BC 45-70 lengthened to 45-110???

[quickdtoo]

Never found any Goex load data other that the obvious 120gr, just smokeless and T7....T7 is a lot easier to find than Goex and I don't have any 1f Goex, got a fair amount of 2f,3f and 4f though....I also thought the 2f T7 would have a better burn in the short barrel and produce the best velocity considering the short barrel. I probably won't be shooting it all that much, I only ordered 20 brass cases, so that's all I'm gonna get in one range trip and the rifle will weight in at over 12lbs so the recoil shouldn't be all that bad.

Thanks,

tim

[Deadeye47]

Quote JPH45: Lyman shows data in the Ruger section using the Postell design 535 grainer at 1760 fps. Granted you won't get there without reaming the throat a bit, but that is still 330 fps above what the 45-120 does, and in the Trapdoor section, they show loads using the same bullet being driven to 1520 fps and a 500 grainer to 1425 fps, a dead ringer for the 45-120 load shown in this thread.

I ain't knocking shooting black. And I ain't knocking slow loads. I ain't even knocking Montana.

I would however like to encourage those who THINK they may want to try on one of those super long cases to give a try to a box of 500 grainers driven to BP velocities (you can reproduce ANY OF THEM with smokeless data) and see if you really want to open your chamber up to that kind of performance. Realize, that such velocities with smokeless will recoil LESS that the same velocity with black, as black requires charges weighing twice as much and more to get there and more powder means more recoil. I'd hate to see anybody here with a barrel they don't use and can't sell because no one else wants it either. "



Yes...I know that no matter how much lipstick ya put on a pig....it's still a pig.....but I think this is just one of those lil projects that a guy wants to do.....if nothing more than go for the "shock and awe" reaction....not an awful large amount of money involved here....we're not altering a heavily ingraved Holland and Holland double rifle here.... I see no harm in a guy piddling around with a $103 (or less in the case of a 22") barrel..( not counting suppies of corse!! :roll: ) regardless of how much lipstick ya put on it..... :wink: Just my :money: I'm just going for the 45-90 myself though....I don't like that much lipstick on my gals... :-D  :-D       P.S. All aboard!!!!  The "Whacky Wagon" now boarding!!!  :toast:

[quickdtoo]

Quick...are you going to use that 4-D outfits reamers...if so post progress..heck..post pic's if possible!!!

I think so, unless the local smithy will do it for a reasonable amount, gonna check with him first. Elk Ridge rents reamers and they are closer but charge more, but they also rent multiple pilots for cheap and from what I've read, a pilot that fits well will produce a better chamber. I'll keep ya posted... :wink:
Tim

[Deadeye47]

Quick...are you going to use that 4-D outfits reamers...if so post progress..heck..post pic's if possible!!!

I think so, unless the local smithy will do it for a reasonable amount, gonna check with him first. Elk Ridge rents reamers and they are closer but charge more, but they also rent multiple pilots for cheap and from what I've read, a pilot that fits well will produce a better chamber. I'll keep ya posted... :wink:
Tim

Cool!! have fun....

[Cottonwood]

For those that may be interested in the Quigley Match with their Buffalo Classic rifles and I will even extend to you JPH45 an invite to this match.

The fact is a 1:20 twist barrel is a 1:20 twist barrel, won't matter what it's chambered for. Long range BP shooters these days are shooting twists as fast as 1:16 in their 45's. They are finding that MOA shooting at long range needs the extra spin.

Not a totally true statement:

Only some get a 1:16 twist, but most are 1:18 twist... There are Springfield Trapdoors that compete very well at long range with a barrel twist of 1:22 using just a 500-gr 1881 Govt RN bullet.  Some have re-barreled to a 1:18 twist.

BPCR is not about FPS and how fast one can attain the speed of his bullet, but shooting the old way, and just how far one can shoot accurately  

INFORMATION

* Any Traditional single shot or lever action rifle .375 cal or larger (No 1 Rugers okay, lever actions, single loaded only)
* Any cast bullet (gas checks okay)
* Any safe powder charge (black or smokeless)
* Any metallic sight (no tube sights)
* No hooked butt plates or palm rests.
* Same rifle to be shot throughout the match.

MORE INFORMATION

* Eight Shots each at three (3) of six (6) metal targets each day. Targets from 225 - 804 yards.
* All shooting done from sitting position cross-stick position except 225 yard off hand target (total 48 shots for score)
* Registration and sighting in on Friday evening, and prior to the shooting.
* Squadding tickets issued at registration Please do not pre-register

Even More Information

* Bring enough ammo, lawn chairs, cross-sticks, sunscreen, spotting scopes, binoculars, etc.
* All spotting and coaching to be done by the competitors
* No beer or booze allowed on the property
* Vendors welcome at no charge
* Period clothing is requested, but not required
* Boy Scouts in charge of concessions
* BEWARE of rattlesnakes
* All pets must be on a leash at all times

Qustions call: Al Lee Jr at 406.356.7746

If you want an application for the 40 shot Montana 1000 yard Championship Buffalo Rifle Match to be held on July 16, 2005 send an SASE to F.R.&P.C., PO Box 579, Forsyth, Mt 59327

[JPH45]

Montanan, you seem to be the one to ask. I"ve been looking for matches of this kind here in the southeast for two years now, can't find any. Perhaps I'm not looking good enough, or not able to use my resources as well as others. Could you help me find something on my side of big river?

NOT A JAB!......I think you miss my point about velcoity, a 500 grain bullet at 1400 fps is a 500 grain bullet at 1400 fps. To get an idea of what it may have been like to shoot something like the 45-120, simply loading up ones 45-70 to that level will give an approximate idea. This will be good for studing trajectories and such, but it will fail on a reproduction of recoil as the 45-120 is burning an extra 80 grains or so of powder to get there. 80 grains is a lot of ejecta mass. It will easily add 3-5 lbs of recoil for every 5 grains of powder. Run the figures through a recoil calculator. You can use 50 grians for the smokeless charge. This will be very close to heavy Trapdoor data.

It is interesting to note that the majority of competitors in NRA BPCR are using either 40-65 or 45-70. Some shooters are using 45-90's and there is a smattering of 110's 120' a few 50s and some 38's. Venturino speaks of a shoot off involving a 40-65 and a 45-90 for the nationals one year. (Don't remember the details now)

[Cottonwood]

Montanan, you seem to be the one to ask. I"ve been looking for matches of this kind here in the southeast for two years now, can't find any. Perhaps I'm not looking good enough, or not able to use my resources as well as others. Could you help me find something on my side of big river?

BPCR.NET"Dedicated to shooting and enjoying the black powder cartridge rifle."  This is really the best source of information for what you seek.

NOT A JAB!......I think you miss my point about velcoity, a 500 grain bullet at 1400 fps is a 500 grain bullet at 1400 fps. To get an idea of what it may have been like to shoot something like the 45-120, simply loading up ones 45-70 to that level will give an approximate idea. This will be good for studing trajectories and such, but it will fail on a reproduction of recoil as the 45-120 is burning an extra 80 grains or so of powder to get there. 80 grains is a lot of ejecta mass. It will easily add 3-5 lbs of recoil for every 5 grains of powder. Run the figures through a recoil calculator. You can use 50 grians for the smokeless charge. This will be very close to heavy Trapdoor data.

Actually I do understand... YES with the 45-70 a shooter can do what ever he or she wants to.... I know some are going to say but you have been giving us all this inforamtion of these other cartridges.  Yes I did, because you asked.  I don't disagree with what you have to say.  With shooting smokeless loads I can accomplish that power factor of the 45-110 load or the 45-120.  I can't with black powder loads... the long cartridges have much to do with the period correctness etc of the loads.  That is why I shoot a 45-90, and if you have followed any of the writtings of Mike Venturino he even says that it is probably the best cartridge for long range shooting in BPCR.

I haven't really advocated the 45-3.1/4" cartridge simply because it was not a cartridge even involved in the Great Buffalo Harvest era.  Remington Peters did not come out with this cartridge until 1892 which was long after the Harvesting of the Great Plains Bison Herds.

Here is a write up that Mike Venturino did on the subject Buffalo Hunters and Hunting Buffalo  I want you to notice a paragraph that is about 3/4 of the way down.

The same thing could be said for Sharps rifles, plus the fact that set triggers (double set types in Sharps and single set in Remingtons) were also very popular. Factory records for the Sharps company still exist, and researchers have determined that up to 1876 the .44-77 cartridge was most popular followed by .50-70. After 1876 the .45-70 was tops.

But shooters get these long cartridges to fill a need of their own, and by doing so, if they want the full potentual out of that cartridge it can only be had by an appropriate charge of black powder and not a charge of AA 5744.  The reason I love BPCR so much is that I have had my fill of smokeless powders and even cartridges like the 50 BMG with its 2,000 yard range... it just don't trip my trigger like it does others.

It is interesting to note that the majority of competitors in NRA BPCR are using either 40-65 or 45-70. Some shooters are using 45-90's and there is a smattering of 110's 120' a few 50s and some 38's. Venturino speaks of a shoot off involving a 40-65 and a 45-90 for the nationals one year. (Don't remember the details now)

Your right about the 40-65 or 45-70 which you will find alot of shooters in the BPCR Silhouette matches using.  If you come to a long range buffalo match like the Quigley you will find a host of 45-90's, 45-100's and 45-110's for the long range abilities.

If you check out Shiloh Rifle Forums you may find a connection as well for some BPCR matches both Sihouette and Long Range Matches through the guys that shoot Shiloh Sharps Rifles.

I hope we all gain a mutual understanding here..... and most of all have fun shooting what we shoot.  

[JPH45]

Montanan, can you pass that Bar-B-Q sauce this way, I've lots of crow to eat. Turns out there is a club 2 hours east in Georgia that has matches every month, they even have a Fun Gun class that allows shooting of ones lever, bolt or break open (AKA Handi Rifle) they are shooting swingers and paper at 200-600 yards, alternating match types each month, pretty impressive (They also do a Quigley Bucket match) Guess I'm gonna have to figure which of these barels I'm gonna shoot, or if I'm just gonna bite the bullet and get a Buff Classic. Gonna have to lay in a store of black too. And find a good plain base bullet, and make some sticks, and get a real cartridge box, and fix up a practice range, and lay in a whle bunch of lead, and............lube, and................. :grin: Thanks so much for your help on this,

John

[Cottonwood]

John

I extend my hand in an electronic hand-shake here.....

BTW - Welcome to the club  :-D    :-D    :-D

[Deadeye47]

Geeze I love this forum......

[quickdtoo]

Uh oh....Buffalo Arms just called, bullets and brass are both back ordered, will be at least 2 to 4 weeks before they ship..... :cry:

[tomaldridge]

A friend told me I coould still shoot .45-70 cartridges in a .45-90, like .38 Specials in a .357.  Does that work, and if so, how well?

[Cottonwood]

A friend told me I coould still shoot .45-70 cartridges in a .45-90, like .38 Specials in a .357.  Does that work, and if so, how well?

It can work, BUT you must clean and scrub your chamber real good after using 45-70 cartridges.  If you do this long enough, as it was reported to me by several in BPCR, you will ring the chamber over a long period of time and use.

I personally have never used 45-70 cases in my 45-90 and never will.

It is not going to produce good accuracy simply because your causing bullet jump for the bullets to meet the lands of the bore.

[JPH45]

Montanan, Your handshake is welcome. Sorry about my bad attitude, it gets the better of me once in a while, I'm sorry it was you on the recieving end. How much difference is there in the accuracy gained by the sight plane length of a 32" barrel over that of say a 22 or 26" barrel. Is it enough to warrant the 32" barrel?

[Cottonwood]

Montanan, Your handshake is welcome. Sorry about my bad attitude, it gets the better of me once in a while, I'm sorry it was you on the recieving end.

No problem, glad we have a harmonious out look now  :-D

How much difference is there in the accuracy gained by the sight plane length of a 32" barrel over that of say a 22 or 26" barrel. Is it enough to warrant the 32" barrel?

Here at Long Range BPCR REAR SIGHT STAFF ANGLE ADJUSTMENT FOR LONG RANGE SHOOTING  Darryl Hedges has a real good explination that I think will help you in this question.

I think you can approach a short range course of fire with dingers and swinging gong targets with the 22" barrel using a Pedersoli Target Sights using the USA 437 Cabine sight for the Springfield Trapdoor, but if you wanted windeage adjustable the USA 473 for $5.00 more is what I would try.  This is very period correct as far as sights go.

If you wanted to re-stock to the Buffalo Classic buttstock you can order those from H&R 1871, but to me at $69.00 they is a bit much  :shock:   It has to be what trips your trigger  :lol:

The nice thing about the above mentioned sights is that if, down the road you get a 32" barrel for the 22" model you can switch the sights out and have the 32" barrel drilled and tapped for those sights as well.  It will give you the best of both worlds having a 22" Cabine Classic and then a 32" Buffalo Classic.  Both will have a 1:20 rifling twist and can use the same loads.

I hope this helps ya out, also click into my signature link and see if there is any information on my website that can help you out as well.

[quickdtoo]

Got a start with the 45-120 build. Received the following from Cabelas:

Lyman 45-120 Die set #7460506  $35

Montana Precision cast Bullets .458" 500gr Flatnose  50 @$20

LBT Heat Treated Solid Bullets .458" 405gr WLNGC   50 @ $14

Still to come from Buffalo Arms:

45x3 1/4" Bell Cases  20 @ $42

458" 405 Grn. Cast Bullets 50 @ $16

Barrel will be here Tuesday.... :grin:

[Bis]

Montana- You can not believe how much I have enjoyed reading these post on the 45/70,90,110,120.
 I have a question about one of your statement, since I am going to try my luck at reloading my 45/70 Sharps.
 You said that black powder would out shine smokeless at long ranges, How is that. Doesn't the bullet come out of the tube at the same speed with BP as smokeless if loaded to the same velocity. It just seems that x grain bullet traveling at x speed will not know the difference between BP and smokeless.
 Thanks

[Cottonwood]

Montana- You can not believe how much I have enjoyed reading these post on the 45/70,90,110,120.
 I have a question about one of your statement, since I am going to try my luck at reloading my 45/70 Sharps.
 You said that black powder would out shine smokeless at long ranges, How is that. Doesn't the bullet come out of the tube at the same speed with BP as smokeless if loaded to the same velocity. It just seems that x grain bullet traveling at x speed will not know the difference between BP and smokeless.
 Thanks

Bis

Here in this artical Long Range Accuracy, by Mike Venturino I believe he says it quite well here.

I met a guy yesterday at our Gun Show here in town this week-end who for what ever reason used a 45-110 and in trying to get a good accurate load played with IMR 3031 is lucky to be alive today to talk about it.  For he in trying to get better loads with a Shiloh Sharps 45-110 almost blew him and his Sharps up.  He told me that the forearm stock blew off the Sharps and was split up its center as well as other obvious signs of stress  :shock:  :eek:  :shock:

He like so many was trying to create a load that was faster in feet per second, flatter in trajectory etc..... as he put it.  "I had it all with my black powder loads, but tried to do it better with smokeless"  

Because of the extra space available in the case such as comparing the 45-70 to the 45-120.  Someone just because, will always want to try to add more powder, to get more power, and more speed, just to see if it can't be done to get that flatter trajectory.  The pressure spike with smokeless powder is greater on ignition and so I can only add a WARNING for those that will try.

Later on we will look into the differance using AA (XMP) 5744 with its printed FPS data for the 45-2.1" aka 45-70, 45-2.4" aka 45-90, 45-2. 7/8" aka 45-110 and the 45-3. 2/5" aka 45-120.

Or you all can look at Accurate Arms Load Data for Obsolete Cartridges  Yep they call them obsolete cartridges.  But compare them yourself.

I do know that when I loaded using AA5744 smokeless powder in my 45-70 and 45-90 the groupings were inconsistant as compared to the same bullets used with Goex FFg black powder.  I had unburnt powder left in my bore as well.  The results were obvious to me as my targets proved the end result.  I've never had un-burnt black powder left in the bore.

I settle for black powder loads because they are consistant each and every time.

Coming from a muzzleloader background it was very easy for me to make the transition from muzzleloader to BPCR shooter.  But it is always hardest for a smokeless reloader/shooter to transend into BPCR because they think smokeless does better.

I don't know if any of you have seen the movie Quigley Down Under, but here is one of the most famous line readings of the movie:

Elliott Marston: Ah ha. Legendary Sharps.
Matthew Quigley: You know your weapons. It's a lever-action, breech loader. Usual barrel length's thirty inches. This one has an extra four. It's converted to use a special forty-five caliber, hundred and ten grain metal cartridge, with a five-hundred forty grain paper patch bullet. It's fitted with double set triggers, and a Vernier sight. It's marked up to twelve-hundred yards. This one shoots a mite further.
Elliott Marston: An experimental weapon with experimental ammunition.
Matthew Quigley: You could call it that.
Elliott Marston: Let's experiment.

Here's one thing you can try with comparing smokeless to black powder:

Take and piss in both  :shock:  now dry them out... now after making sure your powder is dry.... its time to reload some cartridges.  Your smokeless loads now will just go fissssed and you may just hear the primer go off.  But your black powder load with go Ka-BOOOM with no problems  :grin: your black powder may smell like piss but it went off,  why is that?  

You will find this with any of the other faulk powders as well.

Here is a group that a friend of mine shot with his Shiloh Sharps 45-110 using black powder and iron sights.  The load data is as follows: Load was using Buffalo Arms 348 stretched cases, 105 grs. Goex 1F, Rem 9 1/2 primer, a 0.060 LDPE OP wad and 550 gr. Paul Jones Creedmoor bullets seated so as to be 0.020" off the lands. I cast these bullets at a 30-1 lead/tin ratio.


Here are some more pics at this link of Rick's shooting ability using black powder loads.  His shooting station and a glimps into his reloading and casting area.  You can also see his BIG 50 on his wall.
More of Rick Mulherns Shooting

Any one that has a mind to, bring your reamed up Buffalo Classic to the Quigley Match in June.  We can run a little side match during the free time.  I will have my reloading dies there for 45-70 and 45-90 and I will have a mess of 550-gr PJ Creedmoor bullets.  Others with 45-100, 45-110 and 45-120's will have to bring your own dies.  But I will have the powder AA5744 for you to load.... I of course will use Goex FFg  :grin:

Let's experiment.....

This could be real fun    

"I don't know where we're goin', but there's no sense bein' late." Matthew Quigley

[Bis]

Montana- Thanks for the reply, you are not very comforting, I was planing on using IMR3031 with a max load of about 47 grain using Rem. 300 grain JHP.  The reasons for smokeless are 1. none of the local gun shops (nearest one is 50 miles one way) carry BP and 2. after years of front loading I wanted to avoid all the mess.
 Thanks again for all the info you have provided on this post, I have sure learned a lot.

[quickdtoo]

Triple 7 Is readily available and Hodgdon shows loads for it....just an alternative. Goex is not easy to find here, either.... :cry:

[Big Blue]

You guys are so weak! The devil would have a field day with the lot of you. I first discussed the BC with Montanan on January 19, 2004 at 8:23 PM, the same day he picked up his BC, and I was able to hold out until January 23, 2004 before I bought a BC. Now he has you all talked into this 45/90 scheme, and I for one plan to hold out at least another couple of days before I fold like a cheap camera and go for the 45/90.    You can only resist temptation so long, but at least put up a little fight.  :twisted:

Don

[Cottonwood]

You guys are so weak! The devil would have a field day with the lot of you. I first discussed the BC with Montanan on January 19, 2004 at 8:23 PM, the same day he picked up his BC, and I was able to hold out until January 23, 2004 before I bought a BC. Now he has you all talked into this 45/90 scheme, and I for one plan to hold out at least another couple of days before I fold like a cheap camera and go for the 45/90.    You can only resist temptation so long, but at least put up a little fight.  :twisted:

Don

Don now that was one of my Buffalo Classics... my first one was purchased in March of 1999  :shock:  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D

Now... I'm counting the minutes until you fanally decide to ream up... or leave your Buffalo Classic as is  :wink:  :twisted:  its a haunting thought

[Big Blue]

I'm thinking a second BC barrel would be the way to go. It would allow me the use of the 45/70, and a new 45-90. My memory is good, but not that good, I had copied a lot of info off the old H+R/NEF site, and one subject was your second BC. Those Thunder Ridge sights were also discussed on the night of Jan. 19, 2004, with Badnews Bob. Memories!

Don

[Big Blue]

Thought about it! That's about all, though....

http://4-dproducts.com/chamber_reamers.html

 I have to thank you for posting this link. Not only for rechambering tools, but also a great source for recrowning tools. These tools are so expensive to buy, but rental is a breeze. For a $20.00 rental fee, I can give my rifles a nice 11 degree crown. Definitely the way to go.

Thanks,
Don

[Cottonwood]

I'm thinking a second BC barrel would be the way to go. It would allow me the use of the 45/70, and a new 45-90. My memory is good, but not that good, I had copied a lot of info off the old H+R/NEF site, and one subject was your second BC. Those Thunder Ridge sights were also discussed on the night of Jan. 19, 2004, with Badnews Bob. Memories!

Don

Ah Don you got a good memory some of us have CRN  :-D  then effected by SMS.   But if I were doing chamber jumps such as in reaming up, having it done in a second barrel would be, for me anyway, the only way to go.

The reason being is that in case one does do that ream up, and then what if you don't like the new felt recoil jump.  Going from 45-2.1" to 45-2.4" is not that bad, but there is a big differance in 45-2.7/8ths and then all the way up to 45-3.2/5"  I would strongly suggest that the black powder loads you use for the later two mentioned are with Fg and not FFg.  They will understand what I mean when they touch them off  :shock:  :eek:  

We won't be able to peel that look    off their faces.  They will also understand why I said that they should change out the buttstock to a shotgun style buttstock which helps to displace that felt recoil  :shock:  

This last week-end at the gun show in town, I met a guy who has a real nice Shiloh Sharps in 45-2.7/8th aka 45-110.  Nice tiger stripe maple, MVA telescopic 6x tube sight and a recoil pad by Limbsaver.  I looked at him and he simply said... its my shoulder and no one elses that I have to please.

You all have a good one... I will be leaving for vacation here this afternoon and be gone until next monday the 31st when I return in the late evening.  You all behave  

[Big Blue]

Montanan,

Enjoy your vacation!


Don

[quickdtoo]

Have a safe trip, Jon!!

Don, thanks, but I have to give credit for that link to MSP, IIRC.... :wink:

I do have bit of a quandry about a reamer rental...4-D doesn't mention pilot availability which can be very important to an accurate chamber or muzzle facing(crown)...guess I'm gonna have to call em to find out. Elk Ridge has a very informative web site concerning barrel work, you might want to check it out. They also have a page on bore dimensions which might be of help to the 38-55 owners.

http://www.reamerrentals.com/directory.htm

http://www.reamerrentals.com/reamers.htm

http://www.reamerrentals.com/barrel_bore_size.htm

[Badnews Bob]

I kinda like my .38-55..... still need better sights on it thou. :-D

[Big Blue]

I'm wondering what kind of throat you'll end up with if you rechamber. Also will it be tapered in the rifling. I never understood how, following SAAMI standards, some throats are shorter than others of the same caliber, in rifles of different manufacture. If I rechamber for the 45-90, I want to know I can shoot very heavy bullets, and not be limited by the length of the throat, as in the H+R 45-70.

Don

[quickdtoo]

Got the barrel! Looks new to me, just like the barrel I bought from H&R. Gonna order the reamer next as soon as I get the brass! This is gettin exciting!!! I feel like a kid with a new toy!!! :-D  :-D  :-D