Author Topic: Crud ring, please get me up to speed (Read 2653 times)

S.B. · « **on:** January 21, 2005, 05:45:37 PM »

I just received a new Omega and have never shot the thing. The way the weather man is talking, Illinois won't be much for shooting this weekend either. The dreaded crud ring, where is it? Caused by too hot of a primeing system? Has anyone ever considered fire lapping the bore of their muzzle loader to smooth out the bore for easier loading? If too hot a primer system is the problem why does Black Mag 3 seem to work so much better? I checked the size of the hole through my breech plug and it's not very big. I've seen post on changing the size of this hole, any difference in the crud ring? I used to swab out the bore of my traditional gun, using lead bullets, with bore butter between each shot to prevent builld up of fouling, what can I use with sabot bullets and this gun? This is my first in line m/l and the stainless barrel and plastic, weather resistant, stock seen to be the way to go. Also, I have a Leupold 1 1/2 x 5 VariXIII in the shop and would like eventually mount this scope on this rifle, any suggestions on mounts and rings, I"d prefer to use a detachable ring in case the scope stops working. Does Leupold make detachable rings and mounts for this rifle? By the way, where do you get the .25 priming breech plugs or the different ones for a T/C for that matter? I've seen different shaped ones for the Omega talked about on this forum but never seen them for sale on any sites? One more thing, Who make a bigger trigger guard for the Omega, this thing is so small that I can't get my finger in it at home let alone in the cold timber with gloves on? I've never hunted with a muzzle loader in Illinois when it wasn't cold? I'll bet you guys in the mountains have trouble too?

Keith Lewis · « **Reply #1 on:** January 21, 2005, 07:55:15 PM »

I have a stainless .50 Omega with synthetic stock. I also have the .25ACP conversion (see sticky at head of this site that I wrote). If you can get Black Mag'3 powder that is my recommendation as it is the best thing I have used to date. It does not require the conversion as the 209 primers work OK with BM3. The conversion has a benefit in that the .25 brass is easier to load and unload than the 209 primers especially when your hands are cold. The trigger moves back when you start the hammer back and I do not find the clearance to be a problem. You may have loading problems as I found my barrel a little rough and after 200 up and 200 down strokes with JB Bore Paste on a patch over a brass brush it was a lot better. Or you can shoot 200 or 300 powerbelt bullets to smooth out the barrel then clean the plastic out after shooting them. American Pioneer Powder (get fffg not the ffg as it is too coarse) is my second choice and to locate some in Illinois contact Ron Shaw in Lawrenceville, Ill I think he has a line on it. Black Mag'3 west of the Mississippi is hard to find. Cabelas or Midsouth Shooters Supply will ship it but there is a $20 hazmat fee per shipment so buy a lot at one time to spread out the cost. I bought four pounds and should have bought ten or more. Triple Seven is the last choice for me on powder. It is the source of the dreaded "crud ring". Even with the .25ACP conversion it still makes a crud ring in my rifle. Not as bad but still a problem. I will let someone else talk long on the scope mounting. I used T/C rail mount (same one as for the Encore) and mounted a Simons shotgun scope. If you shoot maximum loads you will want to add a simms limbsaver recoil pad as the synthetic stock rifle is light and kicks like a mule. I will not shoot heavy 777 loads in my Omega as the first one I tried with 100 grains of 777 and a 348gr. Powerbelt cut my forehead and made my eyes water. You will not want to use any lubricants with Powerbelts or Sabot/bullet projectiles. Make sure the bore is clean of oil before shooting. Use some type of alcohol cleaner just prior to loading to clear out all oil (original shipping oil must be cleaned out and can be difficult to get clean). Synthetic stocks can be noisy in brush as they sound hollow. Some have filled the stock with foam filler and/or weights. I personally do not want to carry the extra weight as I hunt Arizona and the hills are steep and the Elk do not stay on the flats. I hope I answered some of your questions. You will want to shoot the rifle a fair amount before you spend a lot of money converting it as it may be just fine for you. Not all Omegas are the same. I have read about some that shoot Triple Seven without any problems but I certainly cannot in my rifle. Pyrodex shoots OK but is really dirty. I have a lot of Goex black powder but honestly have not tried it in the Omega. Good luck and if you want to talk directly contact me at klewisinc@msn.com .

simonkenton · « **Reply #2 on:** January 22, 2005, 12:42:58 AM »

Keith I have read with interest your reports on BlackMag3.
Do you know if a percussion cap will ignite BlackMag3?

str8shooter48 · « **Reply #3 on:** January 22, 2005, 03:46:36 AM »

Simon Check out the website for Black Mag3. Soound like good stuff too me.

http://magkor.com/

S.B. · « **Reply #4 on:** January 22, 2005, 03:48:49 AM »

Keith Lewis, I ask again, where is the crud ring located? Is too hot a priming system the reason for the crud ring? I'm not unfamiliar with recoil or synthetic stocks. Also, familiar with the trigger working in the Omega. Since the trigger mechanism of the Omega is, for the most part, on safe until the hammer is cocked(actually no one can get their finger in there unless they have exceptionally small fingers), why would they design this so small? Illinois is a very cold climate during most muzzle loader seasons, gloves will be a must, the trigger guard opening, even with the hammer cocked, is quite small. I don't know about Arizona but Illinos's weather can be treacherous to say the least. Also, I know that a lot of hunters today, hunt from hunting houses with heat in some but, not me or Illinois where I hunt. Your in the elements here and will be if you want to hunt. This is another reason I traded up to the Omega, the breech end is far more sealed than a traditional gun. Different priming system design breech plugs, anyone kow where they get them?

Keith Lewis · « **Reply #5 on:** January 22, 2005, 06:16:17 AM »

The heavy fouling (crud ring) forms just forward of the powder charge. There are several theories as to what specifically forms it. It is sensitive to the 209 primers and the hotter primers cause more problem. It used to be possible to get 410 primers from Remington but they don't make them anymore. Winchester makes a black powder primer but it is just the regular 209 primer repackaged (a marketing thing). There is a theory that the higher energy in the 209 primer moves the bullet and powder charge up the barrel before complete combustion takes place and the increased temperature causes the sugar based (777) propellant to crystalize and "crud ring" forms. There has been a thread that a guy claims you can use the base of a 209 primer and knock out the dead primer and reload a lower energy primer (rifle or pistol). Depending on the powder you would have to play with this (I have not tried to do this as I already have the .25ACP conversion). I have mentioned the source of the .25ACP in the sticky they ask me if they could post. Other breechplugs are available from T/C but you have to write them as they do not respond to emails. I understand that Black Mag'3 will ignite with any percussion system that is out there. The powder is very fine and I have been told that it will work in a flintlock (I have not tried it but as soon as I get one I will). Looking for a Lyman Great Plains rifle first. As far as the design of the triggerguard I can not answer for T/C but I'm sure they must have heard something about this by now. I expect they may be redesigning the drop block and if they make one with a larger guard they would probably exchange yours for no charge. T/C has been real good at that kind of thing. They sent me my first breechplug when they changed the design and did not charge me for it. I will keep buying T/C products as long as they fit my requirements. They do not make a rifle like the Great Plains as it has a one in sixty twist (not available from T/C). Not sure I answered all the questions; but I tried. I will keep answering as long as you like the answers.

S.B. · « **Reply #6 on:** January 22, 2005, 06:23:16 AM »

thanks, Steve.

simonkenton · « **Reply #7 on:** January 22, 2005, 10:23:38 AM »

Thanks for the info on BlackMag3
I went to that link, very informative.
Looks like I need to bite the bullet on the hazmat fee and get some of this stuff.
My frontline rifle is a Savage. With the wide array of smokeless powder, I don't need to worry about any bp subs. I have a scope on it, and have put a pound of lead shot in the stock, to help with the recoil. Great gun, but big and heavy.
There is a place where I want to go hog hunting in the National Forest. I will have to ride in 4 miles on a mountain bike on a Forest Service trail to get at those hogs. I need a small lightweight gun to hunt this place.
I have a TC Hawken with a trashed barrel. So, I will either get that little 21 inch fast twist barrel from Green Mountain, or else get a NEF Sidekick, and just mount fiber optic sights on it.
I have been shooting black powder since 1966. Call me the wimp, I will admit, I am sick of cleaning up after black powder.
Also I have a nice cap and ball pistol that I never shoot. These take 4 times longer to clean than a rifle.
I have heard so many bad stories about the crud ring and the 777, don't want that stuff.
So the BlackMag3 sounds like the stuff for me, according to that web site it ought to work in my pistol as well.
Funny, on some web sites you hear bad reports about BlackMag3, but nobody has ever shot it, or else, they haven't shot it since 1996.

Keith Lewis · « **Reply #8 on:** January 22, 2005, 11:15:13 AM »

I have shot Black Mag'3 and I have shot it recently. There was a situation that resulted in one batch clumping which really did not affect the powder as it can be soaked and dried and then broken up and it shoots like new. I personally would be a little careful breaking it up. No spark producing pieces and no heavy impacts. I am not sure it is sensitive to impact but I would be careful just the same. I do not expect that any BM3 from now on will have that problem as the factory has taken corrective measures. As I stated I have shot everything that is available except real black in my Omega and Black Mag'3 is way better than the others with American Pioneer the only close one and it is somewhat moisture sensitive and from what I hear will not recover if it is exposed. APP FFG does not give the same velocity as BM3 for equal volume loads. I am trying to get specific information as to the light off characteristics compared with the other synthetics for discussion on types of firearms in which it may be used effectively. I believe it will work anywhere that real black powder will work based on what knowledge I have been able to collect to date. I am completely satisfied with BM3 and do not expect to change to anything else in the near future. Good velocity, practically no fouling, multiple shots in a row with no swab between, easy clean-up, biodegradeable, relatively non-corrosive, less recoil for same velocity as Triple Seven, and excellent accuracy in my Omega. What more can you ask for?? I know; availability and lower price, but sometimes we have to pay for the good stuff I guess.

Bullseye · « **Reply #9 on:** January 22, 2005, 12:01:06 PM »

S.B.

You might just want to shoot the gun before you start worrying about the crud ring. Some Encore and Omegas do not have a problem with the crud ring, which does by the way stump me. If it was just too hot of primers causing it, all 209 guns would have it. There might be others out there that have the crud ring, but it seems like the T/C's is mostly what we hear about. The crud ring is not that bad with mine and can be managed.

Busta · « **Reply #10 on:** January 22, 2005, 12:15:35 PM »

S.B.,

Keith and the others have given you very good advice.

The ignition temp of Black Mag'3 is 333 deg C., the ignition temp of Black Powder is 313 deg C. Yes, a percussion cap will definitely set that off. They say to take some BM'3 between your thumb and finger, crushing it even finer for priming pan powder for a flintlock. If a flint will ignite it anything will.

I have taken two deer with 100 gr of BM'3 and the 200 gr Shockwave out of my SS NEF Huntsman. I just love the powder and have not had any clumping issues with my only jug so far.

S.B. · « **Reply #11 on:** January 22, 2005, 01:02:14 PM »

Sound like from the discussion here that if I have the crud ring problem, I'll need to use a stiff bristled brush and swab the bore between shot to knock it loose? Another question that came to mind, does the ring appear with lead bullets?

bubba · « **Reply #12 on:** January 22, 2005, 01:58:24 PM »

Remington still makes the 410 primers. They are called 209-4 now. I just got a box of them last week at the gun shop.

Keith Lewis · « **Reply #13 on:** January 22, 2005, 03:43:05 PM »

Quote from: bubba

Remington still makes the 410 primers. They are called 209-4 now. I just got a box of them last week at the gun shop.

That is good to hear although it really confuses me as several have been told by Remington that they no longer make the primers. I have tried to get them in the Phoenix, Mesa Arizona area and most shops just look at me like I am crazy. Most say they never heard of a .410 primer "just use the standard shotgun primer" is their answer. Since I went to the .25ACP conversion it is no longer a problem for me but may help others that have not or will not spend the money for the conversion.

AndyHass · « **Reply #14 on:** January 22, 2005, 05:37:57 PM »

The ACP conversion primer is available at www.prbullet.com. It reduces but does not COMPLETELY eliminate the crug ring. My theory is that the 777 burns more quickly than regular BP or pyrodex. So a large amount of the fouling concentrates right in the breech and around where the base of the sabot is seated, creating the dreaded crud ring. This theory would explain both the crud ring and the sharper kick people notice with 777. I would test the gun first and see if it is necessary.
I would avoid lubricants during shooting, especially bore butter. I tried it once and it gummed up the barrel and created a mess for getting sabots down until I cleaned it out.

Kodiak-50 · « **Reply #15 on:** January 22, 2005, 11:36:06 PM »

https://www.dnrsports.net/miva/merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=DSC&Category_Code=primersrml

AndyHass · « **Reply #16 on:** January 23, 2005, 06:39:10 AM »

And yes, I believe Leupold makes some good quick-release mounts for this gun. I used them on a different gun and like the design, you just need to order the correct base.
Be warned that those barrels use up most of the vertical adjustment in your scope with standard rings. You might need to shim the rear of the mount or buy special rings to compensate if this concerns you.

jeff223 · « **Reply #17 on:** January 23, 2005, 12:39:31 PM »

hi Andy,glad to see you are back :wink: i always get a chuckle out of your posts and i need that from time to time

is this crud ring thing only in the TC muzzle loaders?

AndyHass · « **Reply #18 on:** January 23, 2005, 01:28:46 PM »

The crud ring seems to be worst in the Omega, however I have heard of it causing problems to some extent in most other brands as well...Knights, CVA, Traditions.

DannoBoone · « **Reply #19 on:** January 23, 2005, 03:42:16 PM »

Quote from: AndyHass

The crud ring seems to be worst in the Omega, however I have heard of it causing problems to some extent in most other brands as well...Knights, CVA, Traditions.

The "crud ring" is a NIGHTMARE in both my Encore barrels, too. The second
barrel is a Douglas barrel.

S.B. · « **Reply #20 on:** January 23, 2005, 04:18:37 PM »

Has anyone here, or any manufacturer had the crud from one of these rings analyzed to see what it's made of? Does it happen with lead bullets?

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #21 on:** January 23, 2005, 05:06:08 PM »

Quote from: jeff223

hi Andy,glad to see you are back :wink: i always get a chuckle out of your posts and i need that from time to time

is this crud ring thing only in the TC muzzle loaders?

I had a Knight M/L and it got a crud ring when I used triple7 and 209 primers. I always had a hard time loading it a second time. It is not just a Encore problem.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #22 on:** January 23, 2005, 05:11:44 PM »

Quote from: S.B.

Has anyone here, or any manufacturer had the crud from one of these rings analyzed to see what it's made of? Does it happen with lead bullets?

I don't know if anyone that has analyzed it. The crud ring comes with any bullet used. It is mainly in the area where the powder sits and a little further up. It is the last inch to 1/2 inch of seating a bullet that gets hard. I not longer have the problem sense I installed the 25ACP breach plug. I did not have the problem when I used pyrodex with 209 primers. The best thing I can suggest is to go out an shoot your M/L and see what you find.

Keith Lewis · « **Reply #23 on:** January 24, 2005, 04:14:15 AM »

I have been watching this as long as anyone as I have a severe crud ring problem. My barrel is exceptionally tight which I think contributes to the problem. I also live in Arizona and I think that humidity makes it less of a problem. Cooler primers help. I think since 777 is sugar based the ring is likely carbon. I agree that the best thing for you is shoot your rifle and see if you have a problem you cannot deal with then do something else other than use 777. If no problem; congradulations you are one of the lucky ones that can use it.

jeff223 · « **Reply #24 on:** January 24, 2005, 04:54:35 AM »

are you crud ring getters spit patching between shoots?

if so do you still have a crud ring after spit patching?just wondered about this

i allmost always spit patch between shots.i patch the barrel out the first time then i flip the patch over and then run the patch in and out again.the gun loads good every time.only under some hunting conditions will i skip patching between shoots.i have tried shooting and loading without patching between shots and i can load and shoot about 5 shots before the gun gets to hard to load.i dont think i get the crud ring.i have fouling every time but no crud ring.the 777 powder has alot less fouling compaired to what black powder gives.

i use the triple 7 loose with a max load along with 209 primers with great accuracy.its just hard for me to understand this crud cring buisness

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #25 on:** January 24, 2005, 05:36:30 AM »

Quote from: jeff223

are you crud ring getters spit patching between shoots?

if so do you still have a crud ring after spit patching?just wondered about this

i allmost always spit patch between shots.i patch the barrel out the first time then i flip the patch over and then run the patch in and out again.the gun loads good every time.only under some hunting conditions will i skip patching between shoots.i have tried shooting and loading without patching between shots and i can load and shoot about 5 shots before the gun gets to hard to load.i dont think i get the crud ring.i have fouling every time but no crud ring.the 777 powder has alot less fouling compaired to what black powder gives.

i use the triple 7 loose with a max load along with 209 primers with great accuracy.its just hard for me to understand this crud cring buisness

jeff223, I do not know which M/L you are using, but shoot your M/L a couple of times with triple7 and 209 primers with out running a spit patch between shots. No remove the breach plug and look down your barrel. You will see the crud ring where the powder sits. It is a hard black ring about 1 to 2 inches long. You can brush it out and feel how hard it is. That is the crud ring we are talking about.

Keith Lewis · « **Reply #26 on:** January 24, 2005, 04:31:05 PM »

Quote from: jeff223

are you crud ring getters spit patching between shoots?

if so do you still have a crud ring after spit patching?just wondered about this

i use the triple 7 loose with a max load along with 209 primers with great accuracy.its just hard for me to understand this crud cring buisness

Jeff: I have the absolute best crud ring maker. I shoot one shot with a 209 primer and 80 to 100 grains of 777 with a 300gr. sabot/bullet and there is a ring just forward of the powder charge that I cannot remove with one pass of a wet T/C patch. I can sometimes get the ring removed with two passes of the first patch one each side then switch to a dry patch do a pass each side switch back to a new wet patch and do a pass each side then switch back to a dry patch and make a pass each side. If I am lucky I will be able to load one more shot and start the whole mess over again. Or: I use Black Mag3 and shoot seven or eight in a row with no patch in between and all the shots end up in the same spot on the target at 100 yards. Guess what powder I use now?

With the .25ACP conversion I can usually get two shots off with a couple of spit patches or wet patches between shots and one dry patch. Usually by the third shot the loading is getting very difficult even with a couple of patch swabs between shots. Triple Seven is just too difficult for me to deal with. Someone suggested using it for fertilizer in his wife's garden. Sounds like what I may look into. I have already said anyone that wants to come by can have all the Triple Seven I have left for free. I hate the stuff!

daddywpb · « **Reply #27 on:** January 30, 2005, 01:11:37 AM »

S.B.,
Leopold makes their QR base for the Omega, it's the same base used on the Encore. I have one on my Omega with the QR rings. You can take the scope off for cleaning, and it goes back to zero every time - they are great.
Personally, I don't under stand the big issue with the priming system and 'crud ring'. My hunting load is two 50 grain Pyrodex pellets and a 295 grain Power Belt. The holes will touch at 50 yards, and stay about 3 - 4 inches at 100 yards from a hunting position - not sandbagged off a bench. Sure, it get messy, it's black powder...but if I needed a fast follow up, I don't have any problem seating a second shot without swabbing the barrel, and accuracy stays the same. Try shooting your gun for a while before you run out and start buying new breechplugs, and changing priming systems. I've read a lot of threads about the 'crud ring'. Maybe this issue has been pushed by companies trying to sell breechplugs? It's black powder guys, it's going to leave fouling.
I usually swab the barrel between shots, and if I use a dry patch the ramrod will get stuck in the barrel every time. The solution is - don't use a dry patch. I use some stuff called Simple Green. I spray a little on the patch, follow with a dry one, and load. Works for my rifle.
Enjoy your new Omega - it's a great rifle.

Pat Marlin · « **Reply #28 on:** September 16, 2005, 07:39:34 PM »

Quote from: simonkenton

Thanks for the info on BlackMag3
I went to that link, very informative.
Looks like I need to bite the bullet on the hazmat fee and get some of this stuff.
My frontline rifle is a Savage. With the wide array of smokeless powder, I don't need to worry about any bp subs. I have a scope on it, and have put a pound of lead shot in the stock, to help with the recoil. Great gun, but big and heavy.
There is a place where I want to go hog hunting in the National Forest. I will have to ride in 4 miles on a mountain bike on a Forest Service trail to get at those hogs. I need a small lightweight gun to hunt this place.
.

simonkenton- This is an old thread but your bike riding comment caught my eye. Do you do much of that? Reason I ask is I live in the woods fairly remote, and I've been thinkng of putting a rack on my moutian bike, and biking in to hunt. It makes sence cause you can cover a lot of ground, and sneak in pretty quietly.

Keith Lewis · « **Reply #29 on:** September 17, 2005, 06:36:40 AM »

Wow! this thread has been dormant for a long time. By the way any of the bike riding muzzleloading guys need to contact me for a (free) bottle of bike chain lubricant that I manufacture. Won't work in muzzleloaders as it is petroleum based. either klewisinc@msn.com or (480) 986-9208. Won't clutter up this site with non-related stuff.