How much Lehigh Valley lube should I use on patches?

[JS44]

I got some last weekend and tried it thinking that by using it I wouldnt have to swab the bore so much. Not the case. After 3 shots it was nearly impossible to get the ball down the barrel. The bottle DID have some instructions on the back label but they've been partially rubbed off before I got it. I'd take it back to swap for another but that shop is 52 miles away. Anyway, what I did was cut off a strip of .017" (according to the label) pillow ticking to take to the range. I folded it up and squirted the Lehigh Valley onto it and sort of squeezed it in until the cloth felt sort of damp (not far at all from dry).  After that I put it in a plastic margirine container so it wouldn't dry up. I'd use more but I didnt want to contaminate the powder. So how wet should my patches be to make this lube work?
Thanks.
JS

[johnt]

I never tried Leih but I like cut at the muzzle patchin.
Did ya try finding the shot patches? Ya can find out alot from the condition of  fired patches.

[JS44]

Most of the patches get blown to the side by the wind and lost in the grass. Being at a shooting range I can't go out and get them after each shot and I can't hold up the firing line to look too long for them during cold range  periods either. I have found a few and some were ripped/burned through at where the bottom of the ball would be. About a 1/2 to 3/4 circlular hole around the circumfrence of the ball where it contacts the rifling. Wether those were the ones that went down the bore easy or hard I don't know. That might tell me something. I did read either on this board or another that cotton balls can be put in between the powder and patched ball and this insulates them and helps keep the bore cleaner too. That sounds workable to me and I think I'll give that a try. What can it hurt?
I started out using Ox-Yoke pre-lubed patches before but wanted to try cutting my own and using the generally well spoken of Lehigh Valley lube. I might try to find some slightly thinner cloth around the house to use this weekend and see what that does for me. I can see right now that getting this rifle (Lyman GPR .50) to shoot well is going to drive me nuts.
Thanks.
JS

[fredj]

I got some last weekend and tried it thinking that by using it I wouldnt have to swab the bore so much. Not the case. After 3 shots it was nearly impossible to get the ball down the barrel. The bottle DID have some instructions on the back label but they've been partially rubbed off before I got it. I'd take it back to swap for another but that shop is 52 miles away. Anyway, what I did was cut off a strip of .017" (according to the label) pillow ticking to take to the range. I folded it up and squirted the Lehigh Valley onto it and sort of squeezed it in until the cloth felt sort of damp (not far at all from dry).  After that I put it in a plastic margirine container so it wouldn't dry up. I'd use more but I didnt want to contaminate the powder. So how wet should my patches be to make this lube work?Thanks.JS

  JS- How much to use is dependant on the quality of the BP you're using
how much BP you're using and the relative humidity, if you're using a
heavy charge of some really nasty GOEX, and it's really hot or cold and dry  then I'd use the patch wet if you're shooting Swiss and a modest load
you could get by with a just damp patch, I don't think I'd worry about powder contamination too much as you're only actually completely combusting less than half of the powder anyway and as long as you're consistent your shots should group well.
fredj

[Ironwood]

JS44.... I'm new to muzzleloading and by no means an authority.  I did run across this illustration in an old Lyman reloading manual.  I'm sure Lyman won't mind if we use it here.

[savageT]

I got some last weekend and tried it thinking that by using it I wouldnt have to swab the bore so much. Not the case. After 3 shots it was nearly impossible to get the ball down the barrel. The bottle DID have some instructions on the back label but they've been partially rubbed off before I got it. I'd take it back to swap for another but that shop is 52 miles away. Anyway, what I did was cut off a strip of .017" (according to the label) pillow ticking to take to the range. I folded it up and squirted the Lehigh Valley onto it and sort of squeezed it in until the cloth felt sort of damp (not far at all from dry).  After that I put it in a plastic margirine container so it wouldn't dry up. I'd use more but I didnt want to contaminate the powder. So how wet should my patches be to make this lube work?
Thanks.
JS

JS,

Son, You sound stressed out.  I can feel your pain.  I have a bottle of Lehigh Valley Lube in front of me...........From the back label I will transcribe:
                                  Cleans while you shoot!
Custom formulated Lehigh Valley Lube is a black powder shooting patch lubricant, designed to completely eliminate the need for barrel cleaning between shots-regardless of black powder load size, depth of rifling, or weather conditions. (non-petroleum based)

                                  Directions for user:
Generously apply Lehigh Valley Lube to the patch and load the rifle according to the manufacturer's specifications.  After shooting, re-load with a freshly lubricated patch.  The gun barrel will remain residue-free shot after shot after shooting without the need to clean between shots.
                                  Gun Storage:
At the end of the shooting day, "field clean" your rifle with Lehigh Valley Lube staurated patches.  For the most thorough barrel clean-up, prior to storage, rinse with hot soapy water and apply a moisture displacing lubricant.
                                  Warning:
We recommend that you read and follow all firearm manufacturer's specifications and warnings in conjunction with safe firearm handling before using this, or any other product.

Manufactured by:
Lestom Laboratories, Inc.
P.O. Box 628
Mexico, New York, 13114-0628
Patent Pending

http://cap-n-ball.com/lehigh/

[johnt]

yer starting to get sum good feedback. Good pic.s of patches,now we know what the bottle says.Ya gotta remember that all of the stuff on the shelf is the best stuff there is,no other product is better than the one you have in your hand,and because it the best,buy two bottles and use plenty cause we'll make more.(sound familier?)
If your getting burnt holes,the patch is too dry,
A tight patch is good.It should hurt just a bit using the short starter to drive the patch and ball down the bore.And a firm steady push on the rod to seat the ball.
I may sound redundant to some of my pals here, but Google"Dutch Schultz" an read what's there.
It'll take about 200 ball to find the right combo for you and your gun if you approach  the many variables just right. If you change more than one thing at a time you'll never narrow it down to a sweat fine tuned weapon the GPR is and can be!
Tell ya what you do a bit more research,and I'll send ya my e-mail in a pm
we can yak sum more if'n ya like.

[fredj]

I never tried Leih but I like cut at the muzzle patchin.
Did ya try finding the shot patches? Ya can find out alot from the condition of  fired patches.

JohnT- I much prefer cutting my patches at the muzzle also, I think besides the economical aspect it's the only way to get a perfectly centered
patch every time, I use LeHigh and think it's far and away the best patch lube ever, I saturate my roll strip of pillow ticking and keep it in a small
jar, sometimes I'll add a mite more before I start shooting, I know what you mean as far as they always want you to use and buy more, I'd never use the stuff as a solvent as they say on the bottle, it's far too expensive for that, besides cider vinegar, glass cleaner or water work so well, but as a Patch lube I've never found anything that works near as well, and the expense is actually reletively minor (a bottle lasts a good long time)
Regards fredj

[Loozinit]

Like johnt says, change only one variable at a time or you'll drive yourself nuts and quit.  It took about 300 rounds over the first summer to get my GPR to perform.  I still think it could be better but I figure 4" @ 100 yards is decent for an RB launcher.  It's much better at 75, which is my normal hunting range.  Some of that's maybe because of my vision, too.  My Tennessee Mountain Rifle does better - much longer barrel.  

If you are finding torn patches, you should try loading some rounds with no powder and then retrieve them from the bore to find out if they are tearing as you ram.  That's what I did.  They were tearing both ways - ramming and firing.  That's when I switched to .018"  ticking - real ticking.  You'll need a good strong ball screw, of course.  And, a handle on the rod strong enough that you can stand on so as to pull the rifle off the ball.

Personally, I left my wood rods in the closet years ago and have been using a modified aluminum shotgun rod ever since (3/8" breakdown type).  There are few things more frustrating than not being able to efficiently service the piece in the field.  It makes the whole experience of "learning" your rifle very much easier.

As to lube, I have never tried Lehigh.  I'm sure it's good stuff.  Wonder lube is what I use cause I can't get Young Country any more.  I must admit to a bias against lubes that say "this is all you need..."  Nope, ain't true.  Wonder Lube is just as guilty.  Nothing relaces a thorough clean-up with hot soapy water or any of the other methods described by the guys in this discussion.  Whether it be a combo of Murphy's Oil Soap or windshield cleaner or whatever - it's still labor intensive and there's no way around it.  All the claims otherwise are merely marketing ploys.

You will not foul the powder with too much lube. I can't imagine any patch holding enough lube to foul the load.  Saturate those patches and don't worry about it.  That's why I melt the lube and dip them.  You will get consistent lube every time because they will absorb only so much.  Those Ox-Yoke patches in the store are saturated, too.  I use the ticking only because that's what my GPR tells me it likes.  The thinner Ox-Yokes I use in my flint pistol.

Also: Try a dry swab between shots - once down and out - that's all.  I have found that this keeps the fouling to a minimum better than anything else.

Good luck - and keep coming back for more confusing input....

[fredj]

As to lube, I have never tried Lehigh.  I'm sure it's good stuff.  Wonder lube is what I use cause I can't get Young Country any more.  I must admit to a bias against lubes that say "this is all you need..."  Nope, ain't true.  Wonder Lube is just as guilty.....

  Loozinit- I agree with your advice took me quite a while to figure out I was like a dog chasing his own tail till I figured out one variable at a time.
I also agree about all the wild claims made by manufacturers, some of them are downright preposterous, as far as the LeHigh goes however
it really is an amazing patch lube, best I ever found including all kinds of
homemade concoctions, LeHigh say's to use it as solvent which I think is BS it's too expensive to use as solvent. and the Wonder lube they claim you can shoot over 1000 shots with out swabbing or cleaning, yeah right

  You can approximate LeHigh by mixing alcohol with Lestoil and water
I never got the quantities right so it worked as well as the LeHigh
and my lube was greasy, but it did work considerably better than wonder lube or bore butter.
Regards fredj

[JS44]

Thanks for all the info! I'm printing all of this as I write.
A least the consensus is that I can use more lube and I will.
I have patch evaluation pictures in an old BP book by George Nonte.
I'm using 90 gr. of Goex FFg (Goex, good or bad, is all we can get here).
I've been told that the best accuracy comes from about 60 gr but I'm wanting to come up with one general purpose load to include hunting.
I've got a brass range rod with the muzzle protector for range work and a wooden one for looks and field use.
Also, per Fredj's advice on an earlier post, I used some JB bore paste earlier this week.
Thanks again for all your efforts. I'm gettin' there.
JS

[Loozinit]

JS44,
You might do well to leave that wood rod at home for hangin on the wall.  Sooner or later it'll give out in the field. Trust me...

If you want a good recipe for a field rod, send me a PM.  I'll be happy to help you out.  It's bullet proof.

[JS44]

Loozinit;
Actually I have a brown fiberglass rod the came with the rifle. Apparently the last owner didn't shoot it much. Not enough anyway to bother with filing the front sight down to a usable height but enough to bust the original wooden rod. Myself, I'll take my chances with the wooden one. It might break but it'll look cool up until that time.
Thanks.
JS

[fredj]

I'm using 90 gr. of Goex FFg (Goex, good or bad, is all we can get here).
I've been told that the best accuracy comes from about 60 gr but I'm wanting to come up with one general purpose load to include hunting.
I've got a brass range rod with the muzzle protector for range work and a wooden one for looks and field use.
Also, per Fredj's advice on an earlier post, I used some JB bore paste earlier this week. JS

JS- Sounds like you're doing OK, how did you like the JB paste ? Neat stuff
methinks, I've used it to square away more than a few abused barrels
I think the brass rod with the button(muzzle protector) is fine.
I've heard the latest lots of GOEX are quite an improvement, but I've yet to shoot any, but even if it's the worst stuff they ever made it's superior to all the substitutes. The biggest problem with some of the bad GOEX is the nasty fouling, about the most negative aspect of GOEX is you'll need to wipe between shots which is really no big deal most experienced ML shooters do that routiinely anyway, try to get lots from 2002, I found the cartridge grade the best GOEX but that was the stuff from Pennsylvania,  I think the competition from the quality BP's now available on the US market will literaly force the bastards to make decent BP. the wonderful world of free enterprize. Sadly it seems as if lots of retailers are using the new anti terrorist regulations to stop selling BP altogether and push the substitutes, so anyone that wants to shoot BP will end up either joining a shooting club or ordering wholesale like I do.
Regards fredj

[Buckshotliam]

Loozinit, why don't you start a new thread and explain your rod to all of us?  I for one would be interested.

[savageT]

Loozinit, why don't you start a new thread and explain your rod to all of us?  I for one would be interested.

Loozinit,
I asked some time ago about finding a good range-rod with muzzle guide.  I never did find one.  I for one would appreciate some help here on making or purchasing one.

[JS44]

Fredj;
The GPR is the first rifle I tried it on. I have a few older military rifles and pistols (P-38, P-35, SKS, CNo.4 Mk.I*, ) that have somewhat dark but not bad bores that I want to try and shine up with it.
Two places that I do business with localy say that their insurance companies are what's keeping them from stocking black powder.
JS

[fredj]

Fredj;
The GPR is the first rifle I tried it on. I have a few older military rifles and pistols (P-38, P-35, SKS, CNo.4 Mk.I*, ) that have somewhat dark but not bad bores that I want to try and shine up with it.
Two places that I do business with localy say that their insurance companies are what's keeping them from stocking black powder.
JS

   JS- It's really a shame between the Fed's and the Ins. company beancounters, they really are clueless as to the actual properties of Black Powder most of the common wisdom concerning the dangers of BP are
absolute BS. At any rate even if they do go to the trouble of stocking BP
they need to charge a very stout toll to make it worth thier while. I remeber GOEX costing $18.75 a LB several years ago when the case $
was around $7.00 a lb, I think anyone serious about BP shooting that doesn't belong to a club where you can buy a LB or 2 at the case price
is best off bitting the bullet and ordering a case, you not only save some serious money, but it'll be years before you need to buy BP again and
the price is going to go up just like everything does, not only that but
when you use your precious time working up great loads and then the next can you get is from a new or different lot your nice loads are in the crapper as there is lot to lot variation in all BP's except for the Swiss
BP has a virtually infinite shelf life, I've shot 150 yr old BP and it was absolutely wonderful stuff very fast hot and clean much better than the GOEX which was all that was available at the time. It's also nice to get a mixed case if you use Elephant and the Swiss like I do you can get
FFg FFFg etc in both brands and be able to really work up some incredible loads as you have so much lattitude in rate of burn etc, you'd never see a serious smokeless reloader relying on one single powder, they have
slow rifle powder med rifle powder, fast pistol powder etc, etc, BP is
the same way but it's an incredible bargain compared to the white stuff
(smokeless) so for around $200 including shipping and hazmat you're completely dialed in for many years, I know guys who will drive a couple of hundred miles to pick up a few LB's of BP doesn't make much sense to me for the money they spent on gas in 2 trips and the $$$ they paid
for a couple of LB's at retail they could have had a case. If the idea of getting 25 1 lb cans for yourself is too much just split the case with a shooting buddy or two.
   The JB will clean up some of those older military bores nicely, I used to shoot a lot of cast bullet loads with mausers and Enfields etc.
Regards fredj

[JS44]

I must be doing something right. Today I was actually getting what could be considered decent groups out to 75 yards. I used more lube on the patches with the balls and after every 2 shots I was running a cleaning patch wet with Lehigh Valley lube down the bore. I'd run it down and take the patch off the jag, turn it upside down and run the clean side down. I tried to use musket caps too today but didnt have good luck with them. For some reason, the nipple for them is at an angle that doesn't give the hammer enough overbite on them and most all of them had to be hammered at least twice. Sometimes 6 or 7 times to go off  :roll: . So it's back to #11's and I'll just leave it at that for percussion caps. I think a little more fine tuning and I'll be where I want to be with this.
Thanks for all your help on this.
JS

[fredj]

JS44-It usually takes a while for a new barrel to settle in, I'd suggest using
the LeHigh just as patch lube, and use water or watered down glass cleaner for the between shots wiping, for one thing it's a whole lot more economical and will likely work a little better, also the GOEX you're using might be some of the nasty stuff, would you mind posting the numbers on the can and I'll find out how that particular lot is.
It sounds like the Musket nipple was somewhat catywampus and the hammer wasn't hitting it square, the #11 caps should work just fine as long as your flash channel is clear, I often pop a cap after wiping before loading to clear the channel and patent breech point the muzzle at a weed or blade of grass it should move when you fire the cap, pipe cleaners do
a nice job of clearing flash channels and a breech scraper will really cut the crud if your BP is leaving lots of crud shine a strong light down bore nad see if the breechplug face is flat or if it has  a patent breech which it probably does thats a small chamber in the center of the breech plug it
makes for a cleaner more efficient burn if you've got that get a standard breech scraper for your caliber and a .32 cal scraper to get in there if it's too tight or a little too big just fit it by filling the sides a mite, then periodically scrape the inside of the patent breech and the face of the plug
if you want to be really slick you can shape a standard size breech scraper
into a one shot affair that does both at once, be sure to pop a cap after scraping the breech, doing this is quick and easy and will save you lots of
mis and hangfires and improve your accuracy, the GOEX probably needs a little compression to burn cleaner and more consistently so when you seat the patched ball lean on the range rod enough to exert 25 or 30 lb's of pressure, the exact presssure is less important than being consistent
(same pressure every time ) they even make a doodad called a Kadooty
which works suprizingly well, but they're pretty expensive, I'd apply the money to buying a case of better BP. be sure however to keep the muzzle pointed away from you in the remote event that theres a live ember down there, I actually saw this happen once the guy was seating a ball and the load went off, fortunately the guy was using a proper range rod, the ball on the end will blow past your hand unlike a ramrod which if your hand is over it, it can and will go clean through your hand, at anny rate his rod went arcing way up and downrange it was quite impressive and I'd bet he needed a clean pair of skiivies  :lol:  I'll bet you'll be shooting cloverleaves in the near future.
Regards fredj

[JS44]

Fredj;
I guess this is the lot/batch numer. It's on the bottom of the can:
02-71 & 00SE16C. This is the can I've been using. The next is 02-85 & 02MY078. This one is smudged some so this might not be exactly the right number. The 8 could be a G since that would follow the same format as the other number.
The breech end of the barrel on mine does have the smaller chamer. I didn't see it before but just now looked at it more closely. I'll get a .32 scraper next time I go to the BP shop. Until then I've got a .32 barrel brush I can for that.
Thanks
JS

[fredj]

JS- I sent those lot #'s to a friend to be de-coded

    Those patent breeches are a wonderful innovation from flinter days
a Brit. gunmaker named nock came up with that it increases the velocity
and efficiency considerably, but does require cleaning rifles come from the factory pre-fouled from proofing and loaded with preservative oils
and coatings and most guys never clean this crap out causing mis and hang fires, it makes a big difference when everything is cleaned up.

   Traditionally the more mediocre BP's require a very hot ignition and
reletively stiff compression the higher quality BP's prefer mild to no compression and a mild ignition, I think some of your fouling problems may be from not being compressed enough, and some of that GOEX is very nasty stuff, what part of the country do you live in ? The reason I was wondering if there's a master distributor within a reasonable drive
there are I believe also some distributors that will ship 5 lb.
Regards fredj

[fredj]

Fredj;I guess this is the lot/batch numer. It's on the bottom of the can:02-71 & 00SE16C. This is the can I've been using. The next is 02-85 & 02MY078. This one is smudged some so this might not be exactly the right number. The 8 could be a G since that would follow the same format as the other number.JS

JS- My friend said " 02-71, 00SE16C
the 02 stands for 2F.  The 71 is some sort of ingredient batch number.
The second line is the packing date code.  That being Sept. 16, 2000 "C"
shift.

02-85, 02MY07B
the 02 standing for 2F with 85 being an ingredient batch number.
Packing date code being May 7, 2002 "B" shift.

The 2000 stuff was nothing to write home about.  The May 2002 is made
with the "new" charcoal."

   In other word the 2000 stuff is crap, the 2002 stuff should be reasonably good BP.
  He also said the GPR barrels are cut rifled and require about 200 shots with PRB's to smooth out and not foul badly and that when it's cold the only BP that won't cause fouling difficulties is the Swiss'

  Regards fredj

[JS44]

Fredj;
Thanks once again for your help. The older can I bought in Dec. 2001 for my BP revolver since that shop didnt have any 3F. I found 3F at the next place and just hung on to the 2F knowing I'd need it sooner or later.
The 2002 can I got just two weeks ago. I can't justify buying it more than 2 pounds at a time since I don't see shooting it enough. I've got other guns that demand my time and only so much time to spend shooting them. With that, everything, BP as well as modern guns only get limited use. I must say that the GPR in question does shoot a LOT better now than the first two times I took it out. I think it's just a matter of fine tuning now and I'm going to use water or diluted windshield washer fluid for the swabbings as you suggested. Gotta love that big smoke cloud :twisted: For now I'm going to just stick with the #11 magnum caps like I started off with.
Thanks again.
JS