Author Topic: Right to Protest! (Read 4919 times)

powderman · « **Reply #30 on:** January 22, 2005, 03:27:29 AM »

Burning our flag should be illegal, thousands of men and women have died defending it. None of that crap has anything to do with freedom of speech.They are really defiling AMERICA. They don't like it here, LEAVE. POWDERMAN. :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

williamlayton · « **Reply #31 on:** January 22, 2005, 03:42:02 AM »

Just thinking, not arguing, mind you. If all this is the case then we ought to be up in arms against the countless thouseands who fly flags over car lots, businesses, homes, the post office, county, city and state buildings in all kinds of weather, handle them improperly, store them improperly, get them dirty, lay them on the ground, fly them til they are worn out and then throw them in the trash--not dispose of them in the proper manner by burning them.
Blessings

FWiedner · « **Reply #32 on:** January 22, 2005, 04:01:56 AM »

Quote from: Ironglow

The same type judges that declared that killing pre-born boys and girls was simply a matter of "privacy"....a term that is NOT mentioned in the Constitution...

True, the term "privacy" does not appear in the body of the Constitution.

But neither does the word "freedom".

In fact, the only time that the word "freedom" appears in the Constitution is in the text of the 1st Amendment in specific reference to FREEDOM OF SPEECH.

The concept of "privacy" is provided in the text of the 4th Amendment (The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects), and that concept further developed in the text of the 5th (nor shall private property be taken ...).

As to the distinction between "free speech" and separately distinguishable "physical acts" that should not be considered "speech", I provide but one example to rebut your analysis:

When a man performs the physical act of extending the middle finger of either hand in a manner to make it clear that the gesture is directed at YOU, is that man "saying" anything or is he simply performing a "physical act"?

I believe that most here are acutely aware that the man is trying to "say" something. Most people witnessing this gesture would likely respond to it in some manner, thereby affirming that communication, or speech if you will, was indeed, intended.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #33 on:** January 22, 2005, 05:39:43 AM »

Quote

Our "free speech" clause in the constitution was originally put there to allow POLITICAL dissent.

Gee...I wonder...perhaps it was put there because our forefathers.. who also burned flags and effigies of those in power at the time...and of the country we were trying to get our freedom from???

Mac

BamBams · « **Reply #34 on:** January 22, 2005, 06:20:36 AM »

There's no question about it, free speech is so important. Which is why I'd like to sue the telephone companies for all my money back....however

I think Jim was just offended to the max by what he saw. It IS offensive, but we certainly cannot outlaw certain types of speech just because some people get offended by it. The axe cuts both way, and the next thing you know, you won't be able to express yourself at all because someone else finds you offensive. It would seem that we are already headed in the direction.

Jim, if you really want to whoop that guy, then he's got you right where he wanted you to be. I think it's better to just write him off as the fool that he is, and to realize that this country is absolutely LOADED with fools. On the other side of the coin, it's clear that you aren't one of them.
I'm proud to know you. In fact, recently I've been thinking that a lot of you guys just don't give yourselves enough credit. The majority of you are TRULY a cut above the average, selfish, self-serving citizen.

jh45gun · « **Reply #35 on:** January 22, 2005, 08:37:22 AM »

Ironglow good post, Powderman I agree, Thanks Bambams!

Brett · « **Reply #36 on:** January 22, 2005, 08:40:02 AM »

Question: Could burning the United States Fag be considered an act of treason? Could it be considered giving 'phycological' aid to the enemy?

Mac11700 · « **Reply #37 on:** January 22, 2005, 09:14:52 AM »

Quote from: Brett

Question: Could burning the United States Fag be considered an act of treason? Could it be considered giving 'phycological' aid to the enemy?

Nope...and what enemy?

Mac

ironglow · « **Reply #38 on:** January 22, 2005, 09:20:48 AM »

I still stick by our country and our brave, unselfish troops and defend the little ones that can't defend themselves..

Anyone with a lick of common sense knows that the "privacy" excuse used by Libs to perpetrate a holocaust....was purely trumped up for the convenience of some scumballs that dislike using self-control. They don't want ANY responsibilites, although they DEMAND all kinds of "rights".

The self-centered spoiled brats that have never done anything for anyone but themselves....I have no time for...they are millstones on the neck of society..

If the Constitution doesn't allow what their little twisted hearts desire...well some twisted, Liberal judge will find a way to circumvent the original intent!

So many it seems want to stick to the "letter" of the law, which is often misread, intentionally...by some Liberal judges.

Where is the sense of "natural law"...thank God some of our high judges, such as Clarence Thomas and Antonin Scalia consider that higher law when they deal with the Constitution.
Just as the original framers did...

Scalia is considered by most as the "finest mind" in the Supreme court...even though when they disagree; I tend to agree most with Thomas..

NUFF SAID!!!

big medicine · « **Reply #39 on:** January 22, 2005, 01:16:55 PM »

Well here is my 2 cents. I have never understood all the time, effort and money spent on this flag burning stuff. trying outlaw it, ban it ect, ect.

It is a piece of cloth, by some idiot burning it, all it does is show what an idiot he/she is. It DOESNT change the way I feel about MY country. I gave almost 8 years of my life to support and defend. I lost some friends. There isnt any idiot that can change how I feel when I look at the flag because they are stupid enough to burn it. It doesnt hurt anyone, it just shows how stupid a person is. Although being stupid should be a crime, it isnt.

BUT on the other hand I have always wondered why it is against the law for other people to exercise their freedom of speech? Like burning a cross. I in NO way support that either! but what is the difference? Other people get arrested for spweing "hate" and yet it's ok for another group to do the same thing. It just depends on who the 'hate" is directed at. Either way it isnt right.

We have spent millions of dollars on attempts to make ammendments so some numb nuts cant burn a flag. What will it change, you cant force people to like where they live or have respect for others, some people are just plain stupid. I think that money could have been spent on a lot better things. Now if one of these idiots catches him self on fire, that would be worth a good laugh, but then they would expect the gov tax payers to take care of them.

Nightrain52 · « **Reply #40 on:** January 22, 2005, 02:52:10 PM »

Not to make light of a serious subject but in this day and age if said protester did catch himself on fire while burning the flag he would probably sue the company that made the matches and the company that made the flag and would probably win a big settlement.

powderman · « **Reply #41 on:** January 22, 2005, 03:49:13 PM »

NIGHTRAIN52. We can always hope. Several years ago apunk did exactly that, caught himself on fire with the gasoline. It was on tv, I cheered. POWDERMAN.

Hooker · « **Reply #42 on:** January 23, 2005, 05:46:47 AM »

There you go folks it's a safety issue. They makes us ware seat belts just in case we are in a accident.
Make them not burn the Flag in case they have an accident. They could catch on fire, catch something or someone else on fire. Things like this have been known to cause blunt force trauma.

Our Flag does not represent our government.
If you want to protest the government by burning something burn a congressman. I'll give you a list to start with :-D

Our Flag is not just a piece of cloth.
It's the Flag my daddy fought under and the one they rapped his coffin in.

Our Flag is a symbol of honor show honor when you display it.

The Cross is a symbol of love don't use it as a sign of hate.

Pat

MSP Ret · « **Reply #43 on:** January 23, 2005, 06:21:53 AM »

I lost some good friends also, and as far as the flag just being a piece of cloth or a cross just being a couple of pieces of wood, don't screw with them near this old man!!!....<><.... :x

I love my fellow man without fault, and abhor violence of any sort, but as I would tell those I would be forced to deal with for 32+ years in law enforcement, "don't mistake kindness for weakness, it will be one mistake you will regret immediately and for a long time"....<><.... :grin:

powderman · « **Reply #44 on:** January 23, 2005, 10:28:51 AM »

HOOKER. Well said Sir, I concurr.
BRETT. Yes Sir, burning our flag DOES give aid and comfort to our enemies. POWDERMAN.

big medicine · « **Reply #45 on:** January 23, 2005, 10:35:25 AM »

Isnt the TRUE meaning of being an American in each of our hearts? What anybody does or says will not change how I fell about my country. People like John Kerry threw their medals and uniforms in protest, does that change how any of us that served feel about the military or our own service? For me it does not. It doesnt cheapen what myself or my friends did or gave. You can not FORCE someone to feel the same way as I do or you do. I look at my flag with awe in what it stands for, and yet some bitterness that 241 of my fellow Corpsman and Marines died in Berirut and this country did nothing but a little lip service and then pack up and come home, because we dont want to offend anyone. Would I burn a flag or disrespect my uniform? No way in He!! But some people have no Honor, and we cant force them to have honor.

Now if someone came to burn my flag or the flag that covered my Dad's casket. Well they might just find them selves in a world of sh$%, but if they want to spend their money and then torch it, it just shows whan an idiot their are.

I find the whole thing of burning flags, crosses, ect offensive and repugnant. Does it hurt me? It pi$$es me off! But it doesnt hurt me.

This past summer at the county fair I wanted to tune up some young punk because he stood in front of a WWI memoral and flipped it off. I called him an idiot plus a few other choice words. I REALLY wanted to tear him a new a$$, but walked away and stayed out of jail. There are things that happen every day that are disrepectful and offensive. There are some real idiots in the world, but I think we have more important battles to fight. I would personally like to take these numb nuts and send them to Cuba, or Iran, or Iraq or what ever little sh$% hole they think is better than the US and let them find out for them selves. What I dont want to do is send them to jail and support them.

A free country has it's draw backs. It also gives freedom to idiots. It allows murders and child molesteors to walk free. It allows a media to down right lie or spew 1/2 truths. It allows criminals to become elected officals. What is a greater disrespect some idiot burning a flag or seeing the likes of ted kennedy serving in office?

Brett · « **Reply #46 on:** January 23, 2005, 12:19:21 PM »

Quote from: Mac11700

Quote from: Brett
Question: Could burning the United States Fag be considered an act of treason? Could it be considered giving 'phycological' aid to the enemy?

Nope...and what enemy?

Mac

Mac, where have you been boy? We are fighting a war on terror. Terrorist are our enemies. I for one do not want to give them any encouragement by letting them think that the people of our country are divided or weak.

Hooker, I'm with you all the way. If a protester wants to burn an effigy of the President or of a congressman that's fine with me. But the flag and cross are not symbols that should be taken lightly. Many good men and women have payed a great price defending what it is that these symbols stand for. Do not disgrace their honor.

ironglow · « **Reply #47 on:** January 23, 2005, 12:47:48 PM »

We must face it gentlemen; some of the worthless pieces of effluent have no concept of either disgrace OR honor!!!

Old Syko · « **Reply #48 on:** January 23, 2005, 02:38:04 PM »

Found a new avatar and had to post in this thread to show it off. Pretty much sums up my feelings on the subject.

big medicine · « **Reply #49 on:** January 23, 2005, 03:01:07 PM »

Old Syko,
Now that is priceless!

jh45gun · « **Reply #50 on:** January 23, 2005, 03:39:27 PM »

Quote from: Old Syko

Found a new avatar and had to post in this thread to show it off. Pretty much sums up my feelings on the subject.

GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD ONE! Too darn bad they all do not get lit up!

Cowpox · « **Reply #51 on:** January 23, 2005, 04:46:01 PM »

I don't even know where, or how to begin. I know what I am feeling, but I can't imagine being able to get it into words which will make any sense at all. I have only been hanging around here for a few months, and all I know about any of you is from the knowledge, philosophies, and wit you have all exhibited on the many threads and forums on this special web site. I was away from home for the last few days, and instead of being present while this astounding thread unfolded, which may have caused me to overlook what has really happened here, I had the privilege of watching it unfold in one incredible hour. It started with outrage at the despicable act of burning the American flag. A banner which was assembled from cloth of three different colors, and meant to symbolize all that is great and good about this very improbable and wonderful country, and the ideals it was founded on. It started with expressed outrage, and desire to render bodily harm to the richly deserving perpetrators. There was intervention on behalf of the perpetrators rights to use this act to express their dissatisfaction of the many flaws and injustices that exist in our country today, and in it's past. It started to escalate to where it was getting close to an argument and personal attacks on each other. Suddenly, points of view started to moderate. Each one of you have proven that you completely understand that every opinion in the good old USA is precious, and even those you find distasteful, need to be protected. To deny one is to remove validity from the rest ! suitably subtle apologies were offered and accepted all around. Somewhere up there, I think the Founding Fathers are nodding their approval, and a host of Minutemen cheered, knowing that what they willingly gave their lives for still flourishes!! I doubt most of you even realize that you have defeated the very purpose of burning the flag. The flag burners do NOT burn a flag in public for anything as honorable as seeking the righting of wrong ! They burn the flag for the same reason they burn Bibles, demand removal of anything Christian from public places, and wave Nazi symbols in front of Synagogs and at WWII conventions. They do it to instill rage. They do it to try to get good people so angry that they will commit illegal acts and say things that make them forget everything they believe in. They do it in an attempt to get you down to their level. They do it to try to get you so low in the sea of humanity, that you will have to reach up to touch bottom. You beat them !!! If they wanted to force change, they would not burn the American flag. They would instead burn the symbols of those who cause the injustices. However, I would expect that in the face of public burning of Presidential seals, banners with Donkeys or Elephants, political campaign banners, "Gay Rights" and "Pro Choice" banners, there would soon be a law against demonstrations that burned anything !!! Just some of my thoughts. Congratulations on your victory, and thank you for giving this warm glow you have instilled in anyone who reads this great thread. Cowpox

jh45gun · « **Reply #52 on:** January 23, 2005, 04:51:08 PM »

Good reply cowpox. Yea I can only hope those who went before me that died defending that flag has a smile over our pro-flag views. Jim

Old Syko · « **Reply #53 on:** January 23, 2005, 05:10:49 PM »

Cowpox seems to me you put it into words quite well. To stoop to the level of folks who would perform such acts as flag burning would possibly be the beginning of the end. Heard an old saying once"Never wrestle with a pig because you both get dirty and only the pig enjoys it." :grin:

williamlayton · « **Reply #54 on:** January 25, 2005, 12:17:57 AM »

IF you think that anyone who disagrees with you is an idiot and they do not have the simple intelligence and common sense God gave a housefly---Then I suggest you have need to sit down, take a VERY deep breath, and re-think what this country is all about and how it got here.
This argument, here, is so out of hand as to be considered pure rubbish and is a good example for others to call conservatives non thinkers, slow and the beginning of a new National Socialist Front.
Folks--We all have opinions, and we have given ourownsselves this right from the very beginning, but you can't go around bashing and mauling the other side unless you give them the same rights to bash and maul you. We have said this was not going to be acceptable in the beginning.
We can have lots of different opinions about a lot of different things and we will never, ever all agree about everthing--I know I been married to the same ol Hen now fer 40 sumthin years and she aint never, ever been right when she disagreed with me.
Blessings

Dali Llama · « **Reply #55 on:** January 25, 2005, 02:02:00 AM »

Quote from: Mac11700

cross burning here in America symbolizes something far more synister...the elimination of a couple of races of Americans...

What be those two races, inquire Dali Llama? :? :? :?

Brett · « **Reply #56 on:** January 25, 2005, 02:40:25 AM »

Well, if protesters have the right to protest in any fashion they choose, even if it is offensive to those who fought for this country or lost loved ones who fought for this country then I believe that we should have the right to think that they are idiots who don't have the common sense God gave a housefly Mr. Layton. Like Hooker's Dad my Daddy too fought under that flag and it draped his coffin when he went to his grave also. It is not the protesting I am against it is the form of protest they choose. To me burning the flag is as morally and ethically wrong as pixxing on a soldiers grave! Let them wave signs & banners, paint themselves pink and jump up and down on the steps of Capitol Hill if they want... but don't burn my flag!

Explain to me Mr. Layton why I am a shameless bigot if I make disparaging remarks about someone elses nationality and would be condemned by "open minded" left wing liberals if I was to burn the Mexican flag for example yet I am supposed to accept the very same act done against my countries flag as a legitimate form of protest and keep my mouth shut?

big medicine · « **Reply #57 on:** January 25, 2005, 03:28:46 AM »

Mr Layton,
My, my. I'm always amazed how bigoted the open minded are. We are talking about rights. Yes these idiots have the right to burn a flag. I have the right to look at them as idiots. I have a right not to like them, I dont have to agree with their views, they sure as he!! dont have to agree with mine. And as long as either causes no real harm to the other, who gives a Sh$%. And Brett brings up a very interesing point. If one was to go "protest" and burn a Mexican flag, or the flag of Isreal, or China or where ever, just how would you feel about that? Do you think people would find it offensive, do you think it would pi$$ those people off? Do you think they would look at those burning their flag as idiots?

Brett · « **Reply #58 on:** January 25, 2005, 03:56:44 AM »

You got that right Big Medicine. How fast do you think your butt would be locked up behind bars for "hate crimes" if you burned the Israeli flag? I'm an American and I view burning the U.S. flag as a "hate crime" against me just as an Israeli, Mexican, Iraqi, etc would view the burning of their nations flag as a hate crime against them.

I don't agree with everything some members of my family do or everything they believe but I'm not going to disgrace the whole family by burning the family crest. You can disagree with some of the policies of the leaders of our country but that does not give you license to insult the entire country.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #59 on:** January 25, 2005, 04:41:41 AM »

Quote from: Dali Llama

Quote from: Mac11700
cross burning here in America symbolizes something far more synister...the elimination of a couple of races of Americans...

What be those two races, inquire Dali Llama? :? :? :?

Jews and African Americans...

Mac