Yes Another 25 ACP Conversion Question

[Stan M.]

I actually have a couple of questions about the much talked about ACP Converted breech plugs. I think it is a great idea and I simply want to eliminate blowback in my Encore. I'm thinking about getting the conversion kit or maybe having a machinist friend bore a TC plug for me.
 Looking at the picture on Presicion Rifles' web site, it looks as if the extractor is removed from the Encore when using the 25 ACP case. Wouldn't that leave a gap between the rim of the case and the breech plug? The space where the extractor use to be.
 Second, if there is no extractor to deal with, then a converted breech plug is no more than a breech plug bored to the diameter of the 25 ACP case, and deep enough to give the same over all length as the breech plug and 209 primer together. This would have to be, to insure the firing pin will strike the primer and the action will close.
 I appreciate all of PR's efforts and research and will probably use some there bullets and jag but for $60 is all your getting is a hole in a breech plug that is few thousandths larger and a little deeper to allow for the ACP case?
Comments and reccomendations are always appreciated,
Stan

[AndyHass]

I can't comment on the extractor issue.  Maybe Redhawk can.
  It does appear that all you are getting for your money is a factory plug machined to the correct size for the ACP case.  Figuring out the exact specifications for the machining was likely a fairly involved process for them, to the thousandth of an inch to get it to fit right.  However, with a machinist friend and someone else's ACP plug to copy. making your own would probably be trivial.
   One thing to check is if they have an American patent on the plug.  If they do, making your own would technically put you and your machinist friend in line for a big lawsuit...you can't copy a patent, even for your own use.

[Oldsnow]

Stan you are wright $60. is a little steep. I also think his bullets are high in price compared to Hornady SST's ans XTP's.

[Stan M.]

I do respect PR's efforts and I never thought about a copyright infringement.  I guess you have to pay if you wanna play. All I was thinking was to bore a hole just a iddy-bitty bigger. I am on a tight budget nowadays. Might just try the 209-410 for starters.
 PR. has someone machine their plugs now, I would guess it's a TC clone, does their bigger hole make it different from the TC patent? I didn't intend to get into all that mess, like I said I didn't think about copyrights.
 As far as the PR Bullets I will give them a try. I am sold on the Barnes MZ's form previous experiences but I have yet to shoot my new Encore and see what it will like.
Stan

[jdbe]

it seems more than reasonable to me as the company that developed them took the initiative and time to design and make it and it is a improvement without a doubt.

[upnorth]

their bullets maybe a little on the pricy side, but I can't get 3 hornadys to cut  one ragged hole with my encore. can do that all day with the dead centers. it's up to the individual shooter on what's more important. if your in this sport to save money, your in the wrong sport.

[Redhawk1]

 Looking at the picture on Presicion Rifles' web site, it looks as if the extractor is removed from the Encore when using the 25 ACP case. Wouldn't that leave a gap between the rim of the case and the breech plug? The space where the extractor use to be.
 Second, if there is no extractor to deal with, then a converted breech plug is no more than a breech plug bored to the diameter of the 25 ACP case, and deep enough to give the same over all length as the breech plug and 209 primer together.

Yes there is a gap, the case is protruding out of the breech plug. It is set at a depth so the case will clear the frame and close and be tight agents the frame. The only thing stoping the case from going in the breech plug any further is the depth of the hole machined in the breech plug. All you would need to do is measure your 209 breech plug with a 209 primer in place and then machine the breech plug with a 25ACP case to the same length.
Your second statement is correct.  

[Jim n Iowa]

I like the idea, with my nimbless fingers a reload would be easier. Do they make this for a T/C Black Diamond?
Jim

[Stan M.]

Jim,
 Precision Rifle makes the breech plugs we are speaking of for the Encore, Omega, and the G2 Thompson Center Products. There has been much discussion about it here at GB. You can do a search a get a lot of posts and info on the subject. I have not seen a plug listed for the Black Diamond. This is probably because the Encore, Omega, and G2 have break open actions and the 25ACP case is held in place by the action being closed.
The Black Diamond looks as if the nipple is exposed when the rifle is cocked. The TC 209 primer adapter for the Black Diamond uses a spring type wire to hold the 209 primer in place. I would think something would have to hold the 25 ACP case in place, like a closed action.
 You can go to Precision Rifles website http://www.prbullet.com/ and look around and maybe ask them, but I feel you may be out of luck.
 I use a TC "Dog Bone" that is a red plastic priming tool that easily primes 209 primers in my Remington. When I used percussion caps I used the brass priming tool. I would use one of these tools to prime if I could not convert to 25 ACP.
Hope this helps,
Stan

[Jim n Iowa]

Stan
Thanks for the reply. I have not experienced any problems with the BD, and I was using "Clean Shot" which worked well.  The wife drags me to the mall so I shop in the sports area. So I thought I would go for triple seven, then caught this thread. I will look for "dog bone" as that may help my dexterity or lack of.
Jim

[str8shooter48]

Stan
Thanks for the reply. I have not experienced any problems with the BD, and I was using "Clean Shot" which worked well.  The wife drags me to the mall so I shop in the sports area. So I thought I would go for triple seven, then caught this thread. I will look for "dog bone" as that may help my dexterity or lack of.
Jim

Jim, If Clean Shot worked well in your Black Diamond why not stick with it under its new name American Pioneer Powder.

When I bought my Encore I used Clean Shot in both pellet and loose powder form. It worked well for me too. When Clean Shot went out of business due to the lawsuit filed by Hodgdon (makers of 777) I bought a can of 777. Don't get me wrong it shot well but the hassles that went with it weren't worth it to me. The possibility of frozen breechplug if you didn't use the right grease. The dreaded crud ring and the swabbing between shots. Two shots maximum were possible without swabbing out the crud ring. I used it for one hunting season.

Just before hunting season last year I bought a pound of American Pioneer powder. None of the hassles that I had with 777 and accuracy was superb. No need to swab between shots, never had a frozen breech plug using T/C Gorilla Grease.  My brother bought APP sticks he didn't like them, he switched back to powder. He's happy with it too.

No need for a 25ACP breech plug conversion either. I use Win 209 primers with no problems. The sad part of it is. My 25 ACP conversion was on the way when I test fired the APP with the Win 209 primers. Everything went so well the conversion is still sitting there unused. Something to play with in the spring.

In my opinion if you liked Clean Shot you'll like APP too.

Good Luck

http://www.americanpioneerpowder.com/

[Keith Lewis]

I did the same thing with the various powders and 777 created so much problem for me I also bought the .25ACP conversion. I have since switched to APP or BM3 with BM3 being my preferred choice. I do not need the conversion with either powder but I use it anyway. I have found that when hunting the .25 is easier to deal with than the 209 primers. It is easier to load and unload especially with cold fingers. With the BM3 powder it does not even foul up the .25 brass enough to cause problems so getting them cleaned and reloaded is a breeze. I think when you start using the conversion you will stay with it too.

[Redhawk1]

The 25ACP makes it real easy to prime the gun.  

[str8shooter48]

Thanks guys. I'm glad to hear there are more plusses to the 25ACP conversion than its original intent.

[Oldsnow]

I think the idea of the bullet being moving off of the powder charge before powder ignition is something That Precision Bullet invented to sell (breach plug conversions).The reason I use Remington 209-4 primers is to reduce the crud ring in my Encore and Omega when I use Triple 7. I don't get the crud ring when I use Pyrodex.

[Redhawk1]

I think the idea of the bullet being moving off of the powder charge before powder ignition is something That Precision Bullet invented to sell (breach plug conversions).The reason I use Remington 209-4 primers is to reduce the crud ring in my Encore and Omega when I use Triple 7. I don't get the crud ring when I use Pyrodex.

I did not get a crud ring either when I used Pyrodex. The crud ring is associated with triple7 and 209 primers. Also Precision Rifle invented the breech plug to eliminate the crud ring. Yes they also believe the 209 pushes the bullet prior to the powder being ignited. I tend to agree with them. But we all have our opinions and no one is making anyone buy them.

[Stan M.]

OK guys, I have another thought here. It sounds to me 777 is the reason for the crud ring and the ACP plug has helped people eliminate some of the crud ring. Well now I have Black Mag 3 to try and I'm hearing good stuff...no crud ring.
 In my first post one of my main concerns was to eliminate blowback into the action on my new Encore. I want to try and keep everything in the barrel. How does the Encore/Omega 209 primer do as far as blowback with a powder other than 777? Or is it the 25 ACP conversion the way to eliminate blow back?
 I'm not going to argue PR's theory on bullet jump, the ramrod test does seem convincing and there may be too much spark. It might help accuracy but I like the claims of eliminating blowback and the ease of loading. Sooner or later I'm going to shoot this new rifle I find out for myself! Can't solve the problems at the desk.
Thanks for all the comments! Makes for some good reading.
Stan

[Redhawk1]

Stan M. I think you answered your own question. You need to go out and shoot the gun and see where you are at. As you have seen you will get several opinions and the only one that counts is what you do.  

[TCAS]

PR bullets and 25 acp have worked better for me than the 209 primers.  The ACP case gets very dirty with 777

My 45 caliber loves the 195 grain bullets and 120 grains 777.  only problem is you need to clean between shots even in hunting situations if you want to maintain your best potenial accruacy.  I use two spit patches with a worm.

I went through about 100+ rounds on paper plus another 10 fields shot over the past two seasons. in my bullberry encore.  About 6 deer were taken between 150-190 yard and one just over 200 yard.  NONE ran more than 50-60 yards.

On paper 3 shots at 200 yards around 2inches.  My old barnes bullets were almost as accurate but much harder to load especially in cold weather.

Also, I have found no use for the extractor on my muzzle barrel, just gets in the way so I removed it.

Tom