Author Topic: Iraqi villagers kill 5 insurgents (Read 2197 times)

Dubious Dan · « **on:** February 04, 2005, 09:41:50 AM »

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200502/s1295847.htm

From ABC NEWS
"Iraqi villagers kill 5 insurgents

By Middle East correspondent Mark Willacy

The residents of a small Iraqi village have killed five insurgents who had attacked them for voting in last weekend's national elections.

Several other insurgents were also wounded.

The insurgents raided the village of al-Mudhiryah south of Baghdad after warning its inhabitants not to vote in the election.

The villagers fought back, killing five of the insurgents and wounding eight others.

The insurgents' cars were then set alight.

Al-Mudhiryah's tribal sheikh says his people are sick of being threatened by Islamic extremists."

BamBams · « **Reply #1 on:** February 04, 2005, 10:03:20 AM »

Ah! But so many think that Iraq doesn't want elections, or democracy. That they simply don't appreciate freedom......etc etc.

Leftoverdj · « **Reply #2 on:** February 04, 2005, 10:17:10 AM »

I seen a very similar article in '64 or '65 when a fortified hamlet in Nam beat off a VC attack. Didn't turn out to mean nothing. Lotta hoopla at the time, though. Article was in Life or Look if anyone is interested.

Leverdude · « **Reply #3 on:** February 04, 2005, 11:56:12 AM »

Now if they will do this in large numbers, en masse so to speak that would say something about them. IMO It is after all theyre revolution.

Shorty · « **Reply #4 on:** February 04, 2005, 03:14:06 PM »

leftoverdj,
Comparisons between Iraq and Viet Nam are invalid for so many historical reasons that it's silly to even get into. Dean and Kerry tried that ploy. It didn't work.

powderman · « **Reply #5 on:** February 04, 2005, 03:38:31 PM »

The iraqi people know who these Godless scum are. I hope they drag each and every one of them out of their holes and execute them. POWDERMAN. :? :? :? :? :? :?

BamBams · « **Reply #6 on:** February 04, 2005, 03:42:19 PM »

I'd consider 60% of the population risking their lives to vote as being "en masse" but that's just me

Leftoverdj · « **Reply #7 on:** February 04, 2005, 05:33:46 PM »

Quote from: Shorty

leftoverdj,
Comparisons between Iraq and Viet Nam are invalid for so many historical reasons that it's silly to even get into.

Elucidate, please?

Mikey · « **Reply #8 on:** February 05, 2005, 04:10:18 AM »

BamBams, Shorty - you're right, this time it means something - something the insurgents had not considered - that the Iraqi people want the freedom to live their own lives and don't want to be governed by religious fanatics or power-hungry zealots. They have had enough of that.

What we have in Iraq is an insurgency, plain and simple. You have one group of religious fundamentalist terrorists trying to impose the rule of Islamic law on an entire country in which over 60% of the people suffered under the same and the hands of a tyrant, celebrated his defeat and then turned out 'en masse' at the polls to vote in a government that will allow them their freedoms. That 60% of the population are the brave ones. The cowards are the ones who hoped for an election day defeat of the concept of democracy and continued their attacks during the voting process. They killed 44 people who came out to vote. Is there any reason why those villagers shouldn't have done what they did - none at all.

Vietnam - that wasn't either a civil war or insurgency by any means. That was an outright infiltration (VC) and later an NVA invasion by the communists from the north. Only the media fell prey to the concept of that being a civil war because both groups involved were Vietnamese. But that would be the same as saying that North Korea can invade South Korea because they are both Korean and reuniting both Korean countries together would be appropriate. That's BS. Both the North and South Koreas and the North and South Vietnams were independent nations without the right to invade anybody, much less their own brethren. Vietnam was an invasion by the comunists. In Iraq, it is a religious insurgency that hopes to once again establish an Islamic state and control. But, all this is just my opinion, soooo. Mikey.

Leftoverdj · « **Reply #9 on:** February 05, 2005, 12:14:51 PM »

Sorry to differ, but you failed to address any alleged differences between iraq and Viet Nam. Viet Nam was one country, as you may see by consulting the 1954 Geneva Accords. The VC was a resistance group composed of residents of the southern part of the country who opposed the imposition of partition and a puppet government on them.

If anything, Nam was a far simpler situation than Iraq is.

We have strayed afield. I'll start another thread on the similarities of the two wars.

ironglow · « **Reply #10 on:** February 11, 2005, 12:53:24 PM »

Iraq...Viet Nam...Viet Nam...Iraq...

Let's compare apples and oranges or sardines and bluebirds...Yawn...

There are SOME similarities between the French and Indian War and Viet Nam..but we didn't use the same weapons, tactics and overall strategy...such comparisons are a bold effort at making a moot point !

The Iraqi villagers taking apart those "insurgents" (a misnomer) is about par for what the returning troops are telling me about Iraq..
AND THEY SHOULD KNOW...

Lefty: Your argument about the VC being simply local residents that didn't like a govt imposed upon them, destroys your own argument about similarities.

The troops I have conversed with that have returned from combat there, tell me that the " insurgents " they captured were almost all FOREIGN terrorists...from Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia ...even Kuwait and Jordan..
In fact, I believe $25 million Zharkaoui (sp) is Jordanian...

Insurgent is a misnomer; these people are more appropriately called " Foreign terrorists"...by your own statements...not like Viet Nam...

Leverdude · « **Reply #11 on:** February 11, 2005, 01:19:21 PM »

Quote from: BamBams

I'd consider 60% of the population risking their lives to vote as being "en masse" but that's just me

Yeah, theyre real brave while our soldiers are there to protect them.

I'd consider 60% of the population picking up guns & cleaning their own mess as being almost "en masse"

xnmr53 · « **Reply #12 on:** February 11, 2005, 02:55:30 PM »

Leverdude,

Do you know what percentage of OUR population took an active part in the American Revolution?

About 15%.

Leftoverdj · « **Reply #13 on:** February 11, 2005, 02:56:05 PM »

Quote from: ironglow

The troops I have conversed with that have returned from combat there, tell me that the " insurgents " they captured were almost all FOREIGN terrorists...from Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia ...even Kuwait and Jordan..
In fact, I believe $25 million Zharkaoui (sp) is Jordanian...

Insurgent is a misnomer; these people are more appropriately called " Foreign terrorists"...by your own statements...not like Viet Nam...

Sorry, Ironglow. You are simply wrong. USA Today did a check on the US detainees in Iraq and found that 98% were Iraqi. An hour spent surfing with the help of google turned up several interviews with intelligence officers that also placed the number of Iraqis at over 90% of the insurgents. Even Allawi did not have the gall to claim that more than 30% of those fighting his government were foreigners and no informed source took him seriously.

Your troops have been watching too much FOX News. Not one in 500 speaks any of the local languages and certainly not well enough to tell a native of one country from another.

You may check this if you like by doing a news search -- foreign fighters Iraq. You will find some wild claims by politicians, but the intelligence professionals are in remarkable agreement that no more than 10% of those fighting the US forces are non Iraqis.

BamBams · « **Reply #14 on:** February 11, 2005, 03:36:12 PM »

Well, I decided to check up on your information as you suggested. I'm actually finding the information to be more confusing than anything else.

But, I did find one website that agrees with you almost 100% regarding everything you've been saying about our presence in Iraq. I don't agree with all of it, but I thought I'd share it with you figuring you may find it an enjoyable and interesting read.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/39E36A9C-48E1-483B-966F-AFD35D9A590E.htm

Leverdude · « **Reply #15 on:** February 11, 2005, 03:45:11 PM »

Quote from: xnmr53

Leverdude,

Do you know what percentage of OUR population took an active part in the American Revolution?

About 15%.

You may be right, I'v no idea. & dont see the relevance anyway.
We won, with some help to be sure but the movement itself was started by us & we represented the overwhelming majority of the men fighting.
We set up our own Gov't the way we wanted, theres no question who won the war or why it was faught.

We fought for what we believe in, we're asking Iraq to fight against what they believe in. They already know the politicians are going to be puppets of the clerics & religious leaders. They want to die fighting for allah & we're sure giving them alot of oportunities for that.

There are blind people on both sides of this issue & IMO the biggest reason is we dont comprehend what motivates the people of that region. They dont fight for Iraq, they fight against the west.
When we were only in Afganistan they flocked there to kill the infidels, we took Iraq & so they now flock there as well. Before both they were vehemently against our military presence in Saudi arabia. They swear to rid the mideast of Isreal & blame its existance on us. IMO we have our nose so far in their buisness that we make ourselves a perfect target for every islamic loony out there.

I see posts from others who I have great respect for that say their ambition is the spread of islam thru violence & whatever other means at their disposal & in the next thread they say the same people want our help & want democracy & peace. It cant be both ways & while I'm sure some over there want peace they need to fight as hard if not harder than their brothers who want to destroy any chance they might have.

Realize as well that the longer we stay there the longer our military actions continue the more people we're likely to turn against us.
We all see the devastation we deliver when we bomb a terrorist stronghold or what have you. Can anyone honestly say peaceful Iraqis arent getting killed? How do you think their families feel about us after we blow up someones father, or brother, son or mother? I dont suppose that would instill hatred of us.

Nope, we fixed their problem as best we could & now we are done there.
as I'v said before we need not abandon them. If they continue to fight for peace, if they continue to fight terrorism, if they choose to enter the global community in a usefull progressive way we should support them if the need arises but the fight is theirs.

We entered Iraq to rid it & the world of Saddam Husein, no more no less. Would have been better if we were clear on that from the start instead of looking for justification in WMD & other BS but thats politics.

He blew us & the world off by ignoring resolution after resolution & the US had the gonads to do what needed doing. Now we need to use them gonads again to tell them their on their own & the rest of the world if they dont like it can suck an egg.

BamBams · « **Reply #16 on:** February 11, 2005, 03:51:21 PM »

Quote from: Leftoverdj

Sorry to differ, but you failed to address any alleged differences between iraq and Viet Nam. Viet Nam was one country, as you may see by consulting the 1954 Geneva Accords. The VC was a resistance group composed of residents of the southern part of the country who opposed the imposition of partition and a puppet government on them.

If anything, Nam was a far simpler situation than Iraq is.

We have strayed afield. I'll start another thread on the similarities of the two wars.

This website is currently running a world-wide poll on:

"Is it accurate to compare the US position in Iraq with Vietnam?"

The poll is on the right hand side of webpage - toward the bottom. Hurry and get in your vote!

http://english.aljazeera.net/HomePage

BamBams · « **Reply #17 on:** February 11, 2005, 04:01:19 PM »

leverdude, this is nothing personal, but you seem to be talking as if we have something to be afraid of with regard to these people? I'm sitting here hoping we EXPAND our presence there by moving into Iran next - and wherever the heck else we need to go to put a stop to global terrorism. We DO have the money, we DO have the power, and by God, it's all a waste if we don't use it to make the world a better place. You may be looking at every life lost right now, but I'm looking at a more peaceful world in the future. Freedom costs blood. Always has, and always will. Today's sacrafices are not in vain at all. Tomorrow will show your grandchildren that.

powderman · « **Reply #18 on:** February 11, 2005, 04:29:14 PM »

BAMBAMS. Agreed Sir. I truly believe that if we don't fight those Godless, subhuman,scum over there, we most assuredly will fight them here. POWDFERMAN. :x :x :x :x :x :x

Leverdude · « **Reply #19 on:** February 11, 2005, 04:33:27 PM »

Bambams,

No ofense taken, its just a discussion. :-)

I dont think we have anything to fear from them & thats a big reason why we should let them be. Realistically not one muslim nation is a threat to our security.
If they threaten us we should react acordingly other than that we're suppressing them. If the people over there custumarily kill each other its not our buisness.
Freedom does cost blood & IMO we've paid our dues.
If Iran needs a whoping then we should deal with them, same with Syria or N. Korea or whatever but once the fights over bring the boys home.

If its not an issue of national security then why stay there?

I do disagree that we have the money but thats a different issue.

BamBams · « **Reply #20 on:** February 11, 2005, 04:41:06 PM »

Leverdude,

I do understand what you are saying, but I wonder if you are overlooking something else.

Our problem is not with the Iraq people persay. It never has been. It's that Iraq was a haven for bad guys. We are upsetting that haven in a huge way. These terrorist need a PLACE to live, plot, plan, and store all their weapons. Iraq was one of those places. Very soon, it won't be any more. One of the things that made Saddam so popular with the terrorists was his hatred of the United States. It kind of like doing a raid on a crack house if you will. What's the point of busting everybody and just leaving if there is a good chance that it's just going to return to what it was. So what to do next? Simple, you start cleaning up that whole neighborhood.

Bush has killed two birds with one stone on this one. Saddam was finally removed, and now that country is under a very watchful eye. The bad guys are being routed out. Sure it's chaotic, but that's the nature of this beast. This isn't like Star Trek were we can just shoot a big laser beam on them here and there. It also isn't like McDonald's where you can your order in 10 minutes. This is gonna take years. These people only knew ONE WAY. Now they know two ways. Tyranny and freedom.

Afganistan = samo samo

Remember, those puny whimps bombed us FIRST! They killed our women and children. What did GB say right after that? Any friend of them, is an enemy of ours. Or words to that effect. That's where his head is at. Saddam was a friend of them. We're not done yet.....we're not even close to done.

Leverdude · « **Reply #21 on:** February 11, 2005, 04:45:07 PM »

Quote from: powderman

BAMBAMS. Agreed Sir. I truly believe that if we don't fight those Godless, subhuman,scum over there, we most assuredly will fight them here. POWDFERMAN. :x :x :x :x :x :x

I'm not against fighting the terrorists at all. Hunt them down like dogs as they deserve no more. What I'm against is wasting lives, time & money trying to build a US friendly Gov't in Iraq. Its just not going to happen.
If these guys are coming from Syria then we should go there, if they come from Iran target them there.
But are we going to fund reconstruction there as well? Are we going to build democracy thruout the Godless subhuman world?

They will never be able to threaten us here beyond the terrorism they use so well & theres not much more than what we are doing now that can be done to stop that.
They have no Navy, Army, airforce nothing but alot of ignorant people willing to die for what they believe.
They can blow up buildings & busses but they cant invade a country. Dont even seem to want to.

All we really disagree on is the occupation thing. :wink:

BamBams · « **Reply #22 on:** February 11, 2005, 04:56:05 PM »

Leverdude....just how do you KNOW a US friendly Iraq cannot emerge? There is no way you could possible KNOW that. Whoever thought we'd have the allies that we DO have today?

We knocked the British right on their behinds. Now look? They are one of our best friends. How did we win that friendship? Simple, we stood with them when they needed us. They KNEW we weren't about hate. After that, we have remained there for 50 years in the EXACT SAME capacity we are in Iraq. You think we didn't stay there and continue the hunt for loose Nazis with them?

You think taking out the World Trade Center was nothing worth losing sleep over? Wow! I'm stunned by that. Have you ever been there? My very own neice worked on the 52nd floor of Tower #2. They attacked MY family! If she hadn't been at a meeting that morning.....she'd be dead.

You think they haven't invaded us? You're wrong. Where did those terrorist pilots come from? How many others are living here right now? What is the next attack going to be? There are many people right here under our nose who sympathize with their cause. Heck, some of our educators in college do!

Having a boat load of Americans, and other coalition forces, currently in Iraq and Afganistan is a very good thing. We are screwing up a lot of schemes of theirs, and arresting an awful lot of wanna be terrorists. In addition to that, we are giving these people back their right to rule themselves instead of being gassed or executed everytime they say something against their tyrant leaders. If a person cannot see the good in what we are doing there.......I just don't know what else to tell them.
If you're worried about money, then you'll always have a reason to complain. A way out. It ain't about the money!

Leverdude · « **Reply #23 on:** February 11, 2005, 05:03:24 PM »

Quote from: BamBams

Leverdude,

Remember, these puny whimps bombed us FIRST! They killed our women and children. What did GB say right after that? Any friend of them, is an enemy of ours. Or words to that effect. That's where his head is at. Saddam was a friend of them. We're not done yet.....we're not even close to done.

I remember well Sept 11.

I usta be able to see the Twin towers from the beach here. Never gave them much thought till they were gone.

You are also right that we were struck first but no one is helping rebuild what we lost but us.

It is without a doubt a regional problem we are dealing with & if Iraq is to be the base of operations in the war on terror then so be it, tho I think we could find a more acomodating place to operate from.
I see the war on terror & the war in Iraq as two related but different conflicts.
I need to look into Saddams ties to terrorism as I am of the opinion that he was much too paranoid to encourage islamic radicals. A radical Mullah with an army of terrorists would have been seen as a threat to his authority & I dont think he tolerated such things. I may well be wrong.

All this is making my head hurt. I'm goin to bed.

BamBams · « **Reply #24 on:** February 11, 2005, 05:10:12 PM »

Good night leverdude.......sleep well.

Leverdude · « **Reply #25 on:** February 11, 2005, 05:28:18 PM »

Who came from Iraq to fly planes into those towers?

Does that constitute an invasion? I supose it does but not on a military scale. Some of those guys were here for quite awhile.

I'm not making light of what was done to us. I live less than 50 miles from the WTC & watched them burn till they dissapeared.

Our European relationships are far removed from whats now occuring.
We share cultural, religous & many other things in common.

We arent fighting a war on a nation but on terrorists & I'm all for that. Take the hundred thousand or so troops in Iraq & march thru Syria & Iran & anywhere else the enemy can be found, I'm all for that.

Wheres the next attack on us going to come from? That I cant say but can you say that IF Iraq becomes a viable democracy it wont come? (It didnt come from there anyway)

I do give this stuff quite a bit of thought before posting or talking about it. Might not come across the way I want sometimes & if you think I'm saying we should forget what was done to us then this is one of those times.

I say democracy in Iraq wont work because if it would work it would already be there. A society has to evolve to accept that democracy is the best way, not have it rammed down their throat. We gave them democracy the same way Saddam gave them a dictatorship. By force.
I pray they know what to do with it.

Leverdude · « **Reply #26 on:** February 11, 2005, 05:31:07 PM »

Quote from: BamBams

Good night leverdude.......sleep well.

I thank you Sir & wish you the same. :-)

xnmr53 · « **Reply #27 on:** February 12, 2005, 08:42:15 AM »

Quote from: Leverdude

Quote from: xnmr53
Leverdude,

Do you know what percentage of OUR population took an active part in the American Revolution?

About 15%.

You may be right, I'v no idea. & dont see the relevance anyway.

The point is that you are being a bit unrealistic when you state that 60% must take up arms before you consider it a serious effort on their part.

FWiedner · « **Reply #28 on:** February 12, 2005, 09:42:39 AM »

Quote from: BamBams

Remember, those puny whimps bombed us FIRST!

No, they didnÂ’t. Iraq didnÂ’t have anything to do with bombing the U.S. In fact, we attacked them first when we invaded Iraq during the first gulf war. U.S. forces have occupied portions of Iraq since 1991.

Quote from: BamBams

You think taking out the World Trade Center was nothing worth losing sleep over?

The attacks on the WTC were a horrific event, but it has been proven and documented by the U.S. State Department that neither Saddam Hussein nor Iraq had anything to do with the attacks on the WTC.

Quote from: BamBams

Where did those terrorist pilots come from?

Saudi Arabia.

We donÂ’t seem to have dropped even a single bomb there.

Leverdude · « **Reply #29 on:** February 12, 2005, 10:57:34 AM »

Quote from: xnmr53

Leverdude,

The point is that you are being a bit unrealistic when you state that 60% must take up arms before you consider it a serious effort on their part.

Thats your point not mine. My point is that killing 5 doesnt impress me much. Must be a rare thing for them to actually kill bad guys in general if 5 is so impressive.

I used that figure because Bambams used it in regards to percent of Iraqis voting. I seriously doubt the acuracy of that figure anyway in large part because I doubt there has been an acurate census in Iraq in awhile if ever.

What percent of their own people should take part?

What percent did take part or are taking part now? (after we won it for them)