Anyone Here A Musician?

[BamBams]

Every sax player has their style and I think we should let them have it. But I would definetly never be able to take that bari and hit a low C on it while playing out the side of the mouth. No way :eek: .

Yup. I agree with you 100%.  I usually stay out of the Kenny G debates, but it's been awhile, so I figured "what the heck?"  I also didn't want you thinking I was just jealous.  I'm really not.  I totally agree that everyone has their own style.  That is what I love most about the sax, it is like a perfect instrument for self expression - once it's mastered to some degree.  That is where I'm trying to get now. I'm probably only as good as a 2nd year high school band student, and now I'm wanting to break through into blues and jazz so I can express and have more freedom. I have this feeling I'm going to maybe wind up doing alot of fusion someday.  

Well, I use Vandoren's when I can. But due to $$$, I've been using Rico Royal 3's. Not bad at all. I use Vandorens on the clarinet. Mouthpieces...I still have the crappy plastic mouthpiece that came with the alto when I got it back in the stone age. Looking to upgrade to a hard rubber, then a metal. I'm actually looking for suggestions on that if you're willing to suggest a hard rubber mouthpiece. The tenor mouthpiece I have isn't a smooth plastic BUT I don't think it's rubber either  :? . Plays just as good.

Right.  In my limited experience, I've found that the material mouthpieces are made from really doesn't affect the sound very much.  It has more to do with the size of the baffel, and chamber inside - and also the ligature.  I've heard people say that metal mpcs project more, and that's probably true to some degree, but I think other factors are more important.  One way you can sort of tell whether a mouthpiece is hard rubber or plastic is by the smell.  The rubber ones will often have a "burnt rubber" odor to them a little.  The weight is another way.  The plastic ones are very light.

I got a Kenny G album where he dueted with David Sanborn. They did "Picking up the Pieces" . Nice to see two good sax players at it (or at least according to you, one good one and one who just plays out of the side of his mouth :-D ).  

Yup. It is nice to hear more than one sax.  I used to play duets with my x-wife. It's one of the better memories of my failed marriage.  I hope you remember that I don't have anything personal against Kenny G, it's just that I'm not into his musical style and have lost my appreciation for it. I wasn't trying to offend anyone, but to be honest.

As far as mouthpiece selection goes.  It depends on how you want to sound?  The tip opening (distance between the reed and tip of the mouthpiece) will be the main, determining factor in how much of an edge you get.   The narrower the opening, the more centered, solid tone you are going to get.  The wider the tip opening, the more buzz you will get.  Smaller openings (like my 5* Otto) require a stiffer reed, and the larger openings require a softer reed because the distance that the reed has to flutter is greater.  If you listen to the difference between say, Johnny Hodges & David Sanborn, you'll see that Sanborn is using a mpc with much more edge or buzz.  The Vandoren #2.5 I'm using is about the same stiffness as your Rico Royal #3.  Vandorens generally run about 1/4 stiffer than many others.

The baffel of the mpc comes into play also in determining your amount of edge and brightness.  A high baffel (deeper) is going to sound more dark and is good for orchestra, etc.  A lower baffel sounds brighter and is better for pop, rock, jazz etc.

Another thing to consider is your embouchure.  Metal mouthpieces are generally narrower than the other ones.  ie: smaller.  The only reason I got a metal one was because I got a really good deal on it from a local kid
who never used it.  It just happened to have the specs I was looking for.  I think God has really been looking out for me musically.  *smiles*

Chamber size and dimensions (round, side walls, etc) comes into play in determining how centered your tone comes out.  If one thinks of the tone's tonic as being surrounded by partials.  Do you want higher partials?  Lower partials?  Or to have your tonic right smack in the middle?  The latter is what I strive for to bring out the real sound of the sax I'm playing on.  Bueschers are known for a unique, sweet tone that is seldom heard anymore.  A genuine 1924 Buescher mouthpiece is really hard for me to get - and quite pricey.  The bottom line though, is you have to be pleased with the sound.  

So tell us how you want to sound, and I'll do my level best to help narrow down the mouthpiece search for you if I can.  We're talking about your Armstrong alto right? The same rules apply to all saxes, but it would help to know which horn you are wanting to change the setup on.  There are some mail order companies that will let you try out several mouthpieces and return the ones you don't want as long as you don't put a single scratch on them.

[JPSaxMan]

Well, I'm looking for more of a jazz mouthpiece than anything. Even though I may play classic stuff once in a while (which I hate :x ...I have an extremely hard time playing classic b/c I have the urge to 'jazz it up' ). But yea, more of a jazz mouthpiece. I was looking at Selmer, but a friend recommended Otto Link and Meyer? I'll just see what happens.  

[BamBams]

Well, I'm looking for more of a jazz mouthpiece than anything. Even though I may play classic stuff once in a while (which I hate :x ...I have an extremely hard time playing classic b/c I have the urge to 'jazz it up' ). But yea, more of a jazz mouthpiece. I was looking at Selmer, but a friend recommended Otto Link and Meyer? I'll just see what happens.  

Well, both of those companies make great mouthpieces, you can't go wrong with either unless you get the wrong size. Some people have reservations about using metal ottos on Alto saxes - I don't.

[JPSaxMan]

BamBams, I just noticed something.

I had a Frederick L. Hempke reed that had a small (very small, still playable) nick in it, but I decided to break out the Rico's I was talking about. I noticed that the sound was stiff coming out of the horn with the Rico. But I broke in the new Rico.

At the moment, I didn't realize that the Hempke was a Hempke and when I pulled it out again just to satisfy my curiosity I found out it was. I guess reed choice really does matter.

[BamBams]

At the moment, I didn't realize that the Hempke was a Hempke and when I pulled it out again just to satisfy my curiosity I found out it was. I guess reed choice really does matter.

Definitely it does.  I think reeds are to a sax player like cymbals are to a drummer.  The problem is that it's so expensive just to experiment on that quest for the perfect reed.

[JPSaxMan]

Ya got that right    

[mag41vance]

Surrounded by woodwind windbags

  :shock: Make room for a String Picker!! :eek:

 I play them all, but the Guitar and 5 string get most of my attention! YEEEEEEE.HAW!

[JPSaxMan]

We should get a Graybeard band goin!  :-D

[BamBams]

Those are some nice looking instruments!  If we had a "Graybeard Band" then GB would have to do the singing.

[JPSaxMan]

Well, GB, I dunno how u can sing, but what the heck, ya got enough "windbags"  :wink:  and stringpickers here to have a hell of a good time.  

[Selmer]

Hey BamBams, I'm a fellow sax player like you.  It was my major in college, I have my BME from South Dakota State University and am now pursuing a Master of Divinity degree from Wartburg Theological seminary.  Anyway, nice looking old True Tone you have there.  Are you getting a "Sanborn" sound from that set-up?  I wouldn't think you'd get that bright of a sound from the metal Otto Link, but that's more in the player than in the mouthpiece.  I never was a fan of the metal alto Link pieces, but the hard rubber are great and the metal tenor pieces are wonderful, but that's all personal preference.  If you're looking for any tips, check out www.saxquest.com, there's a good discussion forum over there.  I'm still playing quite a bit in addition to teaching private lessons to area students that have band directors that want me to work with their students.  I get my teaching fix that way and I play lead tenor in an area big band, lead alto in a different area big band, and play in a little jazz combo that gigs in the Clear Lake, IA area during the summer.  Hope your come back is going well, shoot me any questions you might have that I might be able to help you with.  BTW, I play on a 1967 Selmer Mark VI (141xxx series) for jazz and a 1999 Selmer Serie III for serious legit playing, I'll get some pics up when I get home this weekend, I'm up in St. Paul, MN taking a J-term New Testament Greek course.  If you like the Sanborn stuff you should check out the music scene in the Twin Cities if you ever get up here, lots of good house bands and local bands in the area with some tremendous sax players.
Selmer

[BamBams]

Are you getting a "Sanborn" sound from that set-up?  I wouldn't think you'd get that bright of a sound from the metal Otto Link, but that's more in the player than in the mouthpiece.

Nope.  Not even close to Sanborn's sound.  It's a sweeter tone, and it's very bright, but without much edge.  I like to describe it as a "Bit O' Honey" slowly melting in one's mouth.  I'm using a tip that is on the narrow side - 5*.  I think it would take a baritone mouthpiece to make this alto sound dark!  *laugh*.  It's sort of like having an alto that really wants to be a soprano. I've checked all the tones on an electronic tuner, except altissimo, and the most I'm off is about 12 cents on the high notes, but that's probably me.  Anyway, it's not really Sanborn's sound that I want.  It's his technical ability, style, mastery of the instrument, and musical knowledge that I have such a great appreciation for.  

I never was a fan of the metal alto Link pieces...

This is something I've heard people say over and over among certain circles of players, yet nobody has ever provided any basis for it.  I wish someone would spell this out for me?  I think it's time that I inquired again:  What, exactly, don't YOU care for when it comes to metal Ottos on an Alto?  I need to know because I cannot perceive the mouthpiece as flawed in any way whatsoever for this application.  The sound of this particular setup has received compliments from experienced musicians. It has a unique, sweet tone. Is it possible that the metal otto link/alto "syndrome" is perhaps another one of those things that somebody once said, and has since become gospel?

The only thing I don't care for on the Ottos is the ligature.  The pressure plate has to really be clamped down tight.  I sort of solved that problem by added some 1/16" thick goat skin to the pressure plate.  This also improved the sound of the horn a bit as well.

I'm still playing quite a bit in addition to teaching private lessons to area students that have band directors that want me to work with their students.  I get my teaching fix that way and I play lead tenor in an area big band, lead alto in a different area big band, and play in a little jazz combo that gigs in the Clear Lake, IA area during the summer.

Aside from teaching - which venue do you enjoy the most?  

 Hope your come back is going well, shoot me any questions you might have that I might be able to help you with.

It's really not going well right now.  My goal is to play the blues and learn improvisation, but I'm not sure that I'm on the most efficient path toward those goals.  I lack a good instructor, so I'm self teaching right now.  I'm just working through the "Universal Method" book and a few other method books. I'm practicing long tones, the major scales, and playing some songs that I like. I feel like I'm stuck, and I'm having a really hard time coming up with short term goals. I'm in serious need of specific guidance at this juncture.

BTW, I play on a 1967 Selmer Mark VI (141xxx series) for jazz and a 1999 Selmer Serie III for serious legit playing, I'll get some pics up when I get home this weekend.

Undispuatably one of the greatest horns made!  (the Mark VI).  One of these days, when I have about $3,000 sitting around doing nothing, I might just pick one up as a back-up for my Buescher.  HAHAHAHA!

I'm up in St. Paul, MN taking a J-term New Testament Greek course.  If you like the Sanborn stuff you should check out the music scene in the Twin Cities if you ever get up here, lots of good house bands and local bands in the area with some tremendous sax players.
Selmer

I've heard that's a great area for live music.  There is like NOTHING here in Colorado - that I know of.

[JPSaxMan]

Was is Sanborn's primary sax? In that song he did w/ the G, sounds like a tenor. But I could be wrong.  

[BamBams]

What's the title of that song? I'd like to listen to it again.  I'm sure I've got it someplace.  

To the best of my knowledge, David Sanborn is primarily an alto player, but I'll look into it.  I'd like to know also.

Okay....found out!  Here's the scoop:

http://www.david-sanborn.com/equipment.html

Notice that he uses a mpc with a wide tip opening - this is where he gets most of his "buzz" from.  I'm on the opposite side - trying to get a "clearer" tone with just a touch of edge on it.

[JPSaxMan]

BamBams, the song was 'Picking up the pieces'. Unless u got G's newest album, chances are you're not gonna find the track. Sure seems like he is an alto player by trade.

I'm just curious. How can one not feel the desire (or curiosity) to try out the other saxes and play them? I love the obnoxious sound of my alto, the mellowness of my tenor and the deep roar of the baritone. And from what I've heard, I'm gonna love the mellow-sweet hypnosis of the soprano.

So how can one stick to one sax all his/her career? I realize it's not good to spread yourself out too thin, but man. I don't get it.  :? No pun to David Sanborn and Candi Dulfer, for they are two awesome sax players who are better than I am as of now. Oh well. Every man to his own.

[BamBams]

That's a great question fish.  I would like to try every sax.  I also want to try the clarinet.  I think that some people just like the voice and range of a certain sax and just stick with it?  In my case, it's a matter of money.  If I had the bucks, I could easily go out and spend $50.000 on saxophones.

Have you tried a contra-bass sax yet?  Here's a picture of one:

[JPSaxMan]

Good Lord that is a BIG sax :eek:  :shock: . No, I haven't tried one and would probably like to. OMG. That's flipping huge.

My clarinet should be out of the shop soon. I'm not the greatest on it. VERY hard to from sax to clarinet. Because since a sax has pads to cover the holes and a clarinet doesn't, your fingers have to perfectly cover the holes on a clarinet or the sound that emmits is one of great horror :shock: . But in the lower register it's actually a very nice sound. Upper register isn't bad if you can get it. Good luck on it if and when ya do try it!  

[BamBams]

....kinda makes a bari look like an alto don't it?

Well, you were right, I don't have the song.  It sounded familiar because I've got both Candy Dulfer's version of it, and also the original Average White Band version.  Have you played it yet?

[JPSaxMan]

I tried to find the version by Average White Band. No, I have yet to play it. And I'm curious...did u delete the word I put in my previous post? Because I don't feel that the word was inappropriate. But anyway.

Clarinet is also a challenge because of the fingering differences. There's this thing called 'going over the break' where you go from one finger to all 8 down on the instrument. Very hard to do at first. I'm getting better at it. But hard yet to do.  

[Selmer]

Bambam, in answer to a couple of your questions, especially the Otto Link metal question:
I thought the same as you, must be a "so and so didn't like them, so they must not be very good"  It's not that I think they are bad mouthpieces, they aren't, they are very good mouthpieces, but mouthpieces are like shoes, if it doesn't feel good, you aren't going to use it, right?  So I tried several different facings of the metal Otto Link and it just doesn't feel good to me, I like the hard rubber mouthpieces in general for alto, but that's a personal preference, in fact, I have tried lots of metal alto mouthpieces and I don't like ANY of them for my alto.  On the other hand, for jazz on tenor AND soprano, I prefer metal, go figure.  Don't ever let anyone tell YOU what YOU should be using for equipment.  What matters is that you're using the equipment that feels good to YOU, sounds good to YOU, and that YOU sound good on.  Notice the emphasis on YOU, there aren't many things in life where it's all about YOU, but this is one of them.  As for hitting a plateau, don't be discouraged, that happens, just keep playing through it.  If you're really looking into blues progressions and learning jazz tunes, especially standards and getting around the ii-V7-I turn around, check out the Jamey Aebersold series of CD's.  It's a series of CD's combined with books that he has put together that have a recorded live rhythm section background with all of the proper chord changes, some aren't in the "proper" key, but I won't get into that.  The point is, for a one man band trying to really learn to develop or re-deveop and ear and that doesn't have access to a jazz combo, these CD's are great!  They are $15-$20 a piece, which includes a CD and a corresponding book.  I would highly recommend getting the "Nothin' but Blues", "Blues in All Twelve Keys", and the "ii-V7-I Progression in All Twelve Keys" sets to start with, plus another CD that has some of your favorite songs on it to play for your own enjoyment.  Just google "Jamey Aebersold" and you should get thousands of hits.  Compare prices and order what you want, they usually tell you what songs are on each CD.  I've blabbed long enough, keep playing and enjoy!  BTW, I got my Mark VI for under $3000, you could get one too, but that gold-plated Buescher is gorgeous!  It's not the name, it's your satisfaction that counts!
Selmer
PS:  Feel free to email me about any other questions.
Two great books, "The Jazz Language" by Dan Haerle and "Patterns for Jazz" by Jerry Coker, great for learning about the language and gaining technical facility around the horn.

[Selmer]

Bambams, couple more answers.  I don't care what venue, I just love playing with other people as passionate about jazz and music as I am.  Comment about one of the all time great horns, not only the Mark VI, but also the
Serie III horns.  I've played several "Reference" model Selmers that are supposed to be a lot like the Mark VI's, they are nothing like my Mark VI, not nearly the projection or quality of sound, that comment only goes for alto, haven't played with the tenors, so I won't comment on something I have no personal experience with.  IMHO, the alto Serie III is a much better buy than the alto Reference, I'm just not impressed, and for those of you who think that a different horn set-up or adjustment would make the Reference different, sorry, tried several different set-ups done by Randy Jones at Tenor Madness, and I didn't like any of them, I tried them in Randy's shop and he's  a little frustrated with them as well.
Selmer

[BamBams]

So I tried several different facings of the metal Otto Link and it just doesn't feel good to me, I like the hard rubber mouthpieces in general for alto, but that's a personal preference, in fact, I have tried lots of metal alto mouthpieces and I don't like ANY of them for my alto.  On the other hand, for jazz on tenor AND soprano, I prefer metal, go figure.

Thanks!  I am relieved to hear this.  I was beginning to wonder if someone found some type of flaw.  I will press on with it then, since the sound and feel are working quite well for me - so far anyway.

 Don't ever let anyone tell YOU what YOU should be using for equipment.  What matters is that you're using the equipment that feels good to YOU, sounds good to YOU, and that YOU sound good on.  Notice the emphasis on YOU, there aren't many things in life where it's all about YOU, but this is one of them.

I truly appreciate this advice.  It seems like opinions are all over the place.  Frankly, I just keep saying to myself, "If my sax was good enough for Hodges....."

 As for hitting a plateau, don't be discouraged, that happens, just keep playing through it.  If you're really looking into blues progressions and learning jazz tunes, especially standards and getting around the ii-V7-I turn around, check out the Jamey Aebersold series of CD's.  It's a series of CD's combined with books that he has put together that have a recorded live rhythm section background with all of the proper chord changes, some aren't in the "proper" key, but I won't get into that.  The point is, for a one man band trying to really learn to develop or re-deveop and ear and that doesn't have access to a jazz combo, these CD's are great!

I went to his website and looked over his free guide.  I'm thinking it's all a little above my head right now, but I requested his catolog and plan to order some of his materials for sure.  Thank you very much for pointing me in that direction.

Once I get time to sit down and explain my "dilemas,"  I will certainly email you for advice.  I greatly appreciate your willingness to help me out.  It really sucks not being able to have a teacher locally.  I'll keep on the lookout for one though.

[BamBams]

And I'm curious...did u delete the word I put in my previous post? Because I don't feel that the word was inappropriate. But anyway.

I sure did Fishman, and it was nothing personal.  While that term is used often as a substitute for another foul word, GB's is a "family oriented" environment, and I'm trying to keep it that way.  In my home, I don't even allow my kids to use that word.  Of course, if you'd like to argue why that particular term has merits here, I'd be happy to listen, but I won't change my mind.  *smiles*

Clarinet is also a challenge because of the fingering differences. There's this thing called 'going over the break' where you go from one finger to all 8 down on the instrument. Very hard to do at first. I'm getting better at it. But hard yet to do.  

Gosh, I think I better hold off on the Clarinet until I get better at the sax first!

[JPSaxMan]

Gotcha, boss. And you're moderator, you can do whatever you please.

One more thing, it's best to have personal instruction on the clarinet like I did to see what you're doing wrong. And with that going over the break, the tip is to try to keep your fingers as close together as possible. This way, all you have to do is just put them down and there ya go.  

[BamBams]

Charlie Parker used to recommend that new sax players learn to play the clarinet first.  Frank Morgan said he suffered through the clarinet for years before his dad would agree to get him a sax. He didn't suffer because he hated the clarinet, but because he had to prove himself on it before he could start on a sax.

[JPSaxMan]

Well guys, for now I'm bailing out on Selmer. Too much $$$. And I'm also bailing out on the soprano sax. I think I'm gonna get much more value out of a tenor. So I'm a looking at a Yamaha. The model YTS-475 is an intermediate tenor at around $1,000. That's $2,000 less than the Selmer, so that's my choice. Tell me what ya think!  

Check it out!

[BamBams]

I hear that Yamaha makes nice saxophones, but I've never played one.  Perhaps Selmer, or someone else, can proffer a better opinion.  I am into vintage saxes mostly.

[JPSaxMan]

So you're a Mark VI man? I remember back in HS one of our alto players was playin a school horn, although he had a Mark VI. The band director was perpetually pissed at him because he never brought it in to show to him. :-D  

[BamBams]

I'm not really a Mark VI man.  While they are great horns indeed, alot of the popularity has to do with "so and so" uses one - I believe.

Honestly, if I was looking for a tenor, I'd be hunting down a Buescher "Top Hat & Cane" model in great condition.

[JPSaxMan]

And I assume that's $$$ up the wazoo? Don't got it man, otherwise I'd spend it on a Selmer.