Author Topic: 25-o6 brass ? (Read 1090 times)

Broken Scope · « **on:** January 15, 2005, 05:57:17 AM »

The reloaded brass on my 25 looks as if it is belted after I shoot it. Im using 57gn of H4350,75 vmax at 3624. The ring and swell is about 3/4 of the way around the brass and 1/4from the base. I shot a group and it stringed horizonal so Ill try the o ring trick. No problems with ejection. The string was 2 3/8" wide. Bullet seated .010 off lands. Is this normal for the brass to look that way or is it a pressure sign? Thanks

mitchell · « **Reply #1 on:** January 15, 2005, 06:06:46 AM »

i have the same thing in my 30-06 and 7mm-08 i was told it is due to an oversized chamber. i was told the polishing it would void my warranty so i just live with it it does cut down on brass life and do keep an eye on the brass if it get shot oe too many times it will come in half in the chamber when you fire it and eject it half the shell stays in and is a pain to get out.

Broken Scope · « **Reply #2 on:** January 15, 2005, 06:16:19 AM »

Thanks Mitchell,I just wanted to be sure. The max load on the bottle shows 3700 fps H4350. Has anyone maxed theirs out and what is the best groups got with this powder and Vmax load?

Nightrain52 · « **Reply #3 on:** January 15, 2005, 06:26:37 AM »

If your brass is that bad NO WAY WOULD I WANT TO SHOOT A MAX LOAD IN IT. If the gun is fairly new I would get in touch with H&R-NEF and see about getting a new barrel. :eek: :shock:

mitchell · « **Reply #4 on:** January 15, 2005, 06:35:28 AM »

but don't reloads also void your warranty?? how could you complain about messed up reloads is they are not aloud in the fire arm?

Mac11700 · « **Reply #5 on:** January 15, 2005, 06:57:58 AM »

Simple...you don't reload :wink: :wink: :wink: Get it :wink:

Mac

Fred M · « **Reply #6 on:** January 15, 2005, 10:06:52 AM »

The best way to go with a 25-06 is to find some 30-06 brass that has the largest dimeter on the base about a 1/4" above the bottom. New brass at that point will vary from .464 to .468. depending who makes it.

30-06 is easy to neck down to 25-06 with one stroke in a full size die and makes up a bit of size in the neck too. I usually do a partial outside neck ream on the necked down cases. But with the big chamber necks in the H&R rifles you don't have to do that, but it helps accuracy.

If you don't know your chamber length trim them to 2.494". My 25-06 has a chamber that is 2.505, so I don't have to worry about trimming new brass. This extra length also gets me 10 thou closer to the lands.

Measure the fired case and let us know how much it expanded, your chamber could easy be .472 at that point.

Broken Scope · « **Reply #7 on:** January 15, 2005, 11:25:58 AM »

Fred My case length before shot was 2.493 and now is 2.500. I measured three fired cases and the widest point of the buldge was .471 . Between the case head and the buldge it is .464. Do you think I am okay

Fred M · « **Reply #8 on:** January 15, 2005, 01:10:49 PM »

Broken Scope

Chamber of .471 is still in spec, but loose enough. The brass at .464 at the base is also in spec. I suspect you are using Rem cases? They make them so loose for their auto loaders in 270, 280 an 30-06.

The 25-06 brass is made from the same run only with a different head stamp. Like I said find some bigger base brass, if you want to.

Try to set your die so you only set the shoulder back no more than 2-3 thou including any space you have between the end of the barrel and the standing breech. You need 2-3 thou to fully close the action.
That will give you minimum expansion and your cases will last about eight to 9 reloads in an H&R action.

You should also uniform the primer pockets with a special little tool, to make sure the primer pockets ar clean and the primers don't stick out past the case head.

If you don't see any crimp on the end of the case mouth your 2.500" length should be ok, but don't let it grow any more. I like to know exactly how kong the chamber is by using a chamber length gauge. or a Cero Safe chamber cast.

I had similar trouble with my 25-06 Ultra, large chamber neck and shoulder. My die crunched the cases down 8 thou at the shoulder. So I polished the die out by five thou at the shoulder.

What you are saying you gained 7 thou in just one reload? That means that your brass from the shoulder to the base is at least 5-6 thou too short. Set your die 5-6 thou above the shell holder, hopefully you got no spring in your loading press. Or you can make some steel shim stock horse shoe washers and glue them to the shell holder.

I have Redding competition shell holders in sets of five where you can adjust the head space up to +.010".

You can polish your die too so you won't over work the brass. Don't worry about the bulge just reduce the sizing a bit and find bigger brass. As far as the factory is concerned they will return the gun and tell you the chamber is in spec.

They make some pretty sloppy chambers and bores. Depending whether you have a chamber with a new reamer (max) or one where the reamer has been reground and sharpened a few times. (min). You call that the luck of the draw. No need for 8thou slop. But reamers are very expensive, and everybody wants a cheap rifle.

Broken Scope · « **Reply #9 on:** January 16, 2005, 12:42:56 PM »

Thanks Fred and others for the info. Found out that the primers are flattened out some so im going to back off the charge. What would be a good powder to try to get high velocity with the 75vmax? Maybe Imr 4064?

Fred M · « **Reply #10 on:** January 16, 2005, 04:31:29 PM »

In a Handi I would not use anything faster than H4831. 4064 is a very poor powder to use in a Handi.How fast you think you want stretch that Handi action? Try for 3400 ft if that is not fast enought get a bolt action.

Broken Scope · « **Reply #11 on:** January 22, 2005, 09:13:07 AM »

Thought i would give an update. Tried factory round and it does the same thing with buldge except not as bad so im not worried about it. I tried H414 and its a smoker but I backed off to 51gr because the ejector was a little tight. Tried the o ring trick and shot no better,it also caused the barrel to have a slight wiggle so I put forearm back on today again and cranked down good on the screw. Put it on a bullbag and bingo 11\2 in group and no string and I pulled on one. Im starting to like it more. I need more practice I dont think it has been the guns fault for accuracy unless the bullbag cures a problem somehow. Good shooting

safetysheriff · « **Reply #12 on:** January 22, 2005, 03:12:43 PM »

Broken S',

Some time back I rec'd a lot of older NRA American Hunter mag's with the excellent handloading columns that Ed Matunas had written in them. He did not like W-760 (which is Very Similar to H-414) for use in the .25-06 because of its pressure spikes......which may have given you that tight ejector. I was surprised by that, but it's a canister-grade powder that apparently couldn't handle Heavy Loads in the .25-06. At least, that's how Ed Matunas saw it.

I'd go with either H-4831 or AA-3100 for lesser pressures while still moving that 75 gr' bullet to maybe 3,500 fps -- or less, like Fred has suggested. It'll also help to extend barrel life.

An alternative source of .25-06 brass, that would need a genuine working up of your charge weights, would be GI brass from the Lake City Arsenal in .30-06......which can be fairly heavy stuff. I'd start around 12% below the suggested max' load of a single-base powder (like those mentioned above) if going that route, however. .

Incidentally, you may want to polish your expander ball and then try lubing your cases with Mobil-1 synthetic in 10w-30 to cut down on the friction. It might help to reduce case stretching for you as it has for me. Wash it off with Ajax lemon dish soap and you're in business. You can soak the brass in a quart of vinegar with two tbspn's of salt if you like to clean and shine/degrease it that way, too.

Good shooting to you.

SS'

Fred M · « **Reply #13 on:** January 22, 2005, 03:47:20 PM »

Saftysheriff.

Quote

An alternative source of .25-06 brass, that would need a genuine working up of your charge weights, would be GI brass from the Lake City Arsenal in .30-06

This is one of the best ideas I have heard for a long time, and it is most idyllically suited for the H&R 25-06.

This brass is exceptionally strong and thick walled at the pressure ring.
The reduction of case volume is a welcome bliss for the Handi. Which simply can't handle real hot loads. This one of the reasons I went with the 257 Roberts for my new Handi.

The stronger cases would provide better extraction and longer case life, providing the loads are tailored to that case. A near full case of H1000 would keep the pressure down with good or better velocity than faster powders. I found H1000 very good in the H&R 25-06.

Who sells this Lake City military brass? I like to buy some.

safetysheriff · « **Reply #14 on:** January 22, 2005, 05:16:56 PM »

Fred'

Go to www.patsreloading.com, click on prices, and you'll see 500 each of the Lake City '06 once-fired for $29.99 -- plus tax and shipping I'd guess. The 'new' stuff, unfired that is, can be had for $55 dollars for 500 each. It costs more if the stuff is re-sized and the primer pocket swaged. This new stuff is from 1969 that is being pulled apart -- but it's in good shape from what I've seen at the shows in n.e. Ohio that I get to.

Pat's reloading is located south of Cleveland by about 60 miles so I don't know how long UPS would take to ship from there.

I see these guys regularly at the shows and they strike me as very good people. You'll enjoy some of their verbage on their site as well.

Good luck,

SS'

Broken Scope · « **Reply #15 on:** January 22, 2005, 05:55:42 PM »

I have some military 30-06 brass that I will have to mic. As far as the 414 goes Layne Simpson liked it as an accurate load. Does the faster powder always = higher cup pressure at same velocity?

safetysheriff · « **Reply #16 on:** January 22, 2005, 06:17:52 PM »

Group,

Speaking of 'miking' the brass, any necked-down brass, such as .30 cal' to .25 cal' should have the neck diameter of a loaded round measured against SAAMI spec's to be sure that the brass is not too thick to allow the bullet to properly release when the rifle is fired.

Broken S'

Generally I would look at the reloading manuals that post pressures with their 'recipes' to see what pressures they developed. It is possible to use a smaller amount of a faster powder to equal the same/very-nearly-same velocity produced by a larger amount of a slower powder at a given pressure. So I'd say, "no" to the question you asked about powder burn rate -- since you used the word "always".

SS'

Fred M · « **Reply #17 on:** January 22, 2005, 07:58:34 PM »

Broken Scope
We are talking about the H&R rifle not Lane Simpson and his bolt action
rifle. Re-read was has been said maybe you get it yet. Also read some good reloading books and learn the basics of how powder works.

Loading books list powders in an order of best suitability look where the H414 fits in the 25-06 and note the pressure.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #18 on:** January 23, 2005, 07:02:51 AM »

Broken Scope:

Here's what I've got for the V-Max bullet

From the Hodgdons Annual Manual...

Remmington cases...Remmington 9-1/2 primes...trim to 2.484"

Hornady 75 grain V-Max Dia. 0.257"...COL: 3.100"

H1000...start..58.0 3135fps...35,300 cup...to...62.0 gr...compressed...3339fps..40,000 cup

H4831...58 gr..3393fps...41,800 cup...to..62.0 gr..compressed...3599fps...49,300 cup

H4350...54.0 gr....3460fps..43,300 cup...to...58.5 gr....3700fps...50,900 cup

H414..51.0gr...3471fps..44,500 cup...to..55.0gr..3626fps..50,100cup..

H380..47.0gr...3331fps..45,000 cup..to..51.0gr..3494fps...49,900 cup...

Varget..46.0gr...3454fps..43,400cup..to..49.7gr..3660fps..51,200 cup..

H4895...45.0gr..3474fps..45,000 cup...to...48.5gr...3642fps..50,800 cup

On Pg. 70...is the following...the bolds are mine

At the time of this writting,the new Hodgdon Annual Manual reresents the most complete and up-to-date listing of loading data available.All data is arranged with buillets from the lightest to heaviest..and powders listed with burning rates from Slowest to Fastest for quick and easy use...

Gennerally,the best powder choice is the powder which most nearly fills the case for the intended velocity...

Most often,slower burning powders are more suitable with heavy bullets,while faster powders are better with lighter bullets.Of-course,most reloaders like a powder that delivers near maximum or maximum results throughout the range odf bullets,but,that is not always obtainable,since cartridges( like the 30-06) have too wide a range of bullets for any one burning rate to be Ideal.

Hope this helps...

Mac

Broken Scope · « **Reply #19 on:** January 23, 2005, 11:34:13 AM »

Thanks Mac good info.

Broken Scope · « **Reply #20 on:** January 28, 2005, 09:40:50 AM »

Thought I would give an update on the 25-06. It shot a 5/16 in group today with 54 gr of H 4350 at 100yds. I m pleased because Im not even a good shot. forearm in normal position. This was a center to center group with a cheap sportsview scope. These rifles have great potential.

Ricci Price · « **Reply #21 on:** January 29, 2005, 05:21:03 AM »

If you really wants something different try a 270 case it will come out alot longer and will still be thick enough to neck turn. i have tried all three 25,30,270. with the 270 case i can cut it to the length i need,which is longer than usual i trim at 2.500 my chamber length is around 2.515 several things can be causing bulging cases one thing i found was barrel was loose when closed thus alowing case to back out when it was shot i even split a case or two, yes it scared me but after some hinge pin shimming ever thing is ok oh yeah, 4064 powder is a good choice for 75 v max. cant remember how much i used (loading book is at home)but it was enough to make it move around 3800 fps shot real good for me

Don Fischer · « **Reply #22 on:** February 02, 2005, 04:03:55 PM »

Sound's to me like your answer is quite a way's back. You said your case length was 2.500. Max case length for a 25-06 case is 2.494; trim length is 2.484. Your neck is infringing in the bore, beyond the chamber and pinching the bullet causing pressure to rise dramatically. Your fired case head should not be over .470". That ring your looking at is the start of case head seperation. To check further, take a stif wire and make a short 90 degree bend in it, sharpen the end that's bent. Run it in the case and scratch across the inside of the case where the ring is. Do it carefully and you'll feel the impending seperation.[/quote]

quickdtoo · « **Reply #23 on:** February 02, 2005, 04:16:17 PM »

Welcome to GBO, Don!

Yer not a left over Rashneeshee, are ya? :-D :-D