Poor Groups with a .30-06. Advice?

[Will_C]

I am hoping to get some advice regarding poor groups from my new .30-06 Browning A-bolt. I'll try to describe the situation clearly, so any advice can focus on what I should do differently.
I bought the gun around Christmas. When I bought the gun, I bought a box of Winchester 150 grain Sivertip bullets. The gun was cleaned, and I made 100 or so passes through it with J-B bore compound. I mounted a Leupold 2.5-8x scope, a proven scope from another rifle. Off to the range.
I cleaned the gun after 3,6,9,13, and 20 shots. I shot  1.1" and 1.4" 3 shot groups.That seemed to indicate good things were in store. The gun was cleaned throughly after this session.
When my reloading gear for the gun arrived, I assembled loads of IMR-4350 (56-59 grains) and Nosler 150 grain Ballistic Tip bullets. In all of my other rifles (.222, .243. .25-06, 7mm-08)  the Ballistic Tips have given the best accuracy. Case prep was my usual method (partial resizing, cases trimmed, tumbled, etc.) I am a meticulous reloader. The primers and the powder were from the same supplies that have given proven results in other guns. When I shot the rifle, my groups were all over the paper. Probably the best group was 3.5"!  I know that I am not a champion quality bench shooter, but I have shot many sub-inch groups with other rifles, and I got those promising results with the factory ammo.
I have loaded up some more .30-06 with IMR-4064 and W-W 760. I don't know what could have caused the other wild groups, though. Do you have any suggestions for me? It will be a few days before I can get back to the range.
Thanks for reading this long post1
Will

[gwindrider1]

Will,

That's a puzzler.  After rereading your post, and thinking on it for a few minutes, I'm still blank.  The only question which comes to mind, is to ask if you have a "Boss" on your barrel?  If so, is it possible that the initial shooting has vibrated it loose?  Have you checked the tension on the action screws, and all the scope mounting attachments?  Maybe try using Mag. primers with that 4350?  

From your post, I can tell that you are an experienced handloader/shooter, so I have to assume that you will get it sorted out.  Wish I could help.  Maybe there are some sharper minds around here that can!

Best of luck with it!   George

[Will_C]

Thanks, George. No BOSS, but I will check action screws. I also have new Leupold mounts and bases that just came in, so I will check the old ones for tightness when I remove them to install the new ones. I may also buy another box of factory loads for a check, as I know what they are capable of producing. I am puzzled too. I have a Browning .243 that went from 1.75" groups with factory ammo during break in and sighting in, to .5" groups with a few different loads. I just wished it was not so cold, or I would run off and shoot today.
Will

[Hcliff]

Buy another box of factory ammo.  This will take the variable out of the ammo and see how the gun itself is firing.  After checking the action screws check to see if nothing migrated in between the barrel and stock, Leaf, bug, etc.  That can throw off the  shot pattern.  It sounds like something is loose on the gun.  The loads sound like they should shoot.  Good Luck

Hcliff

[Dave in WV]

If everything is tight, maybe your rifle doesn't like 150gr BTs. It does happen. You could try 165gr BTs.

[ricciardelli]

If you want to use those 150 grain bullets, I would suggest using:
N-204 From 55.0 grains to 59.0 grains
 Winchester WLR Primer

My second choice would be:
IMR-4895 From 44.5 grains to 51.7 grains
 Winchester WLR Primer

The other thing you might want to do is stay with the best load you obtained with the IMR-4350, but start changing seating depth...

[Darrell Davis]

Hey there Will_C,

This is just IMHO, but I personally would go to the slower powders - 4831,  AA3100 etc. to start with. Also, I think you will find a better match to the 06 with the 165 or possibly 180 gr. bullets. You may go through a number of different brands/types of bullets before you find the "sweet" spot for your present rifle.

Then one other trick I have learned and read about in recent years is working with bullet seating depth.

The old and oft recommended way of seating the bullet a few thousands off the lands, DOES NOT ALWAYS WORK.

Rick Jamison writes in one of the publications that he feels changes in seating depth will have a simaliar effect to the changes possible with the Browning "boss.'

I have have found changes in in bullet seating depth to affect the groups in my A-Bolt .300 Win. Mag., and in fact the loads which have shot best are a bit longer then will work through a standard A-Bolt magazine. Because of the design of the mag. this was not a problem with the Browning.

Keep em coming! :wink:

[Dand]

YOur last post you mention its really cold now.  Did you shoot your factory ammo groups and home load groups in approximately the same temperature / humidity conditions?  If your second range session was done at significantly colder temps, you might also have significantly different humidity and your stock may be contributing to the problem.  Just a guess but here in Alaska a few days at 0 can make the humidity go to zero and things noticeably dry out.

Also, did you check your case lengths when reloading?  Are your full length resizing the cases or partial?

Like others say, seating depth came to my mind as a thing to experiment with as well.

 I too would try another brand / style of bullet just in case that is the problem.

Just some ideas HTH. The one A bolt I worked with (338 win) was amazingly accurate with REm Factory 250gr loads. Those guns can shoot!

[Selmer]

This suggestion is already out there, I'm just saying it again.  MAYBE TRY A DIFFERENT BULLET WEIGHT!  I only say this because I have had a very similar experience with a M70 FWT classic.  It shot the 125 gr. factories I got as a "bonus" for buying it fairly well, and I took this as a good sign.  I, like you, love Nosler BT's and shoot them out of all my guns, and thought the 150 gr. BT would be a great deer bullet for this gun.  However, I tried 4350, 4831, RL19, RL25, H380, and 4064 with many different powder weights, primers, and bullet seating depths, and couldn't get a group under 2".  I decided to try 165 BT's as a last resort, it's still a little finicky, but I have several different loads that shoot under 1" and the 165 BT is an outstanding deer bullet.  Give it a shot, I've been through this already!
Selmer

[IntrepidWizard]

06 lovws 165-168 grain BT's with 4350-50 year record with me-------over 50 years

[Will_C]

Thanks for the advice. I have installed new rings and bases, and they are tight!! The ones that came off were not loose. Temperature differed by no more than 10 degrees between the 2 sessions. I checked the barrel channel, no obstructions. Guard screws were tight (I never touched them), so that not a problem. Here is my plan:
1. Buy another box of the same factory ammo that shot decently. (I will also check their OAL.
2. I will reseat the bullets I have loaded now at various OALs, to experiment there.
3. I will order some 165 grain bullets for future loads. I have no great plan to shot 150's, I happened to have some that were given to me by a buddy I load for.

It is about 0 degress here, and will be cold for awhile. I'll let you know what I figure out. Thanks again,
Will
Will

[Dusty Miller]

You'll get it.  Perseverence is the key.

[Will_C]

Well, I finally got to my range today. I am much happier :-D . The loads with IMR-4064 shot well. I shot 1.5" five shot groups with both 51 and 52 grains of 4064 (the first 3 shots with 52 grains went into .92".) The WW 760 (55.0 grains) also gave me a couple of 1.5" five shot groups. At least I know I have a load that will shoot "minute of deer."
I plan to experiment with 165 grain Ballistic Tips, and 180's too, but I feel much better about things from my post back in January. Thanks for all the help and suggestions.
Will

[dave375hh]

When you order your new bullets get flat based 165's I've owned two rifles that wouldn't shoot BT's at all. But they both shot FB to 1/2 MOA. I have no idea why, they just didn't shoot BT's less than 2.0". They were a .222, and a .270.

My all time favorite '06 load is 57gr IMR4350 WLR 165gr Nosler Partition. I've tried this in 10-12 rifles and it shot great in all of them, no exceptions.

[Patriot_1776]

I'll mention a couple of things you might try.

1.  Try an uncoated bullet, such as the Nosler BT in either 150gr. or 165gr.

2.  If they still don't group exactly how you want them, try them (the boat tails) at a longer distance; maybe 150-200yds.  I've heard of stories about boat tails being able shoot tacks at longer ranges (150yds. and farther).  Whereas, at 100yds. or less, they won't shoot for anything, no matter what you load them with.

I believe the principle around all this, is bullet stabilization.  Boat tails have a tendancy to take longer to stabilize because their center of gravity is more towards the center.  With flat base bullets, the C.o.G. is more towards the rear, and stabilizes much faster.  What is the point? I think the other principle behind that is, once that bullet exits the muzzle, the expanding gases just kick that thing out of there.  When using a flat base, the position of the C.o.G. is able to withstand the buffet better than the boat tails; therefore, the flat bases have less tendancy to wobble while exiting the muzzle.  So with boat tails, being they take that extra time to stabilize, their accuracy suffers at closer ranges.  Hope this helps some.

 
-Patriot

[lowertroll]

I have had the best results in an '06 with IMR4350 and H414 for accuracy and velocity with the 165gr Balistic Tips and Hornady Spire Points using Win LR primers and bullets seated at one caliber.

[Questor]

Will_C:

Have you changed your rifle rest? I've got a rest that I can never shoot good groups from. I don't know why. When I go back to sandbags everything is fine again.

[wolfpack]

I had the same problem with my -06 and 150s. Now that you have a good load fine tune it by adjusting your seating depth- I start out .025 and work in .005 at a time until I'm just shy of the lands. Another option is a Lee factory crimp die. Sounds funny but it helped my -06.

[MickinColo]

Will_C,

I’m glad you found your way with that rifle. Happy shooting.