Author Topic: Rant! I'm Disappointed In Ken Hackathorn!  (Read 1699 times)

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Offline BamBams

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Rant! I'm Disappointed In Ken Hackathorn!
« on: January 18, 2005, 04:11:53 AM »
Does anyone know who he is?  If not, he's one of the few "premier" combat shooting trainers in America.

I trained under him many years ago, bought most of his videos throughout the years that followed, and now I see what he's all about!  MONEY!

He told us in no uncertain terms, that using a laser sight on a combat pistol was a totally dumb thing to do.  In fact, he went so far as to say that people who use them are "Gun Shop Commandos."

Well, he was right in my opinion.  I still hold firm to those beliefs - not because he said it, but because it makes sense from a strategic point of view.

But ALAS, now he appears in most major gun magazines with his face on the "Crimson Trace Laser Grip" adverstisements.

Basically saying that "everyone needs them."

Kinda makes me feel sick inside.
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Offline Brett

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Rant! I'm Disappointed In Ken Hackathorn!
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2005, 04:50:09 AM »
Could be he just had a change of heart?  Nothing will take the place of proper training and lots and lots of practice. However if time or $$$ don't allow for much of either I can see where a laser site on a defensive handgun could be of great help. Just my  :money:
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Offline Nightrain52

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« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2005, 05:15:22 AM »
SHOW ME THE MONEY. That seems to be everyones motto anymore. Seriously I can see in some instances where a laser sight on a self defense handgun would be beneficial but a person also needs to learn how to use regular sights. A lot of people don't take the time to see what it's like to shoot in the dark. Throw in the adrenaline, nerves, hard breathing, and trying to get a flashlight on your target I can see where a laser sight would be a benefit. :D
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Offline Graybeard

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Rant! I'm Disappointed In Ken Hackathorn!
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2005, 06:06:16 AM »
Maybe he only finally got around to trying a CTC laser grip and found out just how great they really are. Nope for sure they don't pay me a red cent for anything but I'm here to tell you I'm a strong proponent of them. With my short barrel guns I can shoot far better groups with them than I ever could with the sights on the guns. And at night I can actually see the laser but sure can't the sights. There is a CTC Laser Grip equipped gun by my pillow each night.

It is also a tremendous training aid to teach you just how unsteady you are. I high powered scope will show you your weaves and wobbles for sure but there is nothing to show you and the world how steady or unsteady you are like a laser bobbing and weaving on target.  :eek:  I wish every single self defense gun I own had them but they aren't made for all of them.


Bill aka the Graybeard
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Offline BamBams

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« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2005, 06:13:45 AM »
I've got reasons for not wanting to use a laser sight at night, and maybe, if I feel energetic enough, I'll explain later, but my whole point is that it's a bummer when someone preaches you the gospel and then decides to change it - apparently for a paid endorsement.
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Offline Dali Llama

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« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2005, 07:52:02 AM »
Quote from: BamBams
I've got reasons for not wanting to use a laser sight at night, and maybe, if I feel energetic enough, I'll explain later.
Do aforementioned opposition have to do with fragility, susceptibility to battery failure, invisibility in daylight, etc., ask Dali Llama?
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Offline BamBams

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« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2005, 09:52:19 AM »
Hmmmm....seems like you been doing some thinking Dali.....

ALL the above plus not wanting to become a human target in the dark.  You also cannot ID your target with a laser in the dark, so you wind up having to use a flashlight anyway.
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Offline OrangeWing

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« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2005, 02:28:43 PM »
If someone had a gun pointed at me with the laser pointed at either my chest or head it sure would make me think a few times about what I was going to do next.  If it's on your chest don't you think that any movement will cause you to die?  I know the points about seeing where the laser is coming from to return fire.  BUT, Graybeard has made several points that are very true.

Offline Dali Llama

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« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2005, 02:51:28 PM »
Quote from: BamBams
Hmmmm....seems like you been doing some thinking Dali.....

BamBams say that like it be unusual activity  :?  :? for Dali to engage in, respond Dali Llama. :?  :?
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Offline Old Syko

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« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2005, 03:33:37 PM »
Unless I'm mistaken the original point was that Hackathorn is a sell out which in my opinion he certainly is.  To preach against something for so long, then stand behind it for a price is two faced.  If he hadn't had the time to test it before hand, he shouldn't have commented until he did.  If he had used them before, what changed unless it was just a matter of dollars.  Do such things not show a man's true colors?

Offline Graybeard

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« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2005, 03:40:51 PM »
Quote
Do aforementioned opposition have to do with fragility, susceptibility to battery failure, invisibility in daylight, etc., ask Dali Llama?


I don't consider any of those as valid arguments against the use of CTC laser grips. If you bash the gun hard enough to damage them there is a good chance you've done other damage to the gun. And even if they are out of commission you STILL have the same sights they gun would otherwise have had. Battery failure? Give me a break. Those batteries last for years. If you worry about it change the battery every 2-3 years. I'm still using the same ones in mine for over 5 years and it's as bright today as when I installed them. And again IF it fails you still have the same sights as before you put the grips on. Duh! I have no trouble seeing the CTC laser in mid day sun light. It's bright.


Quote
I know the points about seeing where the laser is coming from to return fire.


Folks who believe this is a problem are watching too much TV and movies. It don't work like that. There is no cute little red beam from the gun to the target like in the movies.


Quote
ALL the above plus not wanting to become a human target in the dark. You also cannot ID your target with a laser in the dark, so you wind up having to use a flashlight anyway.


OK I've argued that NONE of the above have any validity. So now let's tackle this one. If you can't ID your target then quite simply you have NO TARGET. But if that laser hits their face you can dang sure ID them. A flashlight for sure will give away your location far more effectively than any laser sight will.

Guys lasers don't show the cute little red beam of light like in the movies. That's not real world. Oh sure if there is fog it will and to a lesser extent so will it in the rain. But otherwise, nope ain't happening. There is a red light at your hand but will not generally be visible to anyone unless you have the laser on their head. If it's down on their chest most likely they will not be able to see the source.

If you've not tried the CTC Laser grips then quite simply ya really don't know what you're missing. There are NO down sides and a bunch of up sides to them.


Bill aka the Graybeard
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Offline BamBams

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« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2005, 04:01:36 PM »
Perhaps there are a few things that haven't crossed some folks mind's yet?  I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have crossed my mind either had I traveled a different path, but alas, I have been there, and I've done that, and I've got way too many T-Shirts.  Now I'm in the mood to explain my position on "Laser Sighting," so take it for what it's worth.  You don't know me, and I don't know you, so check my info against the pros at Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, The FBI, Special Forces, and the Surefire Academy before you take to heart the following.  And keep in mind something, in a gunfight, especially a night fight, there's a really good chance you are going to get shot, but a lesser chance that you will die.  Never let a gun shot stop you from fighting back. And think for a second - your home defense gun cost how much?  Your laser grips cost how much?  Surely you can afford a Level III vest to put by your bedside also.  *smiles*

That was my disclaimer.  Now, I've gotta say that I was once a non-believer in using a flashlight for the exact same reasons that GB stated. I would, and did, argue this subject with a lot of folks, just as vehemently as GB.  I was subsequently fortunate enough to be able to attend a variety of shooting and self defense training on these same subjects thanks to the generosity of my NRA training counselor,  and the IDPA sponsors who wished for me to begin teaching the same to others.  I have, formally, practiced night fire with live rounds at least 20 times in the past two years, and as recently as 60 days ago,  along with a number of experienced, NRA certified pistol instructors. I have done so with .45 ACP, .357 Mag, 12g shotgun, and high power rifle. I have proven to my complete satisfaction everything that follows regarding nightime shooting.  There is no substitute for safe practice.  90% of shootouts are in the dark.  That is how people should practice, but many places do not allow this because of the risks associated with taking novice shooters out on the range at night where you cannot always see where their muzzles are pointed.  

Why am I qualifying myself?  Simple, I wouldn't want anyone to think I came up with all this from TV or the movies.

Sooooo....short of buying GenIII night vision goggles or scopes.....here's what you've got to deal with:

With a flashlight, you illuminate, and probably blind the perp if it's something like a "Surefire,"  then you move really quickly to a place where the beam wasn't coming from.  You have now ID'd the target, and possibly multiple targets.  He shoots where the beam was - you are simply not there anymore.  You either moved to the left, the right, up or down, or even prone.  If you've trained and prepared for such a thing as this, and have set up your home defensive strategy properly, you have fled behind cover immediately and CANNOT be hit easily at all.

OR....because, in .2 of a second, you were able to get a complete polaroid of his full frontal body with your high intensity light, you move and fire immediately at the stunned perp with a triple tap, and he never knew what hit him.  Then you fly to cover and reload for the next guy and wait to see if your man is down to stay.  Shooting on the move takes - you guessed it - alot of practice.

By the way, the old FBI technique of holding the light at arms length when you press the button is no longer advocated by professionals. With a laser on the gun, this is not even an option as your point of aim would be wayyy off the target and the laser becomes useless to you until you fire it up again and wave it around until it meets the targets center of mass again.  In those precious seconds, you've been fired at plenty of times.

With a laser, you illuminate and shoot.  You cannot ID a target with a laser sight effectively.  At the range of most shootouts, 3-10 yards, all you get is a pinpoint - a tiny red dot.   I've been down this road in training, and things happen wayyyy too fast to try and analyze what is behind that pinpoint of red light. I'm sorry,  but we'll just have to agree to disagree on this "point"  GB - no pun intended.

For example. A guy at night who is yawning and stretching and holding a rolled up magazine or newspaper looks exactly like someone with a club attacking you.  It could be your own spouse! You cannot ID that with a laser.  Well okay, maybe you can, if you've got the time to concentrate on that pinpoint for a second or two - and aim it just right, BUT YOU DON'T HAVE THAT KIND OF TIME! -- in situations like this.  And how the heck can you be sure, in total darkness, that when you switch the laser on, it's already going to be pointed in his face?  Most likely, you'll be moving it around trying to ID the target, and BOOM, you're dead.  Taking that kind of time will certainly get you blown away.  You can't be trying to thread needles during a gunfight in the dark.

You've got to remember something.  The perp is already ready.  You are the one that is probably being awoken from a dead slumber.  He's already on guard.  99% of the time, the perp has the advantage, and your goal is to swing that back around.

In another frightful example.  Let's say you hear the perp 10 yards away in the black of night.  You point your laser at his forehead.  Hmmmm.....doesn't look like anybody you know.  You quickly step aside 4 feet to the left.  He fires at where the red dot was and misses you.  You return fire.  So far so good. Oh my!  He had my little 3 foot tall child standing in front of him as a hostage and barrier.  You can't ID that with a laser either.

Okay, here's another.  Your sitting in your "safe room" upstairs, waiting for the burglar to come to you.  You've been trained to do that, and it's the smartest thing to do.  You hear footsteps and the doorknob turning.  You've yelled out several times, "Who is there!"  You've haven't gotten a response, you are ready, and this is it!  The door opens, you turn on the laser, you see a shoulder, you swing the laser to get a better shot, and your head is blown off by a sawed off shotgun.  OR......same scenario, but you fired first and killed the neighbor's teenager who is drunk, listening to his mp3 player at full blast, and used to live in a cookie cutter house just like yours!  Oops...

Yet another.  You go out to dinner and you've had a nice meal and maybe a cocktail or two.  You're wanting to call it a night now. Upon your arrival home, you see that your front door is partly open. You had your babysitter there watching your children.  Time may be of the essence because you live 30 miles from the nearest police station.  You can't bear to just drive off for help.  Your neighbor isn't home, and your cell phone was accidently left at home.  As a good man, you decide that possibly saving some lives at this moment is definitely the right thing to do.  You've now got to "clear" your own house, but all the lights are off.  Good luck with that laser pal.  The person in that room might just be a bound, gagged, and hoodwinked babysitter, and while your flashing your pin point at the surprise of someone's presence,, the perp is now stabbing you in the back with a knife repeatedly.

Of course, there are a million possible scenarios for night shootings, and if you go over as many as you can, and think to yourself - "I have a high intensity flashlight, or I have a laser," I believe you will realize rather soon which one is preferable to the other.  Neither is perfect, but one is clearly more useful than the other.  Of course, if you'd like to know more about what I've learned regarding this subject over the years, just feel free to ask, so long as it isn't too personal.  *smiles*

I have done a fair amount of shooting in the total dark.  I am 100% convinced that the best way to go is with a Surefire Z2, or something similar, but, you've gotta learn the techniques and tricks, and above all, PRACTICE realistically.  A Surefire will utterly wreck someone's night vision - I can promise you that!  Heck, it will wreck your vision at high noon on a sunny day, but again, you've gotta get the training.  And no, I've got no vested interest in Surefire, but their lights are the best - which is why they are standard issue to FBI, Secret Service, Special Forces, Marine Recon, and on and on. There are many things to think about in a night fight.  Whether or not you are backlit?  How to use concealment.  How to disorient.  The role noise plays in the situation.  When to back out completely.  etc etc etc

Another thing is the muzzle flash.  Unless you handload with the right powder and use a semi-auto pistol, there is the possibility that after you fire the first shot, or you adversary fires his sawed off shotgun in your direction, you'll be seeing a thousand little orange/red dots in front of you.  A good flashlight will wash most of that away.  Now don't even think you can simulate this by just turning off some lightswitch, or going out back.  There is a big difference between eyes that have been asleep for hours in total dark, and eyes that have been in the dark for 15 minutes. If you decide to practice, wait until there is no moon, no city lights, etc and plan on camping out for awhile - no campfire either.  That is the only realistic way I know of.  I am not suggesting you do this on your own unless you are thoroughly versed and disciplined in range safety.  In fact, I recommend you do it formally, cuz if you shoot yourself in the foot, or you shooting buddy, I don't want it hanging over MY head.

Yet another thing is the effect of the light on the perp.  Professional flashlights deliberately create a cone of light in front of you which prevents the perp from seeing exactly who and what they are up against. One technique involves making the perp think that you are two or three people -- another plug for training.  With a laser, you don't get that either.  What are the odds of you being able to hold your laser on target long enough to burn out one eyeball on the perp?  If you keep it on that long, you are dead meat unless you've got some serious cover between you and him.  

The only practical use I have for laser sights is for dry fire practice.  I use a laser bore sighter for that purpose.  It is a great way to help find the best grip on your handgun to reduce the arc of movement and become a more accurate marksman.

Conversly,  I think tritium night sights are a gift from above when it comes to shooting in the dark.

As far as seeing a beam from the laser.  If the perp has been shooting first, (hopefully not) there will be enough smoke for him to perhaps track the beam to it's origins.  Yes, I know that's a stretch, but you're trying to take away ALL his possible advantages right?  I would never suggest holding a laser beam, or a flashlight, on the target during a gunfight.  The idea is:  illuminate - move - illuminate - move.  With a flashlight, used CORRECTLY, there is also a really good chance that the perp will think that is ALL you have and make even more mistakes in your favor.  With a laser, he knows he's in for a gunfight.

I just shot my laser against a white wall in total darkness.  The red dot was less than 1/4" with about 1/2" inch of redish haze around it at the most. Keep in mind this is a WHITE wall, and not a black balaclava.  This was at 4 yards.  I then shot my flashlight at the same spot for the heck of it - battery check - and I had to feel my way back to the light switch cause my vision was gone for a few moments.

Finally, Hackathorn knows better.  There is NO POSSIBLE way he could have changed his ideas about laser sights.  He trains the armed forces, and they'd drop him like a hot potato if he suggested using a laser in scenarios similar to one's I've described.  On the other hand, perhaps he's retired himself from doing that now because he's totally converted to using lasers? Maybe that pays better? I still think he's probably sold himself out for some easy money.  I've e-mailed and left him voice mail.  I just can't wait to hear what he has to say on this one.  My advice: Sell the grips on eBay, take the money and invest in a professional light and some training.

Looking forward to having all these comments invalidated.
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Offline xnmr53

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Rant! I'm Disappointed In Ken Hackathorn!
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2005, 10:29:42 AM »
BamBam,

A laser sight is just that, a SIGHT. It is not, repeat NOT, an illumination system. When I turn the laser on, my shot is right behind it, and the muzzle flash will be a whole lot more obvious.

When you get to a certain age, you will find that conventional sights of any kind, including tritium, are not all that useful in dim light, because your depth of field has collapsed to the point where you can't get them into focus. In those situations, the laser can save your life.

Also, there is nothing that says that you can't carry both a flashlight and a laser-equipped weapon. Id your target and then move, and unload on it from another position.

By the way, if you really want to discuss a stupid idea, let's talk about the practice of mounting flashlights on the weapon. Talk about boresighting yourself!   :grin:

Offline Dali Llama

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« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2005, 12:34:19 PM »
Quote from: BamBams
I've e-mailed and left him voice mail.  I just can't wait to hear what he has to say on this one.  
What did Hackathorn say, inquire Dali Llama?
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Offline Dali Llama

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« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2005, 01:10:03 AM »
Quote from: Dali Llama
Quote from: BamBams
I've e-mailed and left him voice mail.  I just can't wait to hear what he has to say on this one.  
What did Hackathorn say, inquire Dali Llama?

btt for BamBams - Dali Llama say we all may be able learn something from Mr. Hackathorn's "conversion." :-)
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Offline BamBams

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Rant! I'm Disappointed In Ken Hackathorn!
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2005, 02:22:39 AM »
I never received any response from Mr. Hackathorn
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Offline Dali Llama

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« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2005, 09:05:34 AM »
Quote from: BamBams
I never received any response from Mr. Hackathorn
Thanks for reply, say Dali Llama. :-)   Dali say that be shame, as perhaps we could have all learned something from Hackathorn's reasons for "change of heart"....
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Offline BamBams

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« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2005, 10:50:52 AM »
Well, silence can often speak volumes also.  I take his non-reply as an answer to my original question.  Of course, If I wrote an email saying, Hey, I've got a class of 200 people who need shotgun training, and they are paying $300.00 a piece, would you like to be there?  I bet I would have gotten a response the same day.
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Offline xnmr53

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« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2005, 02:50:05 PM »
I'm reminded of my younger and dumber days, when all the hidebound old farts were screaming about these new-fangled speed loader contraptions. At that time, some officers couldn't qualify with them, and some couldn't use them at all. Well, we all know who was proved right in the end.

Same thing with automatics.

Same thing with polymer frames.

Now it's laser sights.

Offline Dali Llama

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« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2005, 03:54:44 AM »
Quote from: BamBams
Well, silence can often speak volumes also.  
Yep, it shur do, comment Dali Llama. :grin:  :grin:  :grin:
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Offline leverfan

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Rant! I'm Disappointed In Ken Hackathorn!
« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2005, 04:37:02 PM »
Ken Hackathorn was on American Rifleman television last week explaining why he changed his mind and how his tactics have developed to include the use of a laser sight.  My memory isn't good enough for me to try to put words into Hackathorn's mouth for him, but some of the folks posting to this thread might want to keep an eye out for the next time that show is on.

Just an FYI, because I don't know him and I don't get paid by Crimson Trace, but this has been an interesting thread.
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Offline JPSaxMan

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« Reply #21 on: February 21, 2005, 05:28:42 PM »
Bams, wow, you musta had some spare time on your hands to write that one reply. Wowsers :-D .

I might be toast if a break in occurs here from what's being talked about. I have a semi-auto .22 rifle at the side of the bed ready to rock and roll if need be. The worst part is the master suite is the third floor of the house, then down the flight of stairs to the 2nd floor which consists of a guest room and the bathroom, then down to the main floor which is the living room etc. If some perp is breakin in, I'd have to hear him makin an awful lot of noise in order for me to take action. And that semi don't got no laser or any type of illumination device on it. I don't have a light on me at all. Only a phone to call the cops and a gun to take a shot at the perp. And the stairs down from the master suite are very creaky, so there's no sneakin up on him. And I'm certainly not gonna stay up in the room and let the SOB rob my house. So it's a no-in situation. Do or die.

I did have a robbery here a few years ago. My brother was in from NC and his Camaro was parked out on the front lawn, and ma came in from NJ and her car was parked in the driveway. No one entered the house, but they went through the Camaro where they got a hold of 200 CD's, a .45 S&W, and my brother's amplifier. My mother's car was locked, so that was a failure. Worst part was that my brother's Camaro had an alarm system on it, but he had disabled it due to technical difficulties. Ever since that incident, I've kept a gun next to the bed and usually a phone handy. And a year or two later, a New York State Trooper caught the SOB toyin around with my brother's handgun, and now he's paying restitution. There is justice in this world :twisted:

I just hope I never have to face that scenario again.  :D
JP

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