Author Topic: Time To Re-write The Bible.......again! (Read 3685 times)

BamBams · « **on:** February 02, 2005, 01:47:26 PM »

New Bible Translation Upsets Some Christians
Wednesday, February 02, 2005

WASHINGTON Â— A new Bible translation, aimed at younger readers, is drawing fire from some scholars.

Today's New International Version (search), or TNIV, has just been published in complete form by Zondervan Publishing. It's meant for the prime-time demographic: adults 18 to 34 years old.

In this new translation, some masculine references are made more gender-neutral.

Genesis 1:27, "so God created man in his own image" in the more traditional New International Version, is changed in the TNIV to "so God created human beings in his own image."

"In situations in the Bible where it is very clear from the original language, and also from the context, that the writer or the speaker was talking to men and women, that is simply provided accurately and specifically in the TNIV," explains Paul Caminiti of Zondervan, which is owned by the parent company of FOX News.

God remains a "he" in the TNIV. But some critics say this translation changes the meaning of some Old Testament verses that may foreshadow Jesus' life.

For example, Psalm 34:19 in the more traditional New International Version (search) reads: "A righteous man may have many troubles, but the Lord delivers him from them all; He protects all his bones, not one of them will be broken."

Many Christians believe this verse predicts the Crucifixion, in which it is said none of Jesus' bones were broken.

But the TNIV reads: "The righteous may have many troubles, but the Lord delivers them from them all; He protects all their bones, not one of them will be broken."

"It obscures the prediction of a specific man Â— that is the Messiah, Jesus Â— that would be fulfilled in the New Testament, and now it's pluralized," says Wayne Grudem, research professor of Bible and theology at Phoenix Seminary (search) in Arizona.

jh45gun · « **Reply #1 on:** February 02, 2005, 02:42:38 PM »

I have heard this kind of stuff before in a Catholic Church no less. You get used to hearing certain phrases and all of sudden the priest comes up with a new way of saying it! Its like where did that come from?

?? Jim

powderman · « **Reply #2 on:** February 02, 2005, 03:15:03 PM »

Shame on em. Gods word is not to be added to, or taken away from. POWDERMAN. :? :? :? :? :? :?

ButlerFord45 · « **Reply #3 on:** February 02, 2005, 04:07:19 PM »

I grew up with the King James version of the bible. I guess I was a teenager before the realization that the Bible had not been originally written in old English dawned on me. How's that for naive? That version was translated by a bunch of scolars that had a far poorer grasp of translation than is possible today. On the other hand the later version, "International"

? seems so paraphrased it doesen't even FEEL like the Bible when you read it so I went back to the King James and it makes me feel good every time I open it. I guess if a "New Bible" will help bring the lost back to God, it's a good thing. Besides, who am I to question God's plan?

Leftoverdj · « **Reply #4 on:** February 02, 2005, 04:16:11 PM »

Powderman, all we have are translations, often translations of translations. Language does not stand still. Words do not mean today what they meant 400 years ago, and we can only guess at their meaning in a different culture 4000 years ago. Even in contemporary writing, it may be unclear whether "man" means "a homo sapiens male" or "mankind".

ironglow · « **Reply #5 on:** February 02, 2005, 04:39:25 PM »

Those "disputed" terms that some mention have, for the most part been settled by serious CHRISTIAN scholars long ago...the very few that are still in dispute (by some) are generally of no great consequence. ( "such as the camel through the eye of a needle" passage..
The Dead Sea Scrolls have attested to the accuracy of today's Bible, and reinforced confidence in the scriptures..

Some of the newer translations are quite good, such as the New King James version ( Liberty U.) and are fully useful..

Some of the others, such as the Good News For Modern man version or this new Zondervan version ( which actually changes not only the words but the full meaning of many passages ...are very suspect, as I see it...

To be fair, the man who compiled the " Good News" version, himself said that it was only a "paraphrase"...

Anyone who undertakes to change the meaning and terms of the Bible is playing with his own eternal life...( Rev 22: 18,19...

This warning must be VERY important as it is God's LAST warning ...beyond that, there are only three more sentences of scripture in the entire Bible!!!

I have taught many years on these subjects and occasionally preach ( as fill in) and have been disturbed by the lurch to inaccuracy by Zondervan...
Due to their callous disregard for the Bible...no more Zondervan products for me...and I will spread the word...

powderman · « **Reply #6 on:** February 02, 2005, 04:40:19 PM »

LODJ. I understand what you are saying, but when the entire meaning is changed I can't see how that can be better. I was raised using the king James version and believe it to be correct. I've read some of the NIV and have not seen any really big changes except that they used simpler words, which makes for easier reading and understanding. I do not believe that a gender neutral Bible would be welcomed by the Almighty. This of course, is just my opinion. POWDERMAN.

williamlayton · « **Reply #7 on:** February 02, 2005, 11:04:30 PM »

WEll now, a good discussion.
I am fond of the KJV, the NAS, NIV, ENGLISH, etc. I read them all, side by side if I am doing a study. Some are literal translations, some are translated different.
I think you get a pretty complete view of the word with most, though I do not think so of any paraphrased bible, but I refer to them.
I only have one problem with scripture and it is not with scripture, it is with those who would put up one as THE standard and all else are as much as mistranslations or worse.
Got asked to leave one such church because the folks were in such heat about the subject that anyone who saw it different (well that and if you did not read the original you were not qualified to have an opinion) were just wrong. Things came to a head when I gave tha feller a copy of the original KJV in form and words and suggested he should rid himself of the newer translation.
The KJV is a translation of one set of codex,There are others and I like the fact that we can read translations using all of the information available.
Some have said we do not have the original scripts but I will maintain that we have 110% of the original. some codex's have the copiers own notes in them, which changes the apparent form of the text, but not the truth of the content--such is the need for biblical criticism.
Now boys the point is not to own em to show em off, carry em to church---The point is to use em up by stdyin em.
Blessings

mag41vance · « **Reply #8 on:** February 03, 2005, 12:08:11 AM »

You would have to go back to the original Greek to understand all the tense's of verbs nouns and so on. The Greek lexicons are only as good / Accurate as the Greek scholars that put them together.
When Christ was preparing His disciples for His departure from the earth at the ascension, He promised Christian people a comforter. John 14:16 (The Holy Spirit spoken of also in Acts 1 at pentecost)
God also breathed His inspired word through the apostles who wrote down His word.
Time and a multitude of translations have not been all that accurate at times, but Gods Word will stand any test of time. It requires that believers apply themselves to study.
With the leading of the Holy Spirit in the lives of Believers, the verse in
II Tim 2:15 " Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that need not be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." is the mandate for understanding and interpeting scripture.

unspellable · « **Reply #9 on:** February 03, 2005, 02:48:48 AM »

If the King James version was good enough for Paul, it's good enough for me!

More seriously, there are a lot of problems with both the question of what's the authorative text and the translation of it. It's an ongoing field of study.

I some times suspect things were arranged to give rise to the classical Greek language for the purpose of writing the New Testament in it. It's an extremely well suited language for the purpose.

Translations can be a headache. I lived in South America for a while. They would sometimes say, "El condor pasa." I fully understand the meaning in Spanish but in twenty years I have not figured out a good way to say it in English.

Brett · « **Reply #10 on:** February 03, 2005, 03:03:08 AM »

I say amen to what both Williamlayton and mag41vance have said. I generally read the NIV Study Bible because of the simple straight forward language it's written in but when I want to do serious study I use Nelson's Ultimate Bible Reference Library program, a 2 CD set which has about 15 different Bibles plus a boat load of other study guides, maps, dictionaries and commentaries. But before I open any of them I bow my head and ask the Holy Spirit for guidance and understanding in what I am about to read. Now if I would just apply myself to study more I'ld be a better person and the Lord would be a lot happier with me. :wink:

BamBams · « **Reply #11 on:** February 03, 2005, 03:50:21 AM »

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If the King James version was good enough for Paul, it's good enough for me!

Problem is, it wasn't. Paul lived about 1500 years before 1611 AD. Of course, Paul, himself, authored a great deal of the New Testament. He would have likely read from the same "Septuagint" version that Christ often quoted.

The 1611 KJV is riddled with minor errors. The goal was to translate into a prose pleasing to the King, and it does have a beautiful prose and cadence to it. As others have pointed out, those errors don't hide the bigger truth of God's word.

I enjoy many versions. One of my favorites is the Latin "Vulgate" translated by Jerome when he was hiding in a cave for 8 years. I've never read a more beautiful rendition of the "Potter's House."

For devotional reading, I use the New International Version.

For serious study, I use the New American Standard Bible.

The NIV is an allegorical translation (idea for idea) and the NASB is a more literal (word for word) translation - realizing that both are only best attempts.

ironglow · « **Reply #12 on:** February 03, 2005, 04:34:16 AM »

Bam Bams;
I believe that statement about the KJV being good enough for Paul was just Unspellable's effort at some wry humor...

To all;
Some translations put forth by liberals would like to downplay the Diety of Christ...
One test I often use to check the sincerity of the translations when I first encounter them, is to turn to.... 1 Tim 3:16...

In all the best translations it clearly states that "GOD was manifested in the flesh"...reinforcing the incarnation of Christ..

Some translations like to say things like "he who was revealed in the flesh" .....leaves those that don't want to face Christ as God...a little "wiggle room".

The interlinears etc. back up the words " God was manifested"...

Rest assured, if a given translation dissembles on this verse, it will avoid confirming the Diety of Christ throughout the rest of their work!

" Ye shall know them by their fruits..." ( Matt 7:16)

unspellable · « **Reply #13 on:** February 03, 2005, 06:00:19 AM »

I make much the same test except that I use the opening verses of the Gospel of John.

I advise any one to read the opening few verses of John. The rest of the Bible, both old and new testaments, is a commentary on these few verses.

The thing about the KJ being good enough for Paul is a hoary old joke.

Paul would have been very familiar with the Hebrew version of the day as well as the Septuagint. Paul was a lawyer and the first assignment in training for the law in Paul's society was to literally memorize the Old Testament word for word in the Hebrew.

It is likely that Christ actually quoted from the Hebrew. The Septuagint originated in Alexandria and was used by those who spoke Greek. Not overly common among the common people in Judea at the time. The writers of the New Testamnt probably quoted from the Septuagint since they were writing in Greek which was the Lingua Franca of the day.

The time was right for the spread of the gospel since the Roman empire had built a road system and enforced the peace while Greek was a very wide spread language even if not everyone spoke it. It was the first time in history when people could travel freely over great distances in almost any direction.

The original meaning of the word "barbarian" was to denote a person who did not speak Greek. It had nothing to do with how civilized that person was or wasn't.

williamlayton · « **Reply #14 on:** February 04, 2005, 01:00:27 AM »

I, like Bams, Prefer the NAS when studying. It is a good base for a word by word bible, the NIV is a better than the rest paraphrasing or sentence by sentence thought. But I use em all along with every other help and advice I can read.
I have found that if I read a lot of other folks, from liberal to conservative, I see a much better picture. By liberal I am not speaking of Bibles I am speaking along the lines of commentators and thinkers and THEN those folks are confirmed Christian not just liberal scholars.
I like studying denominations and cults, want to know who they are and why they take the stands they take. Have never been lead into prophecy by, the Spirit, understand it some but it has never consumed me.
Now what folks believe and why they believe it is different. Folks, it is amazing how we can go around killing our own over thoughts on the Lords Supper, day of worship, ritual, forms of worship, music, musical instruments, dress codes, baptisms, ways to get saved, correctness in every stripe---It boggles my mind and makes me sad.
Blessings

Brett · « **Reply #15 on:** February 04, 2005, 02:54:54 AM »

Quote from: williamlayton

Now what folks believe and why they believe it is different. Folks, it is amazing how we can go around killing our own over thoughts on the Lords Supper, day of worship, ritual, forms of worship, music, musical instruments, dress codes, baptisms, ways to get saved, correctness in every stripe---It boggles my mind and makes me sad.
Blessings

If you think it makes you sad just think how it must make our Farther in Heaven feel. :cry:

Leftoverdj · « **Reply #16 on:** February 04, 2005, 08:30:35 AM »

Don't lose the poetry, folks. The majestic rolling language of the KJV is part of the message. That's one of the problems with translations in general. An exact literal translation that has lost the rhythm and thunder of that from which it was translated has failed.

BamBams · « **Reply #17 on:** February 04, 2005, 09:08:31 AM »

Many of the psalms were songs. As a muscian, I'd sure love to hear how they were sung back then. What the rhythms were, the intruments, etc. I love churches that just toss scripture up on a projection screen and let me sing God's word to music. I could worship like that all day long.

ironglow · « **Reply #18 on:** February 04, 2005, 02:49:56 PM »

Unspellable;
Yes, the first verses of John are a good indicator of the reliability of a translation..
I find John ch 3 to be very cogent..Some folks say they are Christian, but not one of those "born again" kind..
Read John 3:3...and then 3:7 ...then tell me just what other kind of Christian there is!

The entire third chapter of John is a very good spiritual checklist...not to mention "the whole gospel in one verse" ( John 3:16 )

William;
We SHOULD agree upon the five fundamentals...beyond that we can debate...we cannot be sure of every small detail...after all " now we see through a glass, darkly " 1 Cor 13: 12a...

Bam Bams;
I know there are millions that appreciate the " words on the screen" approach " and I surely won't try to judge them...but having been caught in a service like that by visiting a church while traveling...I remained polite; but was EXTREMELY bored...too repetitious..
Primarily I go to church for the message, the music is only an adjunct.
I do prefer the old hymns of the faith...not faulting anyone that disagrees but I guess that's just the difference in people.
I suppose that if I were more musically inclined, I might like the new style "praise services" more...but I'm not and I don't...

Getting back to the subject at hand....no; I won't buy Zondervaaan's new " stealth " version of the Bible...and I'll warn others off...

powderman · « **Reply #19 on:** February 04, 2005, 03:32:35 PM »

I truly love old time gospel music. Just can't seem to get into the so called modern gospel music. I enjoy singing with our choir. I grew up listening to the Chuck wagon gang, Blackwood brothers, etc. I have gospel music by the statlers, chuck wagon gang,hee haw gospel quartet, even an Elvis gospel tape, among others.
Now, about the Bible. I believe the translations were God inspired. I don't believe he would have allowed his word to be changed in any big way, at least the meaning. I bought my wife an NIV bible a few years ago. I have not read all of it but have looked up many passages and compared them to my Bible, the king james, and have pretty well found them to mean the same, even though the NIV is in easier to read English.
I have only seen the, follow the script screen a couple of times and didn't really care for it, but thats just me.
I believe that Jesus Christ was born of a virgin, that he performed many miracles and healings in his short life on this earth. I believe that he suffered a horrible death and died for the sins of the world, so that salvation would be available to all mankind. I believe that he arose in 3 days, and that he lives, and reigns today. Other than that, I care less about other interpretations of Gods word. POWDERMAN.

ironglow · « **Reply #20 on:** February 05, 2005, 03:23:42 PM »

The five fundamentals of the faith are:

1) the diety of Christ

2) His virgin birth

3) The atonement through His blood.

4) His bodily resurrection

5) His coming return

Some include the inerrancy of scriptures....

If one has these things down solid...the rest can be debated: in other words, the rest will not put you into or keep you out of Heaven...

Just my two pennies...

BamBams · « **Reply #21 on:** February 05, 2005, 03:28:04 PM »

.......but doesn't Satan also know, and agree, to all the above, so what, exactly, does a person have to do to get to heaven? I'd really like to know. It would seem to me that simple head knowledge counts for very little here.

Brett · « **Reply #22 on:** February 05, 2005, 05:08:49 PM »

Brett, I accidently wiped out your post by hitting the wrong button. I hit edit instead of post reply. I am VERY sorry. I tried to use my "back" button to get it all back, but that was to no avail. Please repost what you said.

BamBams · « **Reply #23 on:** February 05, 2005, 05:46:02 PM »

Brett said the following:

Quote

1. Confess that you are a sinner. Romans 3:23 - Romans 5:12

Well, I know that I'm definitely far from perfect, since I don't even know what perfect really is. What constitutes a sin anyway?

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2. Know that Christ is the son of God and that he died on the cross in atonement for your sins. - Romans 5:8 - John 3:17 - John 3:36 - John 3:16

I believe that. I honestly believe that the bible is inspired by God. I've read it cover to cover, and there is NO WAY any man could have come up with all of that truth and wisdom.

Quote

3. Receive Christ's forgiveness and turn away from sin. belive in your heart and confess with your mouth that Christ paid the price for your sins. Romans 10:8-10 - Mathew 10:32 - John 1:12 - Ephesians 2:8,9.

How does I "receive" this forgiveness? As I read your references, it tells me that he died for everyone? So that means that everyone is forgiven correct? If everyone is already forgiven, what do I have to be concerned about? What am I missing here?

What confuses me are the terms, "accept" and "receive" Are we talking mental agreement? How can I "receive" something if I can't even see it?

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Satan knows He's a sinner he just won't repent of his sin (ask for Christ's forgiveness and turn away from sin) and accept Christ's forgiveness.

Could you please also elaborate a little on "repent"? I've done my share of bible study at home, and I would like to know more still. For example, the bibles I have say that Judas repented, but before that, it says that he was eternally condemned by God. Was he, or wasn't he? I mean, what if God has also condemned me, but I don't know it?

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Being "born again" in simple terms means that we have accepted Christ's forgiveness and that we are turning away from our old sinful ways (our old sinful self is dead) and we are now a new person, purified thru the blood of Christ, not by our actions but thru the grace of God. For by grace are ye saved though faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:8,9

I'll be honest here. I've tried a million times to "turn away" from what, I believed, was sinning. Like smoking, lust, fighting, cussing, drinking, and on and on. I've managed to knock off a few, but not all of it. I don't think it's possible for me to be able to become good enough to get to heaven. No matter how hard I try, I still screw up and do things the bible says are wrong. Yup, I'm probably doomed.

Quote

Baptism is a means of publicly stating our belief or faith in the above. It symbolizes the death and burial of our old sinful nature (submersion) and rebirth of a new cleansed and forgiven person (being risen from the water) as well as a reminder of Christ's death (on the cross), His burial and His resurrection from the grave.

Now this fascinates me like you wouldn't believe! So if I get baptised, my sinful nature will die, and I'll be able to become like perfect? Is there some magic that occurs in a baptism? I know that the minister says things over your head and stuff.

Brett · « **Reply #24 on:** February 05, 2005, 06:35:15 PM »

Wow, now that is freaky our post seem to have gotten jumbled together when I was trying to do an edit.

Anyway let me attempt to answer your questions as best I can.

Anything that we do think or say that is contrary to God's will is sin. Adam brought sin into the world when he disobeyed God and ate the fruit from the tree of life (also called the tree of knowledge) in the garden of Eden.

You receive Gods forgiveness thru faith. Christ did die for all of us and his forgiveness is a gift. We must choose to accept or reject that gift. I guess you could say that it is sort of a mental agreement. Would you say that your parents love you or you love your family? How do you know? Can you see love? You can see acts of love, things we do because of love but you can not actually see love. It's a feeling within our souls.

To repent means to confess that you have done wrong in the eyes of God and to commit yourself to not repeat that sin again. We are all condemned until we accept Christ and repent. When we earnestly repent God wipes the slate clean so to speak and no longer holds that sin against us.

God knows we are not perfect and does not expect us to not slip back into sin from time to time. However he does ask us to strive toward perfection. No one can ever become good enough to get to heaven that is why we need Christ. If we were capable of doing it on our own we would not need Christ would we? Repenting is not a one time deal, we should be continually repenting every time we screw up.

We are week by ourselves but thru Christ we are strong and all things are possible even kicking drug addiction or alcoholism. How do we draw on His strength?... By studding the scriptures and thru prayer.

There is no 'magic' in baptism. You won't come up out of the water a perfect being. Again, it is symbolism. It is a public confession of our faith and of our desire to follow Christ. Baptism is a very spiritually moving experience. Some believe that you must be baptised in order to be saved. I think baptism is a good idea because like I said it is a way to publicly confess our faith but from what I understand about God I know that he is a loving God and I can not believe that He would not allow a baby who dies before he can be baptised for instance to enter heaven because he was not baptised. As the Bible says we are saved by Gods grace not by our own actions.

If you would like to accept Christ as your savior just pray a simple prayer such as:

Heavenly Farther I confess that I am a sinner.
I believe that you sent your son Jesus Christ to suffer and die on the cross in atonement for my sins.
I accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior.
Amen.

BamBams · « **Reply #25 on:** February 06, 2005, 01:23:17 AM »

Quote from: Brett

Wow, now that is freaky our post seem to have gotten jumbled together when I was trying to do an edit.

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Anything that we do think or say that is contrary to God's will is sin.

It must seem like I've got a thousand nitpicky questions, but they're all important to me. Obscure terminology definitely throws me into confusion! For example: How would I know what God's "will" is, so I know not to do anything against it? I know you're going to tell me it's all in the bible right? Well, being honest again here, I KNOW that I can't even keep the 10 commandments on any kind of a regular basis.

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Adam brought sin into the world when he disobeyed God and ate the fruit from the tree of life (also called the tree of knowledge) in the garden of Eden.

Ironically, I understand that part, but the bible I have here says there were two trees. The "Knowledge of Good & Evil" tree, and the "Tree of Life?" It says that the "Life" tree had a guard posted at it so they couldn't eat the fruit off it. Am I reading this wrong? I am using the New International Version right now.

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You receive Gods forgiveness thru faith. Christ did die for all of us and his forgiveness is a gift. We must choose to accept or reject that gift. I guess you could say that it is sort of a mental agreement. Would you say that your parents love you or you love your family? How do you know? Can you see love? You can see acts of love, things we do because of love but you can not actually see love. It's a feeling within our souls.

Hmmmmmm......well I know my parents loved me because they took care of me, and nobody would put up with me if they didn't love me. *smiles* I guess I'm not someone who goes by feelings too much. I've always been a "facts" sort of guy. For example, I've "felt" like people didn't like me at times, but then I found out (fact) they really did. People describe me as an "emotionless" kind of guy until someone ticks me off.

But with God, it seems to me like you're either "in" or "out" period. He's obviously planning to send an awful lot of people to hell. From what I've been reading in the New Testament, as I compare the parables about heaven, etc. The 10 virgins, etc. Seems to me that only about 25 percent of the people actually make it to heaven. On the other hand, I know plenty of folks who claim to be Christians and would agree with everything you're saying. In the case of the virgins, the groom was looking for one's that had "oil" left in their lamps. And then there are all those folks in the book of Matthew who did all kinds of great stuff for God, and explained it to him on the "Judgement Day" and Jesus said to them "Depart from me, I never knew you." I find this quite frightening. I guess I'm looking for a sure thing or something? To know that my labors are not in vain.

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To repent means to confess that you have done wrong in the eyes of God and to commit yourself to not repeat that sin again. We are all condemned until we accept Christ and repent. When we earnestly repent God wipes the slate clean so to speak and no longer holds that sin against us.

Okay, so if I repent, my slate gets wiped clean, and I commit to not do that sin again, but what if I find that I couldn't keep my commitment? This puts me right back to where I started - trying to be perfect with no hope in sight. It seems like a never ending, frustrating, perfectionist syndrome. I've kind of been down that road before, and frankly, it made me quite miserable, and "feeling" guilty, 24 hours a day. Is this what normal Christians go through? I mean no disrespect here, but I'm not finding this prospect very appealing at all - some gift!

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God knows we are not perfect and does not expect us to not slip back into sin from time to time. However he does ask us to strive toward perfection.

Well I guess you answered my last question.

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No one can ever become good enough to get to heaven that is why we need Christ. If we were capable of doing it on our own we would not need Christ would we? Repenting is not a one time deal, we should be continually repenting every time we screw up.

Okay, and I'm honestly not being sarcastic here, but if God knows we can't be perfect, then obviously (since he knows everything) we must not be ABLE to be perfect. If it's impossible to be perfect, then what is the point of trying to do the impossible? Seems like a huge setup for becoming the most miserable person on earth by striving to attain something that is utterly unattainable. Is this what God wants? For people to be miserable all day by looking at their own shortcomings? Frankly, I'd rather be focused on trying to achieve something meaningful, than constantly concerned about every little thing I'm doing wrong. I don't want to live on a constant guilt trip. IF that's what this is all about, it's definitely not for me.

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We are week by ourselves but thru Christ we are strong and all things are possible even kicking drug addiction or alcoholism. How do we draw on His strength?... By studding the scriptures and thru prayer.

So if I found a way to draw on Christ's strength, I could stop any and all sinning? Now I'm confused again. I'll just ask outright, "Is it, or isn't it, possible to become totally sinless?" Is there an acceptable "level" of sin?

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There is no 'magic' in baptism. You won't come up out of the water a perfect being. Again, it is symbolism. It is a public confession of our faith and of our desire to follow Christ.

Well there goes that idea.

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As the Bible says we are saved by Gods grace not by our own actions.

But this seems to disagree completely with the idea of trying to stop doing everything wrong. If nothing "I" do can make me good enough for getting into heaven, then what is the point of striving to live a "perfect" life? I am sure I'm not understanding you now. On the one hand, I'm understanding that God expects me to focus on not sinning, and on the other hand, I'm understanding that God is telling me that there is nothing I can do to get myself into Heaven. I see a conflict of ideas here. I know, I'm being a pain - what can I say?

Brett · « **Reply #26 on:** February 06, 2005, 02:19:26 AM »

BamBams, your not being a pain at all. I need to get ready for church now but when I get back this afternoon I will try to have some answers for you. :grin:

Brett · « **Reply #27 on:** February 06, 2005, 11:59:31 AM »

Hi BamBams, I'm back, for a while. Let me see if I can answer at least some of your questions without muddying the waters further.

confused? Your in good company. None of us has all the answers. God tells us in isaiah 55:8,9 -

8 Â“My thoughts are completely different from yours,Â” says the LORD. Â“And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine. 9For just as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts higher than your thoughts.

Where can we get help then? How about from the source... James 1:5

5 If you need wisdomÂ—if you want to know what God wants you to doÂ—ask him, and he will gladly tell you. He will not resent your asking. 6 But when you ask him, be sure that you really expect him to answer, for a doubtful mind is as unsettled as a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind.

Pray that the Holy spirit would guide you and give you understanding when you read the scriptures. Ask questions of people who you believe are living in Gods will. There are many good study guides and books (but be sure that they are based on the scriptures). Fellowship with other Christians especially in church or home bible studies.

Yep, the 10 Commandments pretty much sums up the will of God. But he knows that his laws are impossible for us to keep at all times that is why He sent Jesus. If when when we do stumble we turn back to him and ask for his forgiveness he promises to give it. Remember Christ's parable of the Lost Son in Luke. As long as you are willing to turn back to Him God will not turn you away- ever.

God does not wish to see anyone go to Hell. It states somewhere in the Bible that He weeps for these lost people. God does not send people to Hell we purchase our own tickets. God gave us free will to receive Him or reject Him. When I have more time I can get into that and why we are here, etc. if you would like.

To answer why bother trying to please God I will have to get into more detail of why we are here than I have time for know. For now Lets just say we should keep trying because it pleases God and we should want to please God because He made us, He loves us so much that He sent his son to die for us, and because He is willing to forgive us every time we screw up.

BamBams I would like to continue with our discussion if you are interested. One thing I would like to suggest to you is that you get a copy of The Purpose Driven Life by Rick Warren and that we go threw it together as a one on one Bible study. I'm not sure if it's appropriate to continue our Bible study here on this forum. Maybe we should take it to private e-mail. How do you feel about it?

I have to go now but I will leave you with this thought. God hates the sin not the sinner. He is like a parent who though disappointed when his children disobey him still loves them.

Brett

powderman · « **Reply #28 on:** February 06, 2005, 12:34:14 PM »

BRETT. Excellent post Sir. Thank you. For my part, continue the discussion right here. POWDERMAN.

williamlayton · « **Reply #29 on:** February 06, 2005, 02:05:32 PM »

Bams-
Hang in there and ask questions, The Lord knows your heart is searching, and he will bear witness to you.
May I interject a thought. Not trying to butt in on such an important discussion.
It is hard to realize that you can do nothing but agree with the Lord when he reveals to your heart that Christ Jesus is who he said he was, Messiah and God.
In this world where everything is earned it is hard to just accept the free gift given at the cross of calvary. But the moment you agree with God you are saved from your sins and things will become more and more clear.
I am praying for you.
Blessings