Author Topic: Need advice (Read 1469 times)

jk3006 · « **on:** February 01, 2005, 09:51:14 AM »

Hi guys,

I just purchased a .223 handi, and I've just finished working up a load for it. It is averaging 1.25 or so at 100 yards (3-shots). The funny thing is that two of the three shots are consistently (almost every time) touching or almost touching, with the third one stringing either high or low. They always vertically string. Sometimes it's my first shot that's high/low and sometimes it's the third one, but's almost never the second one. Last night I completely floated the forend, and then I put a neopreme spacer on the lug. I just took it out this morning to try some different things.
I shot two groups just the way it was with the floating job and spacer. Both groups had the same stringing issue with no apparent group change in size. I then tightened the forend screw real tight (I was of a medium tension on the first two groups) and shot two more groups. Nothing changed. I then used some thick paper to bed the forend at the tip (muzzle side). Nothing changed. I then moved that piece of paper back so that it was one inch from the forend. Still, nothing changed with the vertical stringing. At that point I was out of ammo.
So, I have read up on some of the things that I can still do to potentially get this gun to shoot better, but I thought that maybe someone would have some specific advice as to what is causing the stringing problem and what I can do to fix it, if there is anything.

Thanks a bunch,
Jon

Sourdough · « **Reply #1 on:** February 01, 2005, 11:11:57 AM »

I shoot every shot from a cold barrel. Yes, I wait five to ten minutes between shots. Other wise after the third shot they start rising vertically, about 1 1/2" per shot, at 100 yards. In hunting as I do that first shot is the only one that counts, and it is always from a cold barrel. Therefore that is the way I practice.

roostertails · « **Reply #2 on:** February 01, 2005, 12:03:51 PM »

Most Handi barrels have uneven tension in them, to releive the tension put the barrel in the Freezer overnight and then try it. Oh take the o-ring off the lug as this only puts the forend/receiver in a bind when the forend screw is tightened.

gwhilikerz · « **Reply #3 on:** February 01, 2005, 01:27:01 PM »

Like Sourdough said. Make sure the barrel is cooled down between shots. It does make a big difference.

jk3006 · « **Reply #4 on:** February 01, 2005, 01:55:06 PM »

Thanks for your comments. I don't understand why putting the barrel in the freezer is good for it, but I'll do that if there's a chance it'll make a positive difference. As far as the barrel heating up when I shoot, that is a good point. But, in my three-shot groups, sometimes it's the first shot that hits higher or lower than the next two, and sometimes it's the last shat that hits higher or lower than the first two. The stringing appears to be random whether it's the first or third shot that blows the group. I doubt it's from the barrel heating up.

One thing that I didn't mention before. I've been using a Harris bipod as my forend rest. Do you think that would make any difference?

Thanks once again, and I'm all ears.

Jon

jk3006 · « **Reply #5 on:** February 01, 2005, 02:04:08 PM »

Just for the record, after checking my data from my shooting this morning, four out of the six groups had the last shot going the lowest.

MSP Ret · « **Reply #6 on:** February 01, 2005, 02:24:30 PM »

Usually the first shot out of a clean barrel will print differently than the following shots. This is where the habit of a "fouling shot" came from. However in your case it seems as if you are saying it happens in every 3 shot group. Try shooting 5 shot groups and let us know if it's still the last shot or the first shot that always prints high or low, if it is I know the problem( :wink: ). Also, try shooting th gun with no forearm on it and rest it on the reciever just in front of the trigger guard. If you want, try these things and report back, it may help your problem, Thanks....<><.... :grin:

jk3006 · « **Reply #7 on:** February 01, 2005, 02:51:10 PM »

I'll probably get out next Monday, in which I will definately shoot 2 or 3 five shot groups. I will also shoot it without the forearm attached. Thanks for all the good advice.

Jon

quickdtoo · « **Reply #8 on:** February 01, 2005, 03:10:42 PM »

I seriously doubt a night in a 5 degree freezer is going to have any impact on accuracy for any long term, cryo treating is done at -300F to attempt to eliminate stress in the barrel, but it's questionable that it even helps...

http://www.riflebarrels.com/faq_lilja_rifle_barrels.htm#deepcryogenic

v8r · « **Reply #9 on:** February 01, 2005, 04:55:09 PM »

Cryo treating any ferrous metal will straighten the grain structure and make it stronger,but I really don't think putting a barrel in the freezer is going to do much.The bore may be slightly tighter until it warms back up to room temperature.It's amazing what metals do when you heat treat them. :grin:

roostertails · « **Reply #10 on:** February 01, 2005, 07:03:30 PM »

First of all if you are shooting the gun from a bipod that is attached to a forend that is attached to the barrel with a rubber o-ring you can't expect accurate results.
If you want true results from any gun you must eliminate all human error by shooting from a bench with the gun in a vise.

The cryogenic tempering processor uses a computer controlled process which is accurate to 1/10th of 1Â° F. The gun barrels are slowly cooled from room temperature down to -300Â°F at a rate of less than one degree per minute. The barrels are then held at -300Â°F for 24 hours and then slowly returned to room temperature.
The Deep Cryogenic Processors utilize a dry process, where no liquid comes into contact with the firearm barrel(s). Barrels are then Triple tempered at +300Â°F. The entire process takes over 48 hours to complete, thus eliminating any risk of thermal shock.

Cryo-Stabilizing is a one time permanent process that refines the barrels grain structure at the molecular level to produce a homogeneously stabilized barrel. It is this process that creates a more uniform, stress relieved, smoother surface that reduces friction, heat and wear.

Most people that are uneducated in metallurgy will scoff at and doubt if freezing a gun barrel will do anything for it!
I have personally done the freezer thing to many gun barrels that would start shooting fliers after a couple rounds and it worked everytime, I have done this to barrels that have been overheated from firing to many rounds thru them without letting them cool down, most of todays U.S. manufactures mass produce their firearms which as with anything mass produced results in a quality reduction.
If a barrel is not properly manufactured ( bore is not concentric with the OD) and stress releived it will always be inaccurate.
As bullets travel thru the bore of a barrel they will great friction which will result in heat transfered to the metal barrel as the barrel heats up the metal will expand, if the molecular structure of the barrel is not even the metal will expand differently at different points of the barrels length resulting in a slightly warped barrel. Freezing the metal will help stabalize the molecular structure of the barrel, if a barrel that is not stres releaved starts shooting off with only 3 shoots fired thru it then it will probably keep getting worse with more shoots.
To canfirm the accuracy of a barrel at least 5 shot groups should be fired without letting the barrel cool between shots, the final analysis shoud be made with a 7 shot group.
Again get rid of the o-ring as it will only put the forend/receiver in a bind and put slight preasure/tension on the barrel which will result in warping the barrel as it heats up. If you insist on using an o-ring at least remove the forend shoe and reinstall it onto the rear of the forend in the correct position as to conform with the tolerances you have created by adding the o-ring as a spacer.

Sourdough · « **Reply #11 on:** February 01, 2005, 07:56:36 PM »

Forget the freezer, just leave it in my pickup overnight. It's -55 (that's 55 below zero) right now. No chill factor straight temp, a lot colder than any home freezer. Took a shot at a coyote today out on the flood control plan. It was -35 and bullet did not make it to the target, 350 yards out. Saw a puff of snow about 2/3s of the way. Cold really affects pressure. Actually I knew better I just wanted to see where it would hit the ground. Wondered if it would even shoot at that temp. Gosh I hate it when it's this cold. Almost too cold to go outside.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #12 on:** February 01, 2005, 08:00:22 PM »

Quote from: Sourdough

.... Almost too cold to go outside.

Almost?

Do ya think!!!! :eek: I'm picturin Tim Taylor's snotsickles!!

Rustyinfla · « **Reply #13 on:** February 02, 2005, 07:34:43 PM »

The warehouse I haul out of has an ice cream freezer that goes down to -40. I wonder if that would be better than my zero degrees home freezer?

Rusty <><

lik2hunt · « **Reply #14 on:** February 03, 2005, 12:13:10 AM »

I hope the FBI don't get wind of this...........they'll think there's some kind of conspiracy going on............what with barrels and barreled actions stuck in home and comercial freezers all over the country! :-D

Mine will be going in soon, good advice......I'm sold.

ONE HOLE 4570 · « **Reply #15 on:** February 03, 2005, 01:45:47 AM »

sounds intreresting I may have to give it a try, has anybody done this & had there groups get worse?? No one has mentioned it I have one in need of some TLC to shrink the groups I'll give it a try as well. Should be interesting when wives all over the country find barrels in the freezer when the go to get the steaks out :-D :-D

jk3006 · « **Reply #16 on:** February 04, 2005, 03:34:07 PM »

Sorry, I've been away from the computer for a couple of days, otherwise I would have commented. I will be getting out on Monday, or so it looks, and I will definitely try the freezer thing before then. Do you think I can just put the whole gun in the freezer, scope and all? I don't want to take it off.

Jon

marv · « **Reply #17 on:** February 04, 2005, 05:13:06 PM »

jk 30-06 I don't think I would put scope in the freeser Just my
thoughts. Marv

quickdtoo · « **Reply #18 on:** February 04, 2005, 05:23:47 PM »

I've put scopes in a freezer before, but to test em for fogproofing. But, FWIW, there are a lot of hunters that have been on hunts where their rifles were left in their trucks overnight as opposed to bringing them in the warm tent, I certainly don't think it's gonna harm it for an overnight in the frieezer! If it does, I don't think I'd want to rely on it for a hunt. Just don't warm it too fast, let it warm up on the porch or somewhere cool. My scope tests are freeze it overnight, then put it in warm water, if it's gonna leak, you'll know it!

handirifle · « **Reply #19 on:** February 04, 2005, 05:58:27 PM »

Roostertails
You just might be on to something here. This is an interesting post.

ScatterGunner · « **Reply #20 on:** February 04, 2005, 07:08:37 PM »

i would like to here fredm's 2 cents on soaking a barrel at freezer temperatures.

by trade, i'm an engineer with a strong background in physics. i thought about this and can't see for the life of me how the carbon/iron molecular structure can migrate fast enough into a more desired structure after a few hours next to the swansons !

i'm not doubting anyone, i would just like to hear a technical explanation !

sg

quickdtoo · « **Reply #21 on:** February 04, 2005, 07:53:54 PM »

Well, here are a couple pages of opinions, some from knowledgeable individuals. One of the posters even had a cryo treatment done and felt if was a waste of money....maybe a poor treatment process, too though. Unfortunetly, Fred's gonna be gone for a couple months.

http://rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83944

hellacatcher · « **Reply #22 on:** February 05, 2005, 01:38:14 AM »

Having talk to some lab people at a locale steel mill the can't see putting a barrel in a home freezer would do any good. One of them said if that would do it, so would hunting out in zero degree weather. If it looks like this would help I would be the first to fill my freezer with barrels, :wink: may any way sounds like a good place to store them :?

OBXPilgrim · « **Reply #23 on:** February 05, 2005, 12:15:25 PM »

If ya'll don't mind someone else jumping in on this, I wouldn't mind adding a few words (guess I will whether you wanted or not actually).

I don't doubt that it could work - the results are going to depend on "how bad was it". 50 people may try the same trick and only one or two may see any actual improvements. Just like the guy that said the cryo was a waste of money - was probably right if he already had a good barrel.

Most barrels are "through hardened" where the steel is quenched after being heated. The carbon content (among other alloys) of the steel has everything to do with what temperatures are involved with both the heating and the quenching. How that barrel comes out has alot of factors involved. Steel changes structure during this process and "tempering" usually is all that is needed to "stabilize" it. If the steel needs "stabilizing" or "tempering" time of 2 hrs - the first 30 minutes would be much more critical than the last 30 minutes - it logrithmic.

If, say, the barrel were removed after only an hour by an employee wanting to rush through some parts, that barrel might not be as stable as a barrel that was left in the tempering furnace for 4 hours - when someone running the furnace went home sick a half day early.

The cold temps (especially cyro with much lower temps) could "stabilize" a "bad" barrel. A "good" barrel might not see any improvement at all.

If I saw an improvement after a day or two in the freezer, I might think seriously about sending a barrel off for cryo processing. BTW, I've never sent a barrel to have one cryo'd or put one in a freezer - haven't ever had one that I thought was that bad.

I'm not a metallurgist but have worked as a QA Metallurgy technician (don't know it all, just enough to get me in trouble).

I have seen gears that were improperly heat treated and ended up with light "carbide" structure scattered at the surface of the steel (cut-up cross sections & 100X microscope) which caused low surface hardness. The gears were put in "deep freeze" for 24 hours. After warming back up, tested surface hardness was ok, cut-ups (and 100X microscope) showed the "carbides" transformed into "tempered martensite".

Don't tell me it can't work, just depends on how bad your barrel was and/or how low you go (temp)

Tried to keep it short - sorry

Donaldo · « **Reply #24 on:** February 05, 2005, 02:50:39 PM »

Just for my 2 centavos, I would say, don't condemn it until you have tried it. I have done a bit of heat treating myself, not scientifically, but on tools, knives, etc that I made, etc. I do know this that the structure, the molecular structure, of metals can and does change with temperature and the length of time it is exposed to that temperature and how long it took to bring it back to "room temp". I also know that steel has a memory. You get a barrel that tends to walk, it just may be due to the fact that it was stressed or maybe straightened during the milling or rolling process, before it got the the barrel making operation. Or maybe as it came out of the furnace it got cooled to fast or too slow. Who knows? If you got a barrel that walks as it heats, why don't you freeze it for a few days and see what happens. Don't cost much if anything. Then you can speak with some authority. Then you can say " I tried it and it don't (or does) work". Seems simple enough to me.

JPH45 · « **Reply #25 on:** February 05, 2005, 04:22:54 PM »

What kind of steel are we talking about? Metalurgical studies were done ont he rivets of Titanic. It was found they had too great an amount of sulfer in them (A common problem with founding process of the day) and the extra cold of the North Atlantic made them more brittle than they shoul dhave been, and they broke on impact withthe iceberg, causing a far greater opening in the hull than should have been and the Titanic sank. I seriously doubt subjecting a barrle made from modern steels using modern founding processes will stress relieve it.

Sourdough, I've heard it gets cold enough up there that an ax can break when it strikes wood. Any truth to that? I wonder if that is a left over from the old days, when the steel used to make axes would have had the same problems as that of the Titanic's rivets?

I agree with an earlier statment....if putting a barrel in a freezer would change its grouping abilities, so would leaving it in a truck overnight or being exposed all day on a hunt.

jk3006, I suggest removing that bipod and resting the rifle on a padded rest between the frame and the forearm screw and see how it shoots then. Vertical stringing has been a repeated problem over the 2 years I have been on this and the old H&R site. Commonly, rifle hold is suggested as a root cause, the Handi seems particularly sensitive. I find this to be true, but not all the problem. My rifles shoot best with the forearm very slighty loose. No o-rings, paper, or other stuff. I lightly rasp out the hole for the screw lug and check it for fit untill the forearms goes on freely. I then only tighten the screw untill the forearm has just a slight amount of free play. You should feel it move, but it shouldn't rattle. Finally I don't expect benchrest accuracy from these rifles. While some report that, my common groups hover at 1.5". My 30-30 will group the factory Remington 150 SP into 3/8" I've yet to come up with a handload that will do as well as often. Sourdough is on the right track, let your practice simulate your hunting as much as possible. Most matches are fired at a rate of 5 or 10 shots in 10 minutes. Take a watch with you when you shoot, and let that dictate your firing reate, see what you get. Good Luck,

John

jk3006 · « **Reply #26 on:** February 06, 2005, 04:34:44 AM »

eagleeye said, "oh and I wasn't to lazy to take the scope off before I put the barrel in the freezer".

Ouch. It took me almost a half an hour to mount that scope to get everything centered and the screws even, and I don't want to go through that process again unless I absolutely half to. Plus, my scope is a Leupold and it better handle those cold temps.

Jon

jk3006 · « **Reply #27 on:** February 08, 2005, 04:04:14 PM »

Alright. I finally got to shoot the rifle a little bit this afternoon. I was in a hurry, and as a result the barrel wasn't able to cool all the way down after each shot. However, the temp was 10 degrees, so the barrel never got hot either.

I fired five shot groups. I left the rubber washer on for the first group. I didn't use a bipod this time, but instead had the rifle sitting in one of those supports that have a v-rest for both the front and the rear. The group measured 3.5 inches with very bad vertical stringing.

The second group was shot with the rubber washer removed. It measured 2.25 inches

The third group was shot with the forend completely removed and the rifle rested in front of the trigger assembly and behind the forearm. The group measured 6.25 and had horrible vertical stringing.

Then, just for the heck of it, I shot the same load, only with one less grain of powder. I put the fored back on, along with the rubber washer. After firing two five shot groups, they measured 1.5 and 1.25 respectively. There was no vertical stringing in either group, only the random stuff that usually goes on.

So, maybe my load was just a little too hot, even though I had tested the loads previously and thought the hotter one to have the most potential.

Anyhow, I am going to do more testing, and I'm not sure I'll be able to get those five-shot groups under an inch. But, if that's the case, it'll be fine 'cause that's still not too bad.

Jon

Donaldo · « **Reply #28 on:** February 08, 2005, 07:09:43 PM »

I have posted on this before but here goes again. I have tried all summer to find a load that shot as good as the WW45JHP stuff. I am talking about 200+ rounds of several powders and makes of bullets. Finally I got some W748 just for the heck of it. Set up a ladder of loads with the 52 SMK. Well at exactly 27.0 grains groups went from 1.6 -2.5 inches down to less than 1 inch. I was going in jumps of 0.5 grain per load. So I went back to 26.8, 27.0, 27.2, 27.4, five rounds each. Went back to the range. 27.0 was back to 1/2 to 5/8 inch, the rest were all in the range of 1.5 to 2.0 inches. This is a 223 Ultra Varmint with the normal tweeks we all do. So if you have tried a bunch of loads or brands, don't give up, you may only be 0.2 grains away from that great load.

jk3006 · « **Reply #29 on:** February 09, 2005, 03:23:52 PM »

Donaldo,

Thanks for the info. I take it that you must have to carefully weigh each charge of that 27 grain load, or else the group would be totally blown if the powder thrower was .2 or more off at times. I know mine won't consistently throw those charges without weighing them. That does give me some hope, and I'll have to see what I can find out.

Jon