Similarities of Iraq and Viet Nam

[Leftoverdj]

First, let me make it clear that I am speaking of events in wake of removal of Saddam from power. The invasion, the deposal, and search for WMD are defensible. The continued occupation is not. The following similarities are applicable solely to the ongoing occupation.

1. Nobody knows what we were doing in or expected to get out of either.
2. Both had a large religious component. In Nam, because of support for the Catholic Diem, in Iraq because of anti-Moslem bigotry.
3. Chaos arose in both in the wake of the removal of the former regime.
4. Both conflicts were primarily domestic with powerful outside forces meddling.
5. Both conflicts stemmed from opposition to a foreign imposed puppet government.
6. Both conflicts were ruinously expensive with no possible benefit sufficient to compensate.
7. In neither conflict did US forces speak the language nor understand the local culture.
8. In neither conflict were friend and foe readily differentiated.
9. In both conflicts the US forces engaged in behavior certain to alienate neutrals and even nominal allies.
10. Both conflicts deeply divided the American people.

This list is subject to ongoing and considerable addition.

[Shorty]

leftoverdj,
Man. I'm not really qualified to respond, but I'll try;
1. In Nam, we were defending a quasi-democratic government against a Communist invader.  In Iraq, we have deposed a tyrannical murderer.
2. In Nam, Christians were a small minority.  In Iraq, they're ALL Moslems.
3. In Nam, chaos ensued because the polulace couldn't see much difference between competing ploitics.  In Iraq, they know damn well what the stakes are.
4. Domestic, yes, but you have to decide which "powerful outside forces" are for good or evil (Communism/ Islamofacism)
5. Viet Nam, you're right.  Iraq, We don't do that anymore.
6. Tell that to black Americans who benefitted from our Civil War.
7. Wrong, on both accounts
8. Nam, you're right.  Iraq, we know damn well who they are.
9. Name any war where that does not happen.
10. Only those nay-sayers who don't believe in the dignity of man are against any and all wars.  Fortunately for them, many "chumps" have died so that they can think (feel) that way.

[Leftoverdj]

1. In Nam, we were defending a quasi-democratic government against a Communist invader.  In Iraq, we have deposed a tyrannical murderer.

Only invaders involved in Nam were the US and the those we brought in with us. Might have been a handful of Russian and advisers with the Communists but no significant numbers. Both the VC and the NVA were Vietnamese.

2. In Nam, Christians were a small minority.  In Iraq, they're ALL Moslems.

Nothing to do with my point and factually erroneous. There is a small Coptic minority in Iraq. Had Iraq a large Christian population, matters would have been handled much differently.

3. In Nam, chaos ensued because the polulace couldn't see much difference between competing ploitics.  In Iraq, they know damn well what the stakes are.

In Iraq, there are at least three conflicting factions, none of whom have any fondness for the others nor for the US. At the very most, one faction will tolerate US support long enough to consolidate power. Looks at the moment that we are handing Iraq over to people who will align with Iran the moment they get the chance.

4. Domestic, yes, but you have to decide which "powerful outside forces" are for good or evil (Communism/ Islamofacism)

I don't have to decide nothing. Long as folks don't mess with us, they should be free to ruin their own country to suit their tastes.
5. Viet Nam, you're right.  Iraq, We don't do that anymore.

Allawi ain't a puppet and the recent "election" wasn't rigged six ways from Sunday?

6. Tell that to black Americans who benefitted from our Civil War.

Private matter. No outside forces involved.

7. Wrong, on both accounts

7. In neither conflict did US forces speak the language nor understand the local culture.

Seems indisputable to me. Might be one in five hundred who does.

8. Nam, you're right.  Iraq, we know damn well who they are.

Oh?  All the accounts I have seen saw that those fighting us blend right in with the rest of the population. General Taguba even said that a large number of those imprisoned should not be. Can't tell them apart and not making much of an effort to try.

9. Name any war where that does not happen.

Grenada, Panama, Desert Storm, Barbary Wars, WWI, WWII(for the most part). Any of 50 others where we did what we had to do without trying to occupy someone else's country.

10. Only those nay-sayers who don't believe in the dignity of man are against any and all wars.  Fortunately for them, many "chumps" have died so that they can think (feel) that way.

So who's against any and all wars? We are talking about two specific wars. Made my position clear. This war was probably justified. The continued occupation of another country ain't. Let them sort it out.

A sizeable portion of the country and the board agree with me on that.

[chuckles]

The biggest difference is that now, we're not hamstringing our military with the likes of LBJ and McNamara. Those two traitors should have been shot for their micro-management of a war we could have, and should have won in 90 days. We very carefully trained the North Vietnamese Army with the deaths of 58.000+ Americans, all fed piecemeal into battle instead of setting out to win right from the start. May they both rot in he!! for that.

[Mauser]

I've been thinking for awhile that there are several similarities between the two wars, but that in of itself does not mean that this war is not justified.  We would be dangerously shortsighted if we shrunk away from a just and necessary war just because it might be kinda like Vietnam.  Of course it is at least a little like Vietnam,  What would it be more similar to?  WWII?

Actually, I had serious reservations about the wisdom of going into Iraq in the first place and thought that the reasons given were not necessarily strong enough to cost thousands of American lives.  BUT, now that we are there we have to win and win convincingly so that the outcome bears no resemblence to Vietnam.

[magooch]

Mauser, it seems you and I have traversed the same path.

[FWiedner]

We very carefully trained the North Vietnamese Army with the deaths of 58.000+ Americans, all fed piecemeal into battle instead of setting out to win right from the start. May they both rot in he!! for that.

Yes, and we trained them so well, and made them believe in our system of democracy so fervently, that they are communist to this day.

What, exactly, did those 58,000 Americans die for?

I wonder what unecessary body count, lamenting this current "sacrifice", will be plastered on some as yet uncreated monument in Washington, D.C.?

Saddam needed to be deposed.  Iraq needed to be disarmed.  But it is my feeling that our government may have overstepped the possible when it was decided to try and change their government and politics.

When this little adventure is near it's close, all we will have done is to leave Iraq in the hands of a nuclear capable Iran.

[Shorty]

North Viet Nam had the full backing of the Soviet Union (they're still paying off the debt).  That's why we could not mine Haiphong harbor; we might blow up a Russian ship!  Iraq had no such sponsor.  Syria and Iran, maybe Jordan, are no Soviet Union.  :roll:

[NYH1]

My father says all the time that there similar. He was in Viet nam 3-'67 through 3-'68 with the 554th eng. batt., 20th eng. bri., 25th Infantry Division in the Tay Ninh area.

[Leftoverdj]

Win?

Win what?

By my lights, we already won and all we can do from here on out is lose.

The stated purposes of attacking Irag were to depose Saddam Hussein, assure the removal of any weapons of mass destruction, and remove Iraq as a threat to its neighbors. We had done all that about a year and a half ago.

Now we can stay in Iraq as long as we are willing to spend  a billion dollars and a dozen American lives a week for the privilege but what are we gonna get for that?

Only things I can see us getting out of Iraq are a massive bill and another long black wall with a lot of names carved on it.

[Leverdude]

Lefty's right, all we're doing now is political posturing with American lives. We want the world & especially those who were against all this to think we're super guys.
Its a problem this nation has, due in no small part to the bleeding hearts, here & abroad who feel no one is responsible for anything they do, its always someone elses fault. IMO its the Iraqi peoples fault Saddam happened to them, its the iraqi peoples fault this war happened & its the iraqi peoples responsability to clean it up.
WE felt threatened, we eliminated the percieved threat ( which I support fully) & now we're done. Let them build their own nation as they see fit acording to their customs or whatever. We'v no right to push our ways on them.  Once we leave it will become what they decide anyway. They'll kill the president or whatever they call it & life will go on.
 They dont even have a sense of nationality, just religious unification against the infidels (us). If we leave then they will resort to fighting between different sects or what have you. They dont, as a whole, want peace.
When they are ready for peace it will happen, when they are ready for democracy it'll happen.

We suffer as a nation when we enter into this nation building game & that should be unacceptable regardless of the perceived good we are doing.

[Mauser]

IMHO winning in Iraq means that the newly elected government is, with and because of American protection, stable, legitimate, and able to deal with insurgents in country and enemies outside.  In other words we have won when we can leave and everything doesn't fall apart.  That day may be years, thousands of American lives, and hundreds of billions of $ away.
 
If we walk and Iraq goes soon thereafter to a Sunni theocracy or the Bath'st party or something else unacceptable to us today we will have lost, and the post mortem analysis will judge this Vietnam II.  If we want to win, we stay.

THIS is why I doubted the wisdom of going into Iraq in the first place.  We are there now it is too late to cut and run.

[Leverdude]

I always thought once a fight was over it was over. Heck, if we'd a offered Saddam billions of dollars I bet he'd a cooperated & we coulda saved lives.
These insurgents likely see themselves as patriots fighiting an occupying force. Its their country.

As far as the billions we're burning up helping people who hate us, that cant last long without serious repercusions here where it will hurt us, you & me.

I'v no problem helping someone less fortunate than myself out as much as I can. I wont go bancrupt for them tho.

[ironglow]

Iraq is similar Viet Nam about as much as a Llama is similar to a  Clydesdale...

[old06]

Poor lefty sounds like he's been watching some Kerry reruns!!!!!!!!

[Leftoverdj]

Iraq is similar Viet Nam about as much as a Llama is similar to a  Clydesdale...

I listed ten points of similarity. You are invited to address them.

[Mac11700]

If all of this wasn't so sad...it would be funny....We were a day late and a dollar short when we went back this second time...the government knew it...and the rest of the worlds governments knew it...that's why we did get the support this time around...all of the WMD's were shipped out of the country days before the invasion...this was told and shown on CNN and the rest of the news shows ...and along with all the trucks they watched go across the border of Syria...probably went with tons of US greenbacks to pay for what's happening now...we've spent Billions of dollars and our soilders are still dying...for What?...to topple a dictator?...It could have beeen done much cheaper and not cost us 1 soilders life if that's what they wanted...but it isn't...those oil fields are the real reason we are there...they represent TRILLIONS of dollars...and oil is what makes the world go round.....these middle eastern nations have been at war with one another and themselves since the beggining of their nations...and no government we install and back will last...just look at what happened in IRAN with the Shaw...it's time for us to gracefully as we can withdraw our troops and get out of Dodge...


Mac

[mag41vance]

Not addressing any particular point, I'd have to say, What we are attempting to do (bringing democracy) is just about as difficult in an Islamic country as trying to replace their Religious beliefs with ours. The struggle among'st religious factions in that part of the middle east is much older than America, and if we believe what the Bible says about it we would know we're spinning our wheels. The only business a "Christian" nation has in those country's is to try to convert them according to the Great Commission of Christ.
  That is in fact what muslims world-wide are attempting. Convert Christians ? everyone to Islam. Or be Damned.
  When the muslims say it is Jihad, They are correct. The principles they fight for are spiritual. Are ours?
  What are the principles we are fighting for? Democracy, freedom, The American Constitution.
   While I agree we need to protect our allies, and ourselves from terror and WMD's. I'm not to sure me showing up in someones house at 2AM and tell them "I don't like the color of their Kitchen and it needs to be changed" is the correct way. To accomplish this, Spiritual change must take place.
 Hmmm sounds like what they are saying about "America, The Great Satan"
  Who is Governmental Babylon referred to in  End Times prophecy?

[ibfestus]

1. Nobody knows what we were doing in or expected to get out of either.
2. Both had a large religious component. In Nam, because of support for the Catholic Diem, in Iraq because of anti-Moslem bigotry.
3. Chaos arose in both in the wake of the removal of the former regime.
4. Both conflicts were primarily domestic with powerful outside forces meddling.
5. Both conflicts stemmed from opposition to a foreign imposed puppet government.
6. Both conflicts were ruinously expensive with no possible benefit sufficient to compensate.
7. In neither conflict did US forces speak the language nor understand the local culture.
8. In neither conflict were friend and foe readily differentiated.
9. In both conflicts the US forces engaged in behavior certain to alienate neutrals and even nominal allies.
10. Both conflicts deeply divided the American people.

1.  Speak for yourself.  I know we are in Iraq to: A. Depose Saddam and prevent him from becoming powerful enough to disrupt the free flow of oil at market prices and... B) To give the Iraqi people at least a fighting chance to live in a Democratic and peaceful nation.

2.  Religion in Vietnam was never a central issue with both Buddhists and Catholics being persecuted by the anti religious VC and NVA.  To say the U.S. invaded Iraq because we are anti-Muslim is a stupid supposition that ignores the facts.

3.  Chaos erupts any time a war is fought.   The reverse of chaos is tyranny.  What you are saying here is that we should bring back Saddam and let him kill a couple of million more Iraqis so the chaos would end.  Brilliant!

4.  Both conflicts were primarily domestic??  Didn't you just say that anti-Muslim bigotry on the part of the U.S. was the reason for the conflict??

5.  No.  The insurgents in Iraq have stated repeatedly they are fighting against democracy not just against the U.S.  That is why 90% of their attacks are against Iraqi targets.

6.  Ruinously expensive?  I guess I missed the part where the U.S. is in a depression and our nation in ruins.

7.  I do not remember a single war the U.S has been involved in the last 150 years where we shared the language and the culture of our enemy.  I guess we have been lied to and the Japanese won WWII after all.

8.  Friend and foe being differentiated is another concept that went out of favor in the 1860's when armies dressed in brilliant uniforms and stood out in the middle of a field in formation, firing at each other.

9.  In neither the Vietnam conflict nor in the Iraqi war has the U.S. armed forces engaged in 1/100th of the heinous, and inhuman atrocities the enemy engages in on a daily basis.  In Vietnam, Hue is a good example.  Calley and his men killed a total of 104 "innocents" while in Hue the NVA systematically rounded up every school teacher, doctor, lawyer, librarian and politician in the city and executed ALL of them (over 10,000 in total).

10.  It is not the conflict that divided this country.  It is the Left wing, radical, America hating, lying traitors, that bastardized the legitimate anti-war elements that was responsible.

I was solidly against the war in Iraq as it was pursued.  This was based on the writings of Master Sun Tzu in his treatise The Art of War.  I argued the presence of sanctuaries (Syria, Iran) and financing would enable the insurgency to remain viable in a term long enough for the traitors and America hating Left (aided by the media) to emerge from their snake holes.  At this time I am not yet convinced I was wrong.

[fe352v8]

Just like in Viet Nam we are winning in the tactical sense, but we lost in the strategic sense.  Yes we will win all the battles but lose the war.  Its has been 35 years since I was an 11 bang-bang and I still wonder what the point was.  I sincerely hope I am wrong, and that when my son, the jar head,  is in his fifties; he is not wondering what the point was.  I further hope that we do not end up with another monument with enough names on it that would have made for a nice small town.

jon

[Shorty]

I've know a few Viet Namese "boat people".  They risked their lives to escape the results of Americas' abandonment of Viet Nam.  The re-education camps and the economic deprivation.  After thirty years they ALL thank the US for TRYING to save them.  In Iraq, though you don't see much of it in the "news", many are also thanking the US for saving them.  

Is it all worth it?   Many (individuals) in France after sixty years still thank the US for saving them.  Was it worth it?  

In another thirty years, maybe we'll know if Iraq was worth it.

[ironglow]

Lefty;
  You said that you listed ten similarities between Iraq and Viet Nam...it does appear that some are disimilarities..but no matter here are some very cogent differences...

1) Ho Chi minh did not gas his own citizens en mass.

2) There is no record of H0 Chi Minh having or using WMD.

3) Viet Nam is basically either hilly jungle of wet lowlands, while Iraq is primarily desert.

4) Armor works well in Iraq..less well in VN. Same goes with air power.

5) In Iraq we kicked totalitarianism OUT while in VN we attenpted to keep it from coming IN.

6) In Iraq we control all the territory. while in VN our "courageous " politicians forced our courageous troops to relinquish territory they had won with blood and sweat...only to fight again for the same  acreage.

7) Our President and his administration have done their best to provide our troops with the best in arms, training and equipment....even providing an extra 89 million dollars over the objections of a couple senators from Massachusetts.

McNamara, under Kennedy & Johnson administration, caused some GIs to be killed with jammed weapons because he didn't want to put $2 more into each M16 for a chrome lining in the bore and chamber.

9) There is no draft at present, so the " cowardly crowd " is not now running riot in the streets.
    During the VN conflict, the anti-Americans and the draft-dodgers were allied...today the anti-Americans stand more or less alone.

10) Thusfar the public has not been brainwashed by a partisan media working for the enemy. the " big three" networks no longer have a monopoly.

11) Regardless of the liberal media, there is enough information coming forth by embedded reporters and new " fair and balanced " networks so the public knows that the vast majority of our troops are courageous and dedicated...and not " baby killers ".

12) Except for a few, led by the " hero of Chappaquidick ", our elected representatives do not seem ready to " cut & run ".

13) In VN our troops were " deserted and defunded " while in the field by a cowardly congress...no sign of this yet with Iraq.

14) We have much more effective technology now, and it can be better utilized in an open setting...there can be no Ho Chi Minh trail in Iraq.

15) This war is primarily being fought by professionals...it seems that most of the problems that arise ..desertions, misbehavior etc. are produced by a small minority of "semi professionals ".

16) We fought in VN to uphold the treaty obligations of S.E.A.T.O. ,
 
  We fight in Iraq to install democracy and protect ourselves.

     
    There are of course a myriad of other differences, but these few should suffice...
7)

[williamlayton]

The similarities are startling, not so much as a match as seen here but as a philosophical match involving the SNAFU in Viet Nam.
There is no direction we can take in this conflict that will result in our WILL being dominate over this culture. Whoever, here, has any thought of being able to change the will of this culture has need of oxygen.
We are a headstrong, think we can change anyone by force or force of will, I'm gonna show you nation.
Folks this will not change a thing and anyone who does not see the similarities between here and Viet Nam (philosophical as well as reality) just does not want too. If you do not want to that is ok, just admit it, say you want a war, say you think this brings glory, say you feel good about a war. you have a right to your feelings as well as I, just recognize what you are all about and stand up to that and Well, let everybody else feel his own way also.
Argue the facts not the feelings is all I am saying.

Some one said we could have won the war in Viet Nam in 90 days if not for LBJ and ol Mac. I would like a full thought on how you perceive this to have been accomplished.
Blessings
Blessings

[cam0063]

A very interesting topic and one where the debate will never cease. I will pass on a few thoughts of my own. Keeping in mind they are just my thoughts and views... I fully respect the views of others. Which is our right as citizens of free nations! Aren`t we lucky!!!!

I remember Gulf War 1, when the opportunity to sort the murderous reign in Iraq could have been dealt with then. However it didn`t eventuate, the UN stopped that... It didn`t surprise me too much. Where were the UN forces when 250 000 Somalians were murdered and died of starvation in the early 90s [death toll is approx 1 million now and still chaotic and climbing]. Where have the UN forces been during the ethnic cleansing in the Sudan? Where were the UN forces during the genocide that took place in Rawanda - 1 million plus dead? How long did it take to get action in the Bosnian/Serbian conflict? Several million lives worth of time!! All extreme situations that failed with letter writing, public statements, protests and stern verbal condemnation....

A war over oil? I seem to remember a reason the US was attacked in one war, was halting supply of scrap metal to the needy attacker! Is Oil the main reason for being there? Not for the Australian and British Governments and if they thought it was the US main reason for being there, we wouldn`t be there as a coalition in the 1st place! On the topic of Oil - who are some of the largest consumers of oil and who has been publicly looking to Iraq since the turmoil thruought Russia and its new neighbours disrupted their supply. Yes - Europe and what is a massive amount of this valuable commodity used for - heating! Keeping people alive! I seem to remember just recently the Oil for Food supply agreement with Iraq was discovered to be rorted by the UN organiser of this...

I can`t speak for all Americans, but find it very hard to believe that there was no understanding of Islamic  culture in your country. Funny thing is, I have many US friends and the majority seem to have a good basic understanding as many of us here do Down Under. I know very few people, if any, who dislike the Islamic people because they are Islamic! I do know many people who dislike extremists of any religeous back ground and I am one of these these people... I do not know anyone who enjoys the thought of war!

Did people honestly believe they would find nuclear and or biological weapons once Coalition forces arrived in Iraq??? The most valuable commodity of a terror regime and terrorist. The signs were very strong that the weapons were there. Richard Butler the Chief weapons inspector in Iraq [an Aussie] knew they existed and was shifted sideways by the UN as he wouldnot change his views or alter his stance publically and keep quiet. Why would any extremist person, peoples or Government leave such a valuable commodity behind? They wouldn`t!!! These weapons whether people belive they were there or not, would have been long gone by the time Bagdad sucumed!

Some terrible footage has been brought to light of US and British soldiers assaulting and abusing Iraqi prisoners and people. It appalled me to see this. However I was not totally surprised. It is the terrible dark side of conflict and not isolated to Iraq. Ask a German lady about life in Berlin when the Russians took control of their city in 1945! Rape, murder and theft on a massive scale, particularly rape!

It wasn`t just a US decision to invade Iraq, it was made by a Coalition of which we Aussies and the British are a part of! We here are not a "super power", but we knew something had to be done and our government made its decision! Did people honestly believe that the coalition could go in there and then just leave??? To those who view what happens outside of their back yard  as being other peoples business - Have the Extremists of Iraq kept their terror within their own borders? Have the extremist groups that have existed in Iraq supported the Islamic Extremist groups in other nations: ie Afganistan, Indonesia, Iraq, Syria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia etc ? Do these Etremists have support within your or my country? I have an old girlfriend, a good friend missing in the Twin Towers, never found. I had a great lady in my life who died 3 weeks later. She was devoted to assisting aid for the survivors of 911. I know full well the effects of Terror and that it has no boundary...

I am not having a dig about anyone, just being general - Have many of you guys talked with Iraqi people who escaped the terror they lived under during the Saddam years? Have many of you guys been to the Middle East? I have...  Have many of you guys read much about Syria, Lybia and Jordan in the news this past year? I guess not, they appear to be much quieter now.... The Middle East is watching intently and nervously on this new thing to their neighbour - it is called equality, freedom - Democracy! I imagine it scares the hell out of some of them!

Is there similarities between the Iraq War and the Vietnam War? There are similarities with this war and all the wars I know of. Is it the same? - No!

Will the efforts of the Coalition forces bring a halt to terrorism? No they won`t, it may help to bring change but it will not halt it! Generations of hatred and fighting amongst extremist groups and a hatred for what you and I take for granted every day will not disappear completely! Will the efforts of the Coalition forces make a difference to the Long Term future of Iraq - Life gives few guarantees, but I sure hope so, for all the good people who want a better life there and for all who have placed their life on the line to give these people a chance!

Enjoy your freedom - there are those who gave their life for us to have it and there are those who will destroy their life and the lives of others to take it from you!

[ironglow]

cam0063;
 
   Kudos to you...in IMHO you have a much clearer picture of the problem than many here do; but that is not surprising..

   Thank God for the Brits, Aussies and the other allies in the coalition.
Some silly people equate the yellowing out of France and Germany with some kind of " superior wisdom " on the part of " Old Europe ".
   
  They should rather equate it perhaps with something called " oil for food "!
   
   Sorry you " Europhiles ", having lived there for 2 & 1/2 years, I , in no way consider their culture superior as they and some quiche-eaters here do.
   I see them as a bit more depraved...but we're catching up !

  William;
  You seem to think we cannot change a culture or bring democracy to it !
 
   Does today's Japan resemble the pre WW2 Japan of the bushido and the warlords....or do they have MacDonald's, KFC and play baseball ?
 
   Does Germany look just like the Germany under the heel of Hitler or do they trade freely with Britain, the US and others...
   You will find Wendy's and A&W rootbeer stands there along with Kellogg's Rice Krispies on their grocery shelves...
    Perhaps you drive a Chrysler-Dodge...Mercedes...LOL

   To All;
   Going back and comparing Iraq to Viet Nam is a device used by the old, tired, "beatnik" crowd of leftovers from the " sickly sixties ". ( no pun intended, Lefty)
   
    There are some similarities but just as many, if not more, differences...let's not get caught up in that gang that is still spinning their wheels ....being stuck in the sixties !!

[williamlayton]

Ironglow-
I understand your thought process concerning Japan. I will say that you are correct to some degree. Lets chat about what we agree on and what we do not see the same.
We changed the Japanese culture to a Western economy, but they were headed there before the war, and westernized them but we had to run the government for 20 years in order to do this.
The basic culture was not changed by our occupation. The culture has evolved because of world views more than our intervention.
Cultures evolve over a period of time But not as quickly as two years. There is a long way to go and I suggest we cannot afford the challenge of long term occupation.
Germany was and Germany went back to being Germany as before the war--A European nation, with European thought and economics.
Blessings

[Leverdude]

William hit the nail on the head on why other nations, namely Germany & Japan found peace & democracy. Neither was as backwards (in our view) a society as what we see in the mideast.
I'm a little young to be spouting about Vietnam but it sure seems like Iraq is a closer aproxamation to Vietnam than Japan or Germany.
The way I see it we're wasting our time in Iraq. We went to oust Saddam & if we left after doing so I cant see how we left anything unfinished.

We arent the global police & acting as such isn't going to make others like us, especially if we're talking about a totally different culture.

If we, as some have said, are really there to secure oil then I think we oughtta clear the slate & tell the world thats where we are coming from.
Might as well just take the country over anyway if the only way they can have peace is thru us. Matter of fact if its true that most Iraqis in the street want democracy (not convinced of that myself yet) I'd hazard a guess they wouldnt resent a US takeover. They could still be Muslims & theyd have the right to vote & everything else WE hold sacred.
Personally I dont think that would fly but if they really wanted peace they would be begging us to Annex them.

[cam0063]

A statement which has been made quite obvious here in Australia is that the Coalition is not "Occupying" Iraq for the long term. The Australian, British and US Governments are already moving towards withdrawal, something you do not do over night and a process that your Government is working with us on. The elections have been a major step towards this, not to mention the internal administration change already undertaken within Iraqi government departments!

Being involved in Business thruought Asia and with a best friend married to a lovely Japanese lady, I can say without any doubt that the outcome of WWll and the Western Occupation had a dramatic affect on Japanese culture. Interesting also that the history of WWll and Japans involvement is not dealt with fully in Japanese education! I have met Japanese people that do not know their country attacked the US 1st, or of the extent of the destruction at Pearl Harbour, or of the 1000s of Australians murdered on the Sandakan death march or of the biological warfare and medical testing [murder] unit the Japanese operated in China! Read a book called Frozen Secrets, I think you will see one of the reasons Allied forces stayed in Japan for as long as they did. Has US and Allied involvement in Post WWll Japan had an affect on their culture? Visit, meet the people in their travels and judge for yourself. Tho the traditions are quite strong with the elderly, you will see the change. The biggest change came in the following generations. I found the answer quite obvious...

Following WWll, Germany returned to being a part of Europe, but not as the Gemany of old! They have tried very hard to erase the mentality and culture that created the infamous Nazi Germany and have been very successful... So much so that a group of German ladies said to me in reference to the movies Saving Private Ryan and Pearl Harbour, - why do you make these movies??? Having spent quite a bit of time around Munich, Regensburg and growing up with a wonderful German friend who emigrated here and became a member of our family. I have seen and heard of the cultural change their nation undertook! However to a very small degree, I have also witnessed a rise in the Nazi theology of the past...

Yes cultural change takes time. We are not in Iraq for the long term, but I do hope we are there for the people of Iraq for the long haul.... As we have witnessed in Afganistan, cultural change is slow, but it is happening and it sure as hell isn`t about destroying a cuture of a nation, but hopefully bringing about a change to the darker sides that have developed within it...

The war against democracy of the Western World has been ongiong for many years and it will continue. There will always be those who despise what you and I stand for and for what we take for granted every day! A large and very dangerous faction within the Middle East boils with a hatred the world cannot sit back and turn a blind eye too and no, it isn`t the majority of the people, it is a very strong and influential minority... How long does a minority stay a minority??? Can people sit back and say it will not affect me, I am several thousand miles away? Do people actually believe that? I seem to remember that scenario from the late 1930s and early 40s'.  Biological warfare in the region has already shown its ugly face and Nuclear capability is gaining strength. Do people believe that the hatred and terror that brews within the middle east will fizzle out if left to its own devices? How long do you wait before you step in? When it is too late? How many US citizens have lost their lives prior to a US soldier stepped foot in Iraq?  How many people from all countries lost their lives in that one single tragic event? It numbers in the Thousands!!!! How many innocent people have lost their lives within the middle east region? War was declared quite sometime ago and it wasn`t declared by you and I!!!!

[BamBams]

It would appear that the differences far outweigh any similarities.  You know what gets me?  All these people for pushing for an exit timetable.

Did we have an exit plan for Germany, England, Turkey, Greece, Phillipines, etc etc etc?  We are still in those places - even after some 50 years!  I never hear the liberals and dumocraps complaining about this!

[Leftoverdj]

Did we have an exit plan for Germany, England, Turkey, Greece, Phillipines, etc etc etc?  We are still in those places - even after some 50 years!  !

Which is an excellent reason to push for an exit plan.

I believe that we left the philippines some years back, at their invitation. Certainly, we gave up several major bases. I am not aware that we invaded England, Greece, or even Turkey to seize military bases. The events leading up to the Iraq invasion show clearly that the use of bases on Turkish soil is very much at the sufferance of Turks.

Freely negotiated leases from legitimate governments are a far different matter from a forcible seizure later "ratified" by a puppet government. I am doubtful that even an Iraqi puppet government will cede bases to the US.