Author Topic: Heavy Kickers - defined (Read 3102 times)

T/C nimrod · « **on:** February 05, 2003, 03:54:32 PM »

RickyP used the term(s) "heavy kickers" in a previous post. This comes at a time when I found out someone sold a 7-30 Waters (ported) because it was too much recoil. My first though was "pansy", but then I realized recoil is different for everybody.

This being said, where do you draw the line for a caliber (in a Contender and/or Encore and/or G2 - hehe) to need a three ring scope setup? I have one on a .357 Herret. Don't know if I'll truly need one on my .30 Herret, and time will tell if the Duo-mount will hold up on my .41 mag.

Any ideas? I don't feel my 7-30 Waters needs one, but the gentleman mentioned previousy may think differently.

KN · « **Reply #1 on:** February 05, 2003, 04:18:41 PM »

There are a lot of variables to that question. Caliber, barell length, porting, hot load, rifle, pistol, shooter size, "pansy", "real man". Well you get my point. What may of may not be considered a real kicker to one, is to another. Personally I have never used more than two rings on a scope. I have pistol barrels in 45/70, 450 marlin 308, 444 marlin, etc. I have never lost a scope yet or had one slip. I mount my rings as far apart as I can and add an extra screw to the weaver style bases at the front. Works for me, KN

Flatlander.54 · « **Reply #2 on:** February 05, 2003, 04:20:26 PM »

The worst I ever saw on an Encore I had was a 14" .444 Marlin barrel. No matter how you held it the thing would end up pointing to the side when you touched it off. Until I fired that set-up, I was convinced there wasnt a pistol made that I couldnt control and hit the target with...BIG wake up call....after 5 shots, one ripped open thumb, and a heck of a sore wrist later, (not to mention a whole lot of crow)....I decided that the fun had just been taken out of the whole situation.
I did not have a scope mounted on this gun and thinking about it now Im sure that would have soaked up some of the felt recoil, but at the time I was wondering just what kind of ring and base set-up would withstand repeated pounding from that thumper. I didnt know at the time they even made three ring mounts. I have never fired a 7-30 Waters like you mentioned but I know when you get up in the range of (and prolly before) a .444 or .45/70 a three ring mount dang sure wouldnt hurt nothin.

T/C nimrod · « **Reply #3 on:** February 05, 2003, 04:32:04 PM »

KN - that's exactly why I'm asking! Some calibers, guns, setups may react differently - which is why I use the term "needs". My .357 Herret just would not hold a scope with two rings. Burris, Weaver, Redfield it didn't matter. Put a three ring on - problem solved. Maybe it was just that barrel - but it "needed" three rings.

billjoe · « **Reply #4 on:** February 05, 2003, 04:53:05 PM »

I read somewhere that 3 rings not only helps keep the scope from moving, but also protects the scope from shock better because of the increased surface area that the rings cover. I have a 14" 7-30 that I would say is not a piece of cake to shoot, but is definitely shooter-fun friendly. :grin: My 14" 223 on the other hand is a piece of cake to shoot. Neither of these need protection with extra scope rings, in my opinion.

Now my 375JDJ is another matter. I would consider this caliber a serious kicker :shock: to shoot and 3 rings is a good idea just from the standpoint of minimizing the pressure on the contact points of the scope. In fact when I bought my Burris Zee rings, I had to buy 2 pairs to get 3 rings so I just used all 4 on the JDJ. This is over kill most likely, but what do you do with 1 extra ring except waste it by storing it in a drawer. I've had no problems with the scope.

Do you need the extra rings? Guess I'd rather be safe than take the chance of damaging a valuable scope or having one fly off and wopin' me in the knoggin?

bj

rdc in MN · « **Reply #5 on:** February 05, 2003, 05:17:48 PM »

I have a 14 444marlin that has three rings on it(it was a used setup when I bought it). It kicks pretty good, but thats the way I like it. Without question it depends on the shooter-some pepole don't like it, some sickos like it (I'm in this group). :-D

KN · « **Reply #6 on:** February 05, 2003, 06:06:30 PM »

I hope no one thought I was putting down three ring setups, I certainly wasn't. I just never used one and am probably lucky I never broke a scope. I'm thinking of getting one of those 375 H&H barrels when they become available and shortening it to a usable pistol length. Probably around 16-18", magnaported. Definitly look into the three ring setup for that. Hey TC, I have an 11" 444 that I play with open sighted & non ported, Kicks and twists severly to the left. Have to take my watch off to shoot it or my watch band slaps the crap out of my wrist. Just the way I like them!! KN

MePlat · « **Reply #7 on:** February 05, 2003, 09:01:38 PM »

Would a 14 inch Encore in 458 Win Mag or 50 Alaskan qualify? 500 gr at slightly over 1900 in the 458. What do you think? :wink:

KN · « **Reply #8 on:** February 05, 2003, 10:30:25 PM »

No, you have to hit 2000fps to qualify. (Yeah, Right) KN

moon · « **Reply #9 on:** February 06, 2003, 02:48:25 AM »

To answer your question--IMHO the two calibers that are kickers--44Mag {with full power loads} and the 357 Herritt :-D

rickyp · « **Reply #10 on:** February 06, 2003, 05:34:28 AM »

When I use the term heavy kickers I am not referring to the persons ability to shoot it.
Almost any barrel can be a heavy kicker if setup wrong.
I had a 22 magnum that I considered a heavy kicker ( don't laugh). For some reason I could not keep it from flipping up every time I shot. when I put it down and pick up my 375 jdj (with break and 3 rings) I would have no trouble with muzzle jump.
If I have a question if a barrel will be a heavy kicker or not i will go ahead and install a 3 rd ring. rings are cheep compared to a scope

One other reason I put 3 rings on a barrel, just because I like the looks of the 3 rings

Selmer · « **Reply #11 on:** February 06, 2003, 06:53:04 AM »

Does a 12" .454 Casull on the Encore qualify for this category? I haven't received my barrel yet, but I have a set of Denzel Roberts Recoil Tamer grips that will hopefully help control it a bit.
Selmer

Warhoop · « **Reply #12 on:** February 06, 2003, 07:39:14 AM »

Well Selmer I would say your up coming venture with the 454 Casull will be an eye opener . My son shoots the 12 inch encore I load it with the 300 gr xtp Mag Bullet about 1750 fps across a chrono it will back up on you when I shoot it I put the rubber grips on it Its not a one handed shooter also use the nosler 260 gr at 2078 fps that load hurts the hand nice stingkicks harder than my 450 marlin with the muzzle tamer on it GOT TO LOVE THE BIG GUNS :wink:Mt son is about 6.2 230 lbs he has big hands love more bang for the buck

Selmer · « **Reply #13 on:** February 06, 2003, 08:08:38 AM »

Warhoop, your son is exactly my size and I have a ten-inch hand spread, so I think I'll be able to handle it, I'm starting out with 255 gr. cast with a moderate charge of Universal behind it, I'll work my way up to those powehouse loads. You can get an honest 2000 fps out of the 260gr, eh? What a whitetail slayer, I can't wait!
Selmer

MePlat · « **Reply #14 on:** February 06, 2003, 08:51:15 AM »

To qualify as a heavy kicker how much would the foot pound energy would a heavy kicker have to have to qualify? let me tell you about my 458 Win Mag Encore pistol. Ha Ha. :eek:

JD HHI 6092® · « **Reply #15 on:** February 06, 2003, 08:52:48 AM »

An 8" 375 winchester TC barrel i used to own.

myronman3 · « **Reply #16 on:** February 06, 2003, 02:41:17 PM »

i now have a 30-30 that i think is a pussycat, and my 223 is definatly tame. i shoot my 454 alot and although it isnt a gun you want to shoot all day, i think it is quite tolerable. i think a HUGE factor in the 35 punishing me was the grip. that hard plastic s.o.b. would HURT my hand something fierce. i wish i had a chance to try it again with the softer grip, i am convinced that the grip was responsible for my bad experience with the 35. too bad, i did love that caliber alot.

handcanon · « **Reply #17 on:** February 06, 2003, 02:47:51 PM »

My 45-70 with 535 gr. hot loads and its mag-na-ported but you don't want to shoot it all day or after 10 shots for that matter!!

thomas · « **Reply #18 on:** February 06, 2003, 03:23:17 PM »

Well I have a 15" encore in 458 Win Mag.
I have never shot anything like it before..makes a 45-70 and a 444 seem really tame
Tom

rickyp · « **Reply #19 on:** February 06, 2003, 03:38:10 PM »

some of you guys have more balls then brains :-D

anyone having trouble with your hand or wrist yet

thomas · « **Reply #20 on:** February 06, 2003, 03:54:40 PM »

Three to four shots and trigger finger is bleeding.
While I was working up loads after ten shots I had bruised my palm.
I still wonder why I had the 458 Win Mag made.
Brutal is the Key word here Not recoil.
Yes your are right My brain took the day off when I sent the money to have this pistol barrel built.
This barrel has hammered me in the forehead once when I was not holding it properly.
Think I should have had a brake put on it But I did not want to loose any FPS
Tom

rickyp · « **Reply #21 on:** February 06, 2003, 04:02:21 PM »

I would reather loose some FPS then feeling in my hand

Jay HHI6818 · « **Reply #22 on:** February 06, 2003, 04:13:19 PM »

I had trouble with the scope moving with 3 rings on my 35-06JDJ. I installed the 4'th ring and them it would turn in the rings until I used rosin on the inside of 4 rings.

PaulS · « **Reply #23 on:** February 06, 2003, 04:15:35 PM »

Heavy kicker?
It depends on the weapon and it's design. My bolt action rifles anything over 7 fps recoil velocity is severe while in my revolvers I can accommodate up to 10 fps recoil velocity. In my Contender I can hold up to 11 fps in recoil velocity.

Energy has little to do with my comfort level - Velocity has a great deal to do with it. My bolt actions weight 10 lbs - my Contender a bit over 4 and my revolver is at 2+ pounds. I can shoot a 12 gauge load at 1350 fps with a 1 1/4 oz load and not have it feel bad at all - give me a 200 grain 3006 at 2400 fps and I might cry. If the muzzle blast is severe it makes the "felt recoil" even worse. I have tried to work up to a heavy load to "get used to " the heavier recoil but all I develope is a flinch.

PaulS

MePlat · « **Reply #24 on:** February 06, 2003, 07:51:53 PM »

THOMAS I sure would like to see a pic of you firing that unbraked 458 Mag. Have you got a pic?

KN · « **Reply #25 on:** February 06, 2003, 08:59:35 PM »

Who made the 458 barrel? I asked SSK about one once and they said they wouldn't make it without a brake. KN

HBL · « **Reply #26 on:** February 07, 2003, 01:55:16 AM »

The two biggest recoil contender barrels I shoot are the 44Mag and the 375 JDJ. Neither has a brake. IMO, pistols are loud enough and the brake on a short barrel only makes it worse.

For me, if I need a brake on one of my pistol barrels, I will go to a lesser recoil caliber.

Matter of fact, I have even considered selling my 375JDJ now that I am getting older and the recoil is beginning to get a little unpleasant after 15-20 rounds.

To each his own, that's what makes shooting so much fun.

Good Shooting.

Ladobe · « **Reply #27 on:** February 07, 2003, 03:42:51 AM »

With lots of upper body strength and very strong hands, I really like to shoot all of my JDJ's and Super Bower's. The 375JDJ is a blast, and really gets alot of attention at the range. I have no problem one-handing it, and have done 100 round bouts with it with no "after-shocks". Even use it in the digger fields sometimes - comes in handy when the dogs get nervous and go down their holes - a well placed shot into the mound can reach them up to 5 feet down - HA! On the other hand, I had a factory 12" Encore 454 Casull that with top drawer factory ammo (Freedom Arms 260 gr. and chuck full of H110) was something to behold. Torque was the culprit more than the recoil - it tried its best to twist right out of your hand. I could handle it OK one-handed, but never tried any 100 round bouts with it. A pard who shoots 338#2 and 375 JDJ's managed 3 down the tube before saying no more, and he got 2 split knuckles in the deal shooting it two-handed. We ran it through his 35P, and if memory serves, it worked out to something like 36 foot pounds of recoil on the Encore. Anyway, I remember it as being a lot worse than any of my other handcannons. FWIW

Johnly · « **Reply #28 on:** February 07, 2003, 05:30:22 AM »

Besides one's personal physical tolerance to recoil, the grip installed on your Contender has a tremendous effect on perceived recoil. Years ago, I made exactly one trip(and about 3 rounds down range) with the standard thumbrest wood grip on my Contender outfitted with a 14" 444 Marlin barrel pushing 265 gr Hornady bullets. After installing Pachmayer grips on it, dropping the hammer was no longer accompanied with sharp pain, just blunt trauma.:grin: I even managed to log a 36x40 with it at one match I fired for fun.

In comparison, my 12" hunter in 375 win is a pussycat to shoot. It was a pleasant surprise to learn first hand how effective the muzzle brake was. One downside to the having a muzzle break is that the muzzle blast is significantly increased.

thomas · « **Reply #29 on:** February 07, 2003, 12:54:46 PM »

I am sure I can make a pic of the barrel, but no I do not have a pic of it being fired. My wife made a video of my freind and I at the range and it does push you back in the chair a bit.
Like I said before it makes my 45-70 very tame feeling. The pressures are much higher in the WinMag compared to the 45-70 or the 444.
the velocity is consistantly higher by 400-500 fps depends on the load.
It can blow the Chrony clean over on the stand due to muzzle blast.
Tom