Author Topic: NEW"HEAVY RECOIL ROUND SHOOTERS" question (Read 1976 times)

GhosTT · « **on:** January 23, 2005, 10:17:54 PM »

OK, this is more of a handgun hunting question.

limiting shots to 100-125 yards maximum and excluding states like Alaska.
What are the benefits of rounds larger than the 44 magnum for hunting.

I'm talking straight walled rounds like the 480,454, and .500SW.

Do they really have a major effect over the 44magnum, with heavy loads?

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #1 on:** January 24, 2005, 02:02:21 AM »

The way your question is presented, I could ask you the same thing. Why do people use 7MM MAG, 300 Win MAG, and so on if a 30-06 will work. I know dead is dead, but if you are hunting black bear or wild bore with a handgun, I would like to have a 480, 454 casull or a 500 in my hand. It is just personal preference. Sure a 44MAG will do the job. Why do we buy cars that can do 120 MPH when the speed limit is 65 MPH? It all comes down to personal preference.

Graybeard · « **Reply #2 on:** January 24, 2005, 03:05:13 AM »

The .44 Mag really is plenty. Really. It's taken every legal animal out there many times except perhaps some of the really rare sheep breeds so hard to get to. This includes elephant and other African big five and the big bears.

BUT a larger bore and heavier bullet is somewhat more comforting if you use cast bullets. The .454 Casull with 325-340 grain bullets is going to give a bit more penetration and can use a wider meplat for more shock transmitted. The .480/.475 is still more of same with bullets of 400-440 grains with wider meplats and full penetration of most anything. About the only thing I can see the .500 S&W offers is more recoil. You're using fatter but no heavier bullets than the .480/.475 so penetration is likely to be less and bullet choice is far more limited. I see it's only purpose in life as a macho kinda thing for folks to say they have the biggest hole in the barrel. Sorry but I see it more as a stunt than a benefit in taking game.

palgeno · « **Reply #3 on:** January 24, 2005, 03:26:36 AM »

Amen, Brother---dead is dead---bigger might make for less tracking---and maybe not----but if macho is fun on a particular day, no shame in that either !!!-- :eek: pg

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #4 on:** January 24, 2005, 05:20:39 AM »

Graybeard, try to find a 500, 575, 600, or a 700 gr. bullet that you can shoot out of a 454 Casull. You can't, but I can out of my 500MAG. As far as bullets for the 500MAG, you need to start looking around, almost all bullet makers have a couple different weights for the 500MAG. Barnes, Sierra, Hornady, Hawk, Speer, Cast performance and I am sure there are others. As far as being Macho, I can care less what others think, it is what makes me happy that counts. Yea there may be a few of those guys out there, but I am sure there are a lot more that would disagree with you on the macho thing. But it is your opinion. :-)

safetysheriff · « **Reply #5 on:** January 24, 2005, 05:33:32 AM »

I've never hunted in Africa, but from the latter part of your question I'll refer you to the following: www.findarticles.com At that site put in the search box any of the following and then scan the list of articles and start reading: handgun hunting ; .44 magnum ; .480 Ruger ; John Taffin ; .454 Casull ; j.d. jones . You'll see why the factory-loaded .480 Ruger is Maybe, just Maybe a little bit more than the factory-loaded .44 magnum -- but not if the .44 is handloaded to its real capabilities with heavy hardcast lead bullets. You'll see why the .454 Casull and above are the real weapons for hunting Africa, although the .44 mag' has done it all. Lastly, if you want a little more of a 'treat', go to randy garrett's website and read what they say about the .44 mag' with heavy bullets. It's informative, and entertaining to people like me!

I've shot many, many .44 mag' rounds -- and find it believable that it will take anything that walks with the right loads. (It's a handful in some firearms -- but it is more readily managed in others.) If you want a practical powerhouse :shock: that is capable of versatility in its loads as well

, you'll see where the .44 mag' is probably the best of the lot.

Good hunting,

SS'

Spyro Andes · « **Reply #6 on:** January 24, 2005, 07:48:23 PM »

Quote from: GhosTT

OK, this is more of a handgun hunting question.

limiting shots to 100-125 yards maximum and excluding states like Alaska.
What are the benefits of rounds larger than the 44 magnum for hunting.

I'm talking straight walled rounds like the 480,454, and .500SW.

Do they really have a major effect over the 44magnum, with heavy loads?

Actually, what is the benifit of a 44 Mag over a 41 Mag?

I bet you that hunters using the 500 S&W will kill more whitetails than all the other game animals taken w/ the 500 S&W combined. Who cares as long as they are having fun!

I do this antelope hunt annually. It is for big antelope. I have shot them with scoped modern long range rifles. I have shot them with scoped handguns. I have shot one with a shorty revolver. I have even shot one with a Browning BPCR.

Just remember... Whatever makes you happy.

If a guy wants to do it his own way or be way over gunned, who cares? Shooters as a whole just get too technical sometimes and over analyze things.

Using a hand cannon isn't illegal and doesn't hurt anybody... well except for the guys shooting the cannons!

palgeno · « **Reply #7 on:** January 25, 2005, 02:45:29 AM »

.454 Cassul in a FA mod. 83 is as big as I go now, and I don't think I personally have used it where a 310 gr cast bullet in a .44 mag would not have sufficed. However I have not hunted in Alaska for the giant brown bears----I think I'd like a shoulder fired RPG for protection against those monsters! :eek: pg

Rmouleart · « **Reply #8 on:** January 25, 2005, 03:19:00 AM »

I don't see enough benefit over the 454 Casull/480 to buy one,since I own a 454/44mag etc..., The 500S&W is a huge revolver, soon we will be putting wheels on them LOL;) S&W sell a 500 with even a longer barrel and a shroud over it,its weird,it has swivels so you can put a strap on it to carry, just about a rifle now, Oh well to his there own, all personal preference, what really counts, is if you can control it and be able to hit mark most of the time at the ranges you practice, To be honest, I shoot my SRH 44mag better than my 454 Casull, tighter groups, most likely due to the extreme recoil of the casull, and there is no such thing of taming a 454 Casull

I'm still practicing with the 454 Casull & 45LC's if I can not get tight enough groups to be efficient enough to hunt with, I will go back to the 44Mag, due to tight groups is what I aim for, there is always enough power using the 44 mag and a properly constructed bullet. I just like that jump in the power band, I think I can develop a good 45LC load for southern NH deer hunting, that will even exceed the 44mag in power. as long as I can keep the groups tight, I will stay with the 454 Casull. I must admit I was looking at the Magnum research's 450 Marlin cart in single action revolver,there is a option to buy the 45/70 cylinder as well, both .458 dia. The 450 Marlin has less recoil than the 454 Casull for the most part. Man what a wheel gun, but again too much barrel,ten inches long, 7 1/2 is enough for me. If your going to shoot over a 125 yards, carry a rifle;) Aim small hit small. RAMbo.

mr.frosty · « **Reply #9 on:** January 25, 2005, 12:26:34 PM »

I'm still learning and practicing with handguns so my expeirence
is still limited. I have a 480 SRH and enjoy it quite a bit.I chose it over a
44 just to be different I guess. Don't regret my decision on the 480,
but if I had been shooting hand cannons I would have chosen the 454 over them all for its versatility.As for now I did find a good recipe for the 480
from hodgdons using 25 gr of lilgun under a 325 xp just getting the equipment to or someone to load them for me. Handloading is a future
hobby to take on later.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #10 on:** January 25, 2005, 12:30:46 PM »

ill make an argument for the big guns mostly because no one else did. I shoot them all .32 .38 .41 .44 .45 .475 and .500 line. Now if i had to reduce to just one gun it would be my .500. Nothing is more versitle. Loaded with a 400 at 800fps it will kill any deer or black bear in the woods and it will do it with less muss and fuss then a .41 or .44 mag. Just a slow roll in the hand and you dont even need ear plugs. Stand on it and send 450s at 1400 fps and it will kill anything on earth. Including your forehead if your not careful. My 4 inch vaquero is smaller and ligher then just about any .44 mag you can buy carrys real nice in a holster and shoots one hole groups with many loads. Its stainless so theres no worry about getting it wet or dirty. Just a good old working tool! But one that looks like its dressed to go to a formal. You can allways load the big ones down but you cant load the small ones up! Granted the biggest animal ive taken with it is a 1000lb buffalo and i could have taken it with a .44 or .45 but it wouldnt have been near as much fun as watching as that bullet blew through and a jet of steam blew out both sides of it! I have taken small deer with it too as small is 90 lbs and it kills them with no fanfare. Just a hole through it at any angle and less meat damage then a .44 mag with jacketed crap. I dont care for the smith .500 as like was said its just to big to carry handly and Id say the same thing even about a 7.5 redhawk or blackhawk. If i cant carry it on my hip it usually stays in the safe.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #11 on:** January 25, 2005, 12:41:25 PM »

One more thing while im ranting. I get a kick out of people who will say that the .500 and .475s are an overkill for hunting in the US The same guys leave there 3030s home and go out with 7 mags to kill antelope and whitetail and dont think anything of taking a 4570 out after bear or dear. A round that out of a rifle is more powerful then any .500 load. What about your inline muzzle loader. Most of you use a 50 with 150 grains of pyrodex to slay little deer. It to is a more powerful load then the stoutest .500 or .475. Ross sigfried did an article a while back on it. He laughingly said he told his buddy that his .475 had to be more powerful then his buddys lever big bore cause it kicked more and belowed more. But in all reality all your getting out of a .500 is black powder 4570 power levels. So put away that 300 weatherby and take out a 3220 and then tell me im using to much gun

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #12 on:** January 25, 2005, 01:04:03 PM »

Lloyd Smale, spoken very well.

I am like you, If I had to choose one handgun it would be my 500MAG. I can load it down to a 44MAG or hotter than I want to handle. :-D

Questor · « **Reply #13 on:** January 26, 2005, 07:56:08 AM »

The 44 magnum is the 30-06 of the handgun hunting world. It's versatile and effective, and that's been proven over and over for 50 years. Iron-sighted revolvers chambered for them tend to be of a good size for use with a hip holster.

I like some of the 480s and 454s because they are more versatile, but I haven't been compelled to switch from the 44. That's the problem with good equipment. You don't need a new toy every six months or year, at least not a new toy in that niche. The 44 is just this reliable thing that I can't find any fault with. It's powerful, accurate, easy to carry, well made, fun to shoot (depending on the ammo used), and does everything I've ever wanted it to do.

100 yards is a long shot with a scoped hunting revolver unless you're a really good shot.

Cost of shooting may be a factor for you, so check the cost of ammo or components before buying. Generally, 44 magnum is a relatively economical choice because good bullets are relatively cheap.

Check the mass of the guns before buying. Some of them are physically quite large. I handled the 500 S&W and the gun is just too big for me. I've got a rifle that weighs only a pound more, and it's a lot more powerful than the 500. The Rugers are a nice size. The Raging Bulls are plenty large and the 6.5" model is about as big as I want a handgun to be.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #14 on:** January 26, 2005, 01:28:39 PM »

Questor, my 4 inch S&W is not all that heavy, but also not really a 100 yard gun either. I also have a BFR in 500MAG that I had cut down to 6 inches but it is a 100 yard gun. Not as heavy as the S&W500.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #15 on:** January 26, 2005, 02:02:58 PM »

Check this out. Scroll halfways down post. http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=330969

rockbilly · « **Reply #16 on:** January 26, 2005, 03:35:16 PM »

:lol: hummmm, Do you mean they are making something bigger than the .44 today? When I bought my first .44 back in the late 50s it was the biggest, baddest on the market. I have taken many many hogs, deer an elk and two black bear with it, even took out the transmission in a '66 Chevy pickup with it. That truck wouldn't move at all after I shot it. (accident). I think it is more than adequate for any North America game.

S.S. · « **Reply #17 on:** January 28, 2005, 04:20:11 AM »

I know this may step on some toes, and I do not
Mean it as a blanket statement about everyone, But I have noticed
among my friends who have been buying these HAND CANNONS
(,454s, 480s,500's,) that their proficiency seems to take a drastic
nose dive. Folks who are pretty decent handgun shots become
mediocre(sp) at best. (Recoil shyness, flinching maybe) I ask them why their .44 magnums have all the sudden become obsolete? It all comes down to Power. But I tell them that all that power is wasted if you can't put it where it needs to go! They also do not practice with them nearly enough now due to the HIGH cost of the ammo! When is enough, enough!

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #18 on:** January 28, 2005, 05:55:18 AM »

S.Sumner, it may be true for some, but between both of my 500 MAG's I have well over 2000 rounds fired. I have shot these gun more than I shoot any other. The only gun I think I shoot more of is my Springfield 1911. My accuracy is just as good with my 500 MAG's as it was shooting in my Redhawk 44 MAG. These big guns are not for everyone. Some of us are recoil junkies.

Spyro Andes · « **Reply #19 on:** January 28, 2005, 08:17:32 AM »

Being a notorious "recoil junkie", I chime in on this subject...

Quote from: Redhawk1

S.Sumner, it may be true for some, but between both of my 500 MAG's I have well over 2000 rounds fired.

First, I don't think that he was intending to single out certain posters but making a general state like "when recoil goes up, accuracy goes down".

And Yes, as a general rule, when recoil goes up, be it rifle or handgun, the shooter's ability to shoot the weapon accurately goes down and in many cases exponentially.

When speaking in generalities, there will always be exceptions to that general rule. I have zero doubt in my mind that you are extremely proficient with your 500 Mag but that really isn't the issue. You are the exception to the rule and not really the focus of the statement.

Quote from: Redhawk1

My accuracy is just as good with my 500 MAG's as it was shooting in my Redhawk 44 MAG. These big guns are not for everyone. Some of us are recoil junkies.

Is your accuracy with your 500 Mag as good as your accuracy with lets say a vintage Colt Officer's Target 22 lr?

I can honestly say that I have seen experienced shooters jerk a 22lr around after just 6 shots from a 44 mag.

I can honestly say that I have seen guys that will bounce a tennis ball down the range w/ a 1911 completely miss an 8" target at 25 yards on his second shot from a shorty 475 Linebaugh.

Honestly, I think the 44 Mag is too much recoil for alot of shooters with the standard 240 grain load. Forget about it with a normal 300gr load, they are way more than most shooters can handle . If that doesn't get them, I have a great 340gr LBT LFN @ 1490fps 44 mag load for my Redhawk that will be too much for most of the guys that handled the 300 grainers.

Heck, we have people on this very message board that think the S&W 329PD is one of the most violent handguns that they have ever shot. Frankly, I'd tend to believe them.

Anyway, I just think that the extremely experienced handgun hunter, like I assume that you are, tends to forget that the average handgunner neither has a regimne to check for recoil related bad habits or shoots enough to total put recoil out of their mind.

Remember RedHawk, we are the exceptions...

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #20 on:** January 28, 2005, 09:34:12 AM »

got my third .500 line last june and only have had time to shoot a little over 3000 rounds through it last summer to many other guns to shoot and winter slows me down here. Have to agree with one statement though if your not will to shoot the hell out of them youll never master them!!! There not a gun for the 10 time a year shooter.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #21 on:** January 28, 2005, 10:00:54 AM »

Spyro Andes, you are correct about exceptions to the rule. I have worked very hard to not flinch. Before I got my 500 MAG's I was a 44MAG shooter and then a 454 casull shooter. I had one 454 casull I shot about 2500 rounds through. I would put 2 bullets in the cylinder and spin the cylinder and them shoot the gun. It took a long time to not flinch on the empty chamber. What I noticed I did was I would push the gun forward in anticipation of the recoil. Now I have got it down not to flinch. Also I did not take the posters comments personally, I was just giving my feedback as pertaining to myself.

palgeno · « **Reply #22 on:** January 28, 2005, 01:05:04 PM »

That "roulette" trick is a good one to use when you are shooting without a buddy to do the job----I've used it too and I'll agree it does help cure the anticipatory push.

pg

rockbilly · « **Reply #23 on:** January 30, 2005, 09:13:45 AM »

:roll: I know some people don't have recoil problems with the really big bore handguns, but I heard a comment made by one of the modern day shootist that went something like this. "the average shooter can recover from the recoil of a .44 Mag. and get off the second shot accurately before the average big bore gunner recovers from the first." Has anyone put this theory to work?

Sounds like it has merit, just curious if anyone knows for sure?

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #24 on:** January 30, 2005, 09:21:24 AM »

Quote from: rockbilly

:roll: I know some people don't have recoil problems with the really big bore handguns, but I heard a comment made by one of the modern day shootist that went something like this. "the average shooter can recover from the recoil of a .44 Mag. and get off the second shot accurately before the average big bore gunner recovers from the first." Has anyone put this theory to work?

Sounds like it has merit, just curious if anyone knows for sure?

It does not make sense to me. I can control the recoil of my 500 MAG as well as I can my 44 MAG.

Tom W. · « **Reply #25 on:** February 01, 2005, 04:53:32 PM »

I don't think my scoped 9 1/2 inch SRH in .480 has as much recoil as my 7 1/2 inch SRH in .44 mag. True, I missed a deer with it this season, but that was due to error on my behalf, not because there wasn't time for a second shot. After the hunt was over, my buddy and I put up some targets and I let him shoot the .480. He'd never fired a handgun of that caliber (or sheer size) before. My load is 22 gr of H110 and a 400 gr, cast SWC, CCI 350 primer. After two shots, he didn't want any more. BTW, his carry rifle is a Ruger M77 300 win mag.

I dug around in the truck and brought out my .44, as I wanted him to shoot it, because he's thinking of buying one. I brought a box of 50 handloads, 21 gr. of 2400 with a 240 gr GC swc. He enjoyed shooting those, but asked if he loaded some did they have to be as stout (He's just getting into handloading). I explained that the load I was using was one that worked well in MY revolver, but if he bought one and wanted different, it was ok.

His recoil limit is different than mine, and I'm sure those of us that have the big boomers have a different tolerance for recoil than others. Or maybe we're just nuts. Who knows? :grin:

pastorp · « **Reply #26 on:** February 01, 2005, 05:57:30 PM »

There is no big game in north america that requires a larger caliber than a 454 casule, or 44 mag. The reason people choose others is because they can and want to.

I will make a few comments on recoil. There are a few people that can tolerate the kind of recoil that the 454 and up produces, but not as many as think they can. In time there accuracy will begin to fall off. As we age our grip ( as well as most other things) is not what it used to be. You young guys won't believe me now but the kind of guns available are only hurting you in the long run. There will come a day that you will need to come to terms with this as I have. I had 3 freedom arms guns and over 1000 rounds of amo when I decided to scale down. Due to arthritis in my hands and shoulder injuries I finally had to face the truth. If something hurts it an't fun anymore.

I shot traditional archery for years. 70# bows and up. I only hurt myself in the long run. Now I cannot shoot anymore without pain, even lighter bows. Several of my friends about my age are dealing with the same thing. I'm not that old the same age as Greybeard.

Its the american way, bigger must be better. The truth is you can kill anything in the americas with the 45 colt. Regards, Byron

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #27 on:** February 01, 2005, 11:28:10 PM »

Hell you ought to watch my 73 year old father shoot my .500 and .475 He laughs and asks what all the fuss is about them being so bad to shoot. Recoil for the most part is more of a mental thing then a physical. Sure the big guns can hurt you if your not paying attention. But once you get your mind to understand that they only jump and bellow and dont really hurt you will learn to control them. Hell my girlfriend has shot my .500 lin. she didnt care much for it but she didnt bleed! Its actually tougher for me to shoot a .338 or bigger rifle then a hard kicking handgun. They beat the hell out of your shoulder and cheak.

Quote from: pastorp

There is no big game in north america that requires a larger caliber than a 454 casule, or 44 mag. The reason people choose others is because they can and want to.

I will make a few comments on recoil. There are a few people that can tolerate the kind of recoil that the 454 and up produces, but not as many as think they can. In time there accuracy will begin to fall off. As we age our grip ( as well as most other things) is not what it used to be. You young guys won't believe me now but the kind of guns available are only hurting you in the long run. There will come a day that you will need to come to terms with this as I have. I had 3 freedom arms guns and over 1000 rounds of amo when I decided to scale down. Due to arthritis in my hands and shoulder injuries I finally had to face the truth. If something hurts it an't fun anymore.

I shot traditional archery for years. 70# bows and up. I only hurt myself in the long run. Now I cannot shoot anymore without pain, even lighter bows. Several of my friends about my age are dealing with the same thing. I'm not that old the same age as Greybeard.

Its the american way, bigger must be better. The truth is you can kill anything in the americas with the 45 colt. Regards, Byron

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #28 on:** February 02, 2005, 12:21:31 AM »

Lloyd Smale, I have heavy hitting rifles also, and I am like you. I would rather shoot a heavy recoiling handgun than a heavy kicking rifle. But I do enjoy my big bore rifles.

Smoky Mountain Red · « **Reply #29 on:** February 05, 2005, 05:40:40 AM »

I shoot the .500 too.

I will be honest about my reason for the 500 S&W purchase.

I bought it for a few reasons:
1. I wanted it because it was the biggest. peroid. Yeah Yeah Its too much for most stuff, but it still is BIG! :shock:

2. The days at the local range sometimes comes with a know-it-all loud mouth that has got to prove that his new Kimber is the best thing since sliced bread. When he is rapid firing his .45 at his steel gong at about 20 feet and causing everyone to scurry away because of the possible flyers,

l'll break out my 500, amble over and start blasting at the golf balls at 50 yards. Well that muzzle blast can unnerve any hotshot focused on destruction (specially the one next to me...) :wink:

3. The 500 is a hoot to shoot! Recoil is less than the Super Black Hawk in .44 mag. The angle of the grip is far more friendly! Some people don't handle big guns well, some of us feel a better fit...

4. When it comes to hunting I agree, its not necessary for the big game in the US, But I may want to just shoot something different that day.

5. The smoothness of the Smith & Wesson action is very evident in the big 500.

and finally, if I decide to sell it I will get my $ back out of it, more so than I would a .44 mag that everyone owns.

-Smoky

:biggun: