BC 45-70 lengthened to 45-110???

[Cottonwood]

I want to know if you can push the 45/110 or 45/120 to the max like I push my 45/70 to the Ruger pressure level. My 45/70 gives about 4000 lb/ft of energy with a 350gr bullet at 2300fps.
Would like to see what the 45/110 or 120 would do at these pressure levels.
I know there is no NEED in North America for such loads, it is a WANT.
Does anyone publish MAX loads (Ruger Level, no wimps please) for 45/90 110 or 120.
These would probably at least equal the 458 Win Mag & approach the 458 Lott, at a pressure that is compatible with the H&R Rifles.

Recoil ? That jest lets you know you touched off somethin' WORTHWHILE.

glock29

Simply no... the 45-90, 45-100, 45-110 and the 45-120 are considered to be obsolete cartridges and were for the most part created for black powder use.  There are few smokeless powders such as AA 5744 that give load data for these cartridges.  For the charges specified there is just too much air gap inside the case to safely push the limits using smokeless powder.

I will try and explain further here.

A shooter may ask, then why should I ream up... simply to push their limit with long range target shooting and or the coolness factor ro simply both.  

In the black powder cartridge loads they can walk away from the smokeless loads for long range development.  The 500-gr to 535-gr is about all you want to push out of a 45-70 depending on barrel twist and that was why the 45-90 was developed.

One may ask themselves, "Where am I going with this desire to ream up?  Don't know either but don't want to be late getting there".  I would just have to say, its a matter of personal desire to achieve something because I can.

All I can say is, if it is not for you for one reason or another, don't do it.  But remember even though the Buffalo Classic can not be used in the NRA BPCR Silhouette matches or some others.  But is allowed in some fun matches like the Quigley Match.  It can be a good tool to help learn a shooter in the ART of black powder cartridge loading and shooting.

I hope you all have as much fun as I do with this.

[quickdtoo]

Supposing I decided I definitely wanted to do this, what brass is available? I've only found 45-100 brass at Starline in bulk and found 45-120 loaded ammo....Is 45-120 brass available any where? And how would these work in the 22in handi barrel using black powder or a substitute. I know lots of muzzleloaders have 22in barrels and shoot 150gr loads, so I would think a 120gr load with a heavy bullet would work. I'm just thinking it would be a fun gun with a lot of wow factor at the range loading that 3¼" 45-120 round. :eek:
Thanks,

Tim

[Haywire Haywood]

You wouldn't have enough barrel to burn 120gr worth of powder... you'd just be blowing a lot of unburned powder all over the ground 10' in front of ya.  The BCs 32" barrel would have a much better chance at taking advantage of the extra case capacity.

Ian

[quickdtoo]

I don't think it would be that bad, particularily with a 500gr bullet. I've shot 385gr 457124 bullets w/120gr 2FF Goex out of a 21" hawken carbine with no unburned powder shooting over snow. I would think a cartridge would definitely help ignition and reduce unburned powder. I shoot 120gr 3FF T7 in my Black Diamond w/348 & 405gr Powerbelts with no unburned powder, either.

What I need is a source of brass.....maybe a group buy of the 45-100 Starline and split the cost and brass??  Sure wish they offered 45-120 brass, though.... :cry:

[Cottonwood]

Supposing I decided I definitely wanted to do this, what brass is available? I've only found 45-100 brass at Starline in bulk and found 45-120 loaded ammo....Is 45-120 brass available any where?
Tim

Starline Brass does have 45-90 2.4" listed right above the 45-70 brass, on their price page.  For 250 ct order it is $179.00 for a 500 ct order its $314.00

For an eye opener price on 45-3 1/4" aka 45-120 brass its $2.50 ea thru Buffalo Arms.  Just an FYI for historical purposes, this cartridge was never used during the BIG Bison Harvest era.

The largest cartridge that I would attempt myself would be the 45-2.6" aka 45-110.. if you all like I can provide one of those pictures with a distription and cartridge size like I did for the 45-90 cartridge.

[quickdtoo]

Jon, Sure, the more info the better!  Aside from the recoil factor behind the BC, why would you not go for the 45-120? This venture for me is just a toy, albeit if a big toy....I want the shock and awe of the big guy on the block if at all possible....I've certainly spent much, much more money and time on projects that had less reward from the practical point of view. If I'm going to spend time and money on this "toy", I want the most reward that I can get and the 45-120 seems to be it. Even if I only buy 20 rounds of brass to work with, it would still be fun. Lyman makes full length sizing dies for the 45-120 Sharps...what else would I need specific to the 45-120 that 45-70 loading tools wouldn't work for? I already have a lyman sizer/luber and several moulds....thanks,    Tim

http://www.midwayusa.com/rewriteaproduct/630337

[handirifle]

buckeye
If I read you right, the loads you seek are already out there.  They're called the 458 Win Mag and 458 Lott.  I would NOT suggest loading your Handi (if that is what you have) to those levels.

These rounds will provide you with the power you seek, but I pitty your shoulder if you shoot them from a Handi, even IF the gun held up, I know MY shoulder would not take that pounding long.

I watched a guy shooting his Ruger #1 in 416 Rigby from a lead sled at the range.  That sucker packed a whallop at the shoulder, even with the 30# of lead on it.  The 416 doesn't touch the 458's.

[JPH45]

I apologize fella's, obviously I've read something into things that isn't there. Sorry about that.

[Cottonwood]

Here ya go:  

45-90 aka 45-2.4"


45-100 aka 45-2.6"


45-110 aka 45-2.7/8th


45-120 aka 45-3.1/4"


One thing I did notice in the loadings for the 45-110 and the 45-120 Fg is used rather than FFg black powder.  This will make a differance in felt recoil, bringing it down to a more enjoyable level while shooting  :grin:

[Deadeye47]

that 45-120 is just H U G E!!! :shock:  Quick...you might just have to have a helper to help poke that sucker in the chamber!!  :-D  :-D  :-D

That could definately conjure up...shock and awe at the range with a pile of those on your bench...especially while the guy next to ya is loadin up his 10-22 magazine..... :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D

[quickdtoo]

Well, you've heard of a gun bearer, well, this might require an ammo bearer and an ammo loader........................and an extra gun shooter!! :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D

And Hodgdon has a couple T7 cartridge loads for the 45-120 and I just happen to have 2 bottles of it on hand!!! :wink:

45-120 Sharps 500 Gr. Lyman #457193 T7 FFG 95.0 Gr. 1511fps

45-120 Sharps 500 Gr. Lyman #457125 T7 FFG 95.0 Gr. 1375fps

http://www.hodgdon.com/data/muzzleloading/granular/t7cartridge.php

[Deadeye47]

"45-120 Sharps 500 Gr. Lyman #457193 T7 FFG 95.0 Gr. 1511fps" :eek: Ouch!!

[Haywire Haywood]

Ok, I give up... really I do.  I've already talked to a smith... the 45-90 WCF conversion is in the works.. no Soule sight yet, no money for it... but the conversion has begun.  Dies, Brass and 500gr boolits in the Midway shopping basket.

It's all Graybeard's Fault for giving us this place to corrupt one another.

Ian

[quickdtoo]

Ain't that the truth!!!

[Buckeye]

buckeye
If I read you right, the loads you seek are already out there.  They're called the 458 Win Mag and 458 Lott.  I would NOT suggest loading your Handi (if that is what you have) to those levels.

These rounds will provide you with the power you seek, but I pitty your shoulder if you shoot them from a Handi, even IF the gun held up, I know MY shoulder would not take that pounding long.

I watched a guy shooting his Ruger #1 in 416 Rigby from a lead sled at the range.  That sucker packed a whallop at the shoulder, even with the 30# of lead on it.  The 416 doesn't touch the 458's.

No I'm not seeking the 458win. or the Lott ,(I see no need for pushing a heavy .458 bullet to higher Vel.s) and I was just wantin to know the advantage of a 45/110 over a 45/70 loaded to simlar pressures.
Myself Im happy with 1800fps or so with a 405gr. bullet out of my GG.
I've got a real kicker a 7.5 LB 375 H&H,And I don't shoot it off the Bench

I 'm thinking the only true advantage to the 45/110 is the use of heavier or longer bullets. And I see no reason why a Handi can't handle equal pressure with the 45/110 as it does with the 45/70 ...
I'd just like to have Modern 45/110 loads just as we have modern 45/70 loads ...

[Deadeye47]

Ok, I give up... really I do.  I've already talked to a smith... the 45-90 WCF conversion is in the works.. no Soule sight yet, no money for it... but the conversion has begun.  Dies, Brass and 500gr boolits in the Midway shopping basket.

It's all Graybeard's Fault for giving us this place to corrupt one another.

Ian

:-D  :-D  :-D The good gentleman has succumbed.... :-D  :-D

[quickdtoo]

Well, I don't know about you Ian, but I feel I've been corrupted by the best!!! :wink:

[Cottonwood]

Heres a pic to corrupt ya... just think of your Buffalo Classic doing this, it will darn hard to wipe the smile from your face.  :-D

The guy in the pic is not me, but another BPCR shooter... I caution you, this is very addictive and there is no cure  :shock:



And another  :-D

[Haywire Haywood]

One question about mounting a Soule... there is no tang on the BC and what I've heard is that the wood is inletted where the tang would be and the sight mounted with wood screws.   Is that going to cause any significant inconsistancies because of changes in the wood due to humidity and should I be concerned that inletting at the neck would weaken that area?

Ian

[quickdtoo]

That "wood" be a concern....I think if I were going to mount that type of sight, I would glass bed the butt stock to the frame for a little extra stability.

[Cottonwood]

One question about mounting a Soule... there is no tang on the BC and what I've heard is that the wood is inletted where the tang would be and the sight mounted with wood screws.   Is that going to cause any significant inconsistancies because of changes in the wood due to humidity and should I be concerned that inletting at the neck would weaken that area?

Ian

The only resolve to mounting directly to the wood is having Lee Shaver Gunsmith do your inletting of a tang.  As I understand it he does a very good job of it and has done many Buffalo Classic tang inlettings.  If you mount your own tang sight you run the risk of 1) A mis-aligned base 2) Splitting the wrist.

While your looking at Lee Shavers web site look at the Delux Long Range Soule Sight.  This is the one that I have for my EMF Hartford Sharps 45-90

And if you have him inlet your tang, he can mount your Soule Sight while hes at it.  Lee Shaver also can ream your Buffalo Classic up... gee it sound like he can do it all  

[Haywire Haywood]

Yep, Lee's the one doing the work, but just the throat on the Handi and the rechamber on the BC at the moment.  I'll ask him about the wood question and see what he says.

Ian

[Deadeye47]

I think it would be be better on a BC to mount a sight on the barrel rather than the stock..because it is a break open there is always the slightest wobble...mounting to the barrel would remedy this obviously undesirable condition.... :roll:

[Haywire Haywood]

Anyone run across a good long range sight that maybe uses the scope mount holes?  Both Bob and I have been looking for one and have not come up with anything.  He wants one for his Target Special.

Ian

[Cottonwood]

Anyone run across a good long range sight that maybe uses the scope mount holes?  Both Bob and I have been looking for one and have not come up with anything.  He wants one for his Target Special.

Ian

Ian

I have posted this one before, but it will not fit those pre-drilled holes but will fit out on the barrel 6.5" from the edge of the barrel (breech end) towards right where it says "Buffalo Classic" on the barrel.



Pedersoli Target Sights by Thunder Ridge  Rear sight for Springfield Trapdoor model 1879. Sometimes refered to as a "buckhorn" style. Used on Trapdoor rifles from 1874 until superseded by buffington style in 1884.  Side ramps are graduated to 500 yds and the ladder to 1500 yards. Adjustable for Windage.

I had one of these from an original Springfield Trapdoor Rifle.



I hope this helps

[quickdtoo]

It's a done deal!!! 45-120-3¼" here I come!!!!  Ordered bullets and brass from Buffalo Arms, lyman die set #7460506 and some more bullets from Cabelas. Barrel has been shipped, all I need now is to get the reamer!  :grin:

[Haywire Haywood]

Hehe.... welcome aboard the wacky wagon.  :-D

Ian

[Cottonwood]

It's a done deal!!! 45-120-3¼" here I come!!!!  Ordered bullets and brass from Buffalo Arms, lyman die set #7460506 and some more bullets from Cabelas. Barrel has been shipped, all I need now is to get the reamer!  :grin:

Hot Dog!!!

Man I can't wait to see it when your all done....

Now remember you get less felt recoil with Goex Fg not FFg   :eek:  :shock:  :eek:  :shock:  :eek:  :shock:

[JPH45]

[quote="Buckeye]

No I'm not seeking the 458win. or the Lott ,(I see no need for pushing a heavy .458 bullet to higher Vel.s) and I was just wantin to know the advantage of a 45/110 over a 45/70 loaded to simlar pressures.
Myself Im happy with 1800fps or so with a 405gr. bullet out of my GG.
I've got a real kicker a 7.5 LB 375 H&H,And I don't shoot it off the Bench

I 'm thinking the only true advantage to the 45/110 is the use of heavier or longer bullets. And I see no reason why a Handi can't handle equal pressure with the 45/110 as it does with the 45/70 ...
I'd just like to have Modern 45/110 loads just as we have modern 45/70 loads ...[/quote]

I'd be careful expressing views like that around here if I was you Buckeye, I got a prety good schellacing for expressing somethig quite similar.

Sorry guys, I'm just not capable of letting this one go.

I tried to keep my big mouth shut but was astounded when after being told that the 45-70 wouldn't handle big bullets like the 45-90 would we were treated  to a data spec for the 45-120 that pushes 500 grianers to a mere 1430 or so fps.

Lyman shows data in the Ruger section using the Postell design 535 grainer at 1760 fps. Granted you won't get there without reaming the throat a bit, but that is still 330 fps above what the 45-120 does, and in the Trapdoor section, they show loads using the same bullet being driven to 1520 fps and a 500 grainer to 1425 fps, a dead ringer for the 45-120 load shown in this thread.

I ain't knocking shooting black. And I ain't knocking slow loads. I ain't even knocking Montana.

I would however like to encourage those who THINK they may want to try on one of those super long cases to give a try to a box of 500 grainers driven to BP velocities (you can reproduce ANY OF THEM with smokeless data) and see if you really want to open your chamber up to that kind of performance. Realize, that such velocities with smokeless will recoil LESS that the same velocity with black, as black requires charges weighing twice as much and more to get there and more powder means more recoil. I'd hate to see anybody here with a barrel they don't use and can't sell because no one else wants it either.

If one of these big cases is your dream, fine, that's a good thing, more power to you. If you want to see what it will be like first, just load up your Handi with some loads of appropriate bullet weight and velocity. Maybe it will ring your chimes, and maybe it will just ring your bell. There is a reason our great grandfathers quit shooting those cartridges, and it weren't fashionable anymore was real low on the list.

The fact is a 1:20 twist barrel is a 1:20 twist barrel, won't matter what it's chambered for. Long range BP shooters these days are shooting twists as fast as 1:16 in their 45's. They are finding that MOA shooting at long range needs the extra spin.

There, I've said my peace on this.

[Deadeye47]

Quick...are you going to use that 4-D outfits reamers...if so post progress..heck..post pic's if possible!!!