible that is) and each fell to a single shot at 80 yds and 100 yds respectively.  The 444 really starts to shine when it is used with hardcast heavy bullets.

Lawdog - will ya puleeze get into the use of cast bullets in that 444 - they are just much better than anything with a jacket on it, really.  Mikey.

I have to agree with Mikey about the cast is better. Plus they look cool.    

[Lawdog]

Redhawk1, Mikey,

I only use cast bullets in my .45-110 Sharps.  The few times I tried them in other calibers for hunting they acted just like solids.  Same size hole exiting as when entering.  That’s not what I am looking for in a hunting bullet.  Lawdog
 

[Redhawk1]

No problem, we all have our ways of doing it.  

[Lawdog]

Redhawk1,

No problem, we all have our ways of doing it.

You can answer me with a PM if you want but I would like to know how does one keep cast bullets from acting just like solids?   :?   Lawdog
 

[Redhawk1]

Redhawk1,

No problem, we all have our ways of doing it.

You can answer me with a PM if you want but I would like to know how does one keep cast bullets from acting just like solids?   :?   Lawdog
 

Only if you cast your own and make them a little softer, but you got to be careful not to make them to soft.
But I do not try heart lung shots with them, I shoot to take out the shoulder. I want the hard cast to bust through both shoulders. "Usually" you take out the upper part  of the lung when you bust through the shoulders.

[Lawdog]

Redhawk1,

No problem, we all have our ways of doing it.

You can answer me with a PM if you want but I would like to know how does one keep cast bullets from acting just like solids?   :?   Lawdog
 

Only if you cast your own and make them a little softer, but you got to be careful not to make them to soft.
But I do not try heart lung shots with them, I shoot to take out the shoulder. I want the hard cast to bust through both shoulders. "Usually" you take out the upper part  of the lung when you bust through the shoulders.

Thank you for the explanation.  Won’t do me any good as the only time I shoot for the shoulder is on dangerous game.  In my opinion it’s the only time one needs to “bust em’ down”.  Thanks again anyway.  Lawdog
 

[Redhawk1]

Lawdog,  where I hunt in Delaware I want them to go down quick with shoulder shots. If not I will be in marsh mud up to my neck. I shoot white tail in the heart lung area also, when I am in open fields and no chance of the running into the march or brier patch so thick you would need  to crawl on your belly to get to them.  :shock:  :grin:.  But I also use Barnes X in my hunting most of my other hunting rifles.  

[Mikey]

Lawdog:  I use the hardcast slugs so they will act like solids.  I don't favor a slug that opens up too soon, especially on critters who would like to put you on the dinner plate.  That 400 lb Russian Boar I shot flipped right over when he was hit.  The bullet entered the right side of his neck, just behind the head, and coursed all the way through his right shoulder and out - the butcher said I lost about 5 lbs of good shoulder meat with that shot but he hadn't ever seen a slug leave such a clean hole through and through.

The cow Elk went right down with a shot through the chest.  There was a nice round (square hole) going in and the same going out but she dropped in about two feet from where she was hit.  The bullet passed through the top of her heart and made Elkburger out of it.  

Yes, a hardcast may act like a solid but with those big metplats, the internal damage is immediate and final.  HTH.  Mikey.

[Rmouleart]

A properly constructed jacked bullet of sort will perform just as good as any cast bullet or better, bullets have come a long way, for years heard stories of jacketed bullets shedding there jackets, Now a days jacketed bullets have better construction, much better for penetration, I prefer a bullet that expands, I like Hornadys/Noslers/Speer bullets, never have they failed me, and I have been shooting critters for many years, Shot a 300 PD german bore using my Marlin 450 guidegun, using Hornadys 350gr Interlock bullet, on top of 50gr H4198, CCI mag primers, Lee Factory crimp, 2180 fps.
The shot was around forty yards, the shot took him off his feet, dead right away, the entry wound was .458 but the exit wound was as big as my fist.
The hog never had a chance, I also two black bear using the same load, same exit wound. I also believe you get better accuracy from jacket bullet as well. Aim small hit small. RAMbo.

[Lawdog]

As 'Rmouleart' stated jacketed bullets today work just like I want.  I prefer the larger wound channel that a expanding bullet gives over a solid.  Used to use Partitions all the time but since Barnes has brought out the TSX line I have switched over whenever I can.  Used for all the deer hunting this year by my family and the farthest any buck traveled after being hit was a bit less than 20 feet(six long steps).  Every one(15 of them) of them was shot in the heart/lung area.  I have seen more than a few animals get away because they were shot with solid bullets.  Big, heavy, nasty dangerous game I’ll use solids but on non-dangerous game give me Barnes TSX’s.  Lawdog
 

[dawei]

any of you guys hunt with a .444 marlin? How well do you like it and how well does it perform?
thanks
SSS

I have an older model circa 1988 with the slower 1 in 38" twist. It is superbly accurate with the Hornady® Light Magnum 265gr FP. It's a real thumper on elk. I use the Remington® 240gr FP when hunting Blacktail deer. It will still be around long after the 450 Marlin® is no more.

[Redhawk1]

dawei, I have to agree with you. The 444 Marlin will be here for a long time.

Lawdog, I have switched 90% of my guns to Barnes X bullets. They are great in my opinion. What I like is you can use a lighter bullet to do the same as the heavier jacketed lead core bullets.  

[dawei]

dawei, I have to agree with you. The 444 Marlin will be here for a long time.

Lawdog, I have switched 90% of my guns to Barnes X bullets. They are great in my opinion. What I like is you can use a lighter bullet to do the same as the heavier jacketed lead core bullets.  

Redhawk1; What kind/type of Barnes X® Bullets are you loading for your Triple Four? Also, is it with the faster 1/20" twist or the slower 1/38" like mine? I've heard good things from several guys I hunt with about Barnes® bullets; although they use them in those wimpy .277 bores.:bye:

[Rmouleart]

To be honest I would think the 444 would be shadowed bye the 45/70 or 450 lately, due to these guns can do everything the 444 can do and better, a step above in my book, not saying there is not a place for the 444, but your still stuck with using handgun bullets,maybe now they have 444custom bullets, not sure, the 450 is here to stay, it has proved itself many times in the field to be a Superior big bore cartridge, .458 dia is a desirable diameter. A great woods rifle for big game, 200 yards rifle with plenty of poop using big bullets, down any big game animal with fur in north america,and it comes in a lever, what else would you need in that situation. Aim small hit small. RAMbo.

[Redhawk1]

dawei, I have to agree with you. The 444 Marlin will be here for a long time.

Lawdog, I have switched 90% of my guns to Barnes X bullets. They are great in my opinion. What I like is you can use a lighter bullet to do the same as the heavier jacketed lead core bullets.  

Redhawk1; What kind/type of Barnes X® Bullets are you loading for your Triple Four? Also, is it with the faster 1/20" twist or the slower 1/38" like mine? I've heard good things from several guys I hunt with about Barnes® bullets; although they use them in those wimpy .277 bores.:bye:

I do not know the twist off hand. I am using the Encore 444 Marlin 18 1/2 inch barrel. The 225 gr. Barnes X work great in my 444 Marlin. But I also use 300 and 320 gr. cast performance bullets also.


Rmouleart, you are correct about the 45-70 and 450. But the same could be said about the 450. The 45-70 can do anything the 450 will do if you reload. But there is a love for the 444 that will let it stay around for a long time. The whole reason the 444 was brought out was to give the 45-70 a run for the money. The 45-70 had factory rounds made for the early guns such as the trapdoor and it was not a fast round. The 444 Marlin factory loads are flatter shooting and have a higher velocity that "factory" 45-70 loads. Now the reloading potential of the 45-70 is far more superior than the 444 Marlin. But all of these round have there place.  

[Lawdog]

Redhawk1,

The 45-70 can do anything the 450 will do if you reload.

Except for the case of the .45-70 being somewhat thinner than the .450 Marlin.  This is according to Hornady and is one of the reason's I went with the .450 Marlin over the .45-70 in my Ruger No. 1.   Lawdog
 

[Redhawk1]

Redhawk1,

The 45-70 can do anything the 450 will do if you reload.

Except for the case of the .45-70 being somewhat thinner than the .450 Marlin.  This is according to Hornady and is one of the reason's I went with the .450 Marlin over the .45-70 in my Ruger No. 1.   Lawdog
 

It must be a big bore thing. I have a Ruger #1 in 45-70. Shooting those 400 gr. Barnes bullets loaded to the max sure gets my attention.  

[jackfish]

Except for the case of the .45-70 being somewhat thinner than the .450 Marlin. This is according to Hornady and is one of the reason's I went with the .450 Marlin over the .45-70 in my Ruger No. 1.

When loaded to their potential in Marlin lever guns the 450 Marlin and 45-70 are virtual ballistic equivalents.  In addition, because 45-70 and 450 Marlin brass weakens the most in the area it is worked the most and this area is about the same thickness in both, there is no practical difference in case life between the two.  So, ultimately there is no practical difference in performance between the 45-70 and 450 Marlin in Marlin lever guns.

[handirifle]

In addition, the 45-70 actually has more case capacity than the 450 Marlin.

The Ruger #1 45-70 loads with the 400gr speer, exceed the 450M loads by 150fps.   This is from the Hodgdons 2004 Annual Manual.

The Ruger taking 53gr of H4198  @ 2108fps, with the 450M taking just 45.5gr @ 1958fps.  This od course is partly because of the Ruger strength. BUT, when you compare their loads for the lever actions, the 45-70 STILL out performs with 50.5gr H4198 @ 2002fps.

That's right out of the book.

My vote goes for the 45-70, but this is the 444 topic and it STILL sounds like a cool round.  I'll get one someday if the jacketed bullet selection gets better.

[Redhawk1]

I prefer the 45-70 over the 444 Marlin. But there is just a coolness factor of the triple4.     That is why I have both.

[Lawdog]

handirifle,

In addition, the 45-70 actually has more case capacity than the 450 Marlin.

The Ruger #1 45-70 loads with the 400gr speer, exceed the 450M loads by 150fps. This is from the Hodgdons 2004 Annual Manual.

The Ruger taking 53gr of H4198 @ 2108fps, with the 450M taking just 45.5gr @ 1958fps. This od course is partly because of the Ruger strength. BUT, when you compare their loads for the lever actions, the 45-70 STILL out performs with 50.5gr H4198 @ 2002fps.

That's right out of the book.

The .450 Marlin holds 75.2 grains and the .45-70 holds 76.9 grains.  Water weight using brand new Hornady brass in both calibers.  That’s a difference of 1.7 grains.  But you still must keep in mind that the .450 brass is stronger than the .45-70(again this is according to Hornady technicians).

Comparing the max load for the Marlin rifle using a 300 jacketed bullet the .45-70 is 55.0c(compressed load) gr. of H4198 for 2245 fps. and the .450 Marlin is 53.0 gr. of H4198 for 2321 fps..  This is using rifles with the same barrel length.  This is out of Modern Reloading SE(the only one I had handy at the moment) and like Hodgdon is noted for being on the safe side with their data.  All depends on which book you are going by.  I am not saying that the .45-70 isn’t a great cartridge, it is, but it isn’t superior to the .450 Marlin.  Remember the .450 Marlin brass is designed to take pressures the .45-70 isn’t.  Lawdog
 

[jackfish]

Since when is 55 grains of H4198 a maximum load in the 45-70 with a 300 grain bullet?  That load is nowhere near being compressed and 60 grains with a 300 grain Sierra is listed by Hodgdon at 40,000 CUP and 2424 fps in a 24" barrel.  In the Marlin lever gun the 45-70 will always have a slight advantage because of increased case capacity, but it makes no practical difference.  The difference in useful case capacity between the 45-70 Gov't Winchester case and the 450 Marlin Hornady case is at least 3 grains.

The 450 Marlin may be able to withstand more pressure than the 45-70 but it makes no difference in the Marlin lever gun.  However, Winchester 45-70 brass has been tested to 70,000 psi without failure.  The 45-70 and 450 Marlin are virtually the same in the Marlin lever gun, there is no practical difference.  And that's a fact.  Sorry to be a mythbuster.

Now load a 450 Marlin to its potential (65,000 psi, 3.1" COAL and pointed bullet) in a Winchester M70 and you have a whole different story.

[Redhawk1]

If anyone knows a 45-70, it is jackfish. I learned a lot from him from the Marlin forums.    It is a hard pill to swallow for the 450 users, but the 45-70 and 450 are no different.  

[Lawdog]

Redhawk1,

Never said the .450 Marlin was any different or better, I said the .45-70 “isn’t superior to the .450 Marlin”.  Which basically means they are the same except when it comes to their use in bolt action rifles.  Then the .450 Marlin takes the edge over the .45-70.

jackfish,

The difference in useful case capacity between the 45-70 Gov't Winchester case and the 450 Marlin Hornady case is at least 3 grains.

Just how do you figure that with only a 1.7 grain case capacity difference?  Remember to compare Hornady brass to Hornady brass(the only fair way to compare).  Lawdog
 

[Ramrod]

The whole reason the 444 was brought out was to give the 45-70 a run for the money. The 45-70 had factory rounds made for the early guns such as the trapdoor and it was not a fast round.

 , Those old slow .45-70 rounds do just what they did over a century ago. They shoot through big animals and kill them fast.
I said this on another thread, (the one about .444 Wildcats), and I'll repeat it here. The .444 Marlin is the round that revived the old .45-70, once folks realized the limitations of pistol bullets on big game.
And if you want to shoot through something big with a .444, it's best to use the hardcast bullets.