Similarities of Iraq and Viet Nam

[BamBams]

Well, 60% of the entire population voted for that puppet government, so it can be stated as a FACT that they must want it.  If there was no enthusiasm for it, those people would have simply remained in the safety of their homes on election day which leads me to.  The liberal logic that I see prevailing in most of these arguments would suggest that as long as 1 Iraq citizen or Muslim felt we didn't belong there, then we don't belong there.  Liberal deceit never ends does it?

We are now allied with Iraq, which is not a forced occupation.  What we are helping them accomplish there has the majority support of that country. If it were otherwise, that is all we'd be hearing about.  Those people were assisting us ALL THE WAY in the liberation from Saddam. They fought with us side by side, and plenty of them have died for this.  To suggest that we are taking over their country by force is an insult to those Iraq citizens who fought with us to help them become a free country.

We gave our full support to the new leaders that the majority of Iraq citizens wanted to see elected.  Naturally they won.  In my life, I am surrounded by guys who have just returned from Iraq - I live near the 10th Mountain Division base.  What I am consistently hearing is that the overwhelming majority of Iraqs want us there and are truly appreciative of our efforts and sacrifices.  It is only a large group of brainwashed, religious zealots lead by rich zealots - many in Saudi and Syria, who fear imminent freedom.  They lose power and control, and they are not about to give that up willingly.  Heck, they immediately shipped in zealots from Saudi and Syria to fight against us because they feared that they could not persuade enough Iraq citizens to fight against us.  Without Saddam, who was a puppet of the rich oil barons, they lost control of the region.

If we need to stay in Iraq for 50 years, as their continued ally, then we should.  We've done it for plenty of other countries and Iraq deserves no less an effort from us.  You see havoc on the ground, but are blind to the need for stability in the middle east.  If our continued presence is needed to ensure that, then so it must be.  Imagine where so many other nations would be today had we not continued to stand with them and protect them from invasion.  

GWB has done the right thing, at the right time, and in the right place.  

Now them's the facts baby!

[williamlayton]

Bams-
The thing you and I do not agree on is what these folks want.
I do not think they want western culture, you see it as imperative that western culture be accepted.
I think they want a new leader not a new culture. I believe they are very happy with their culture and this government will have need to maintain this culture or it will fail, by revolt. It is their way or their way of life, if you must.
This religious culture is a tough one. the Lord said it would be when he sent Abrahams boy by the handmaiden, out into the desert.
I will tell you a fact--this culture will survive til Christ comes again.
Democracy does not bring change in culture and their take on democracy is not the same as ours. I think their idea of democracy is having the leader they want so they can keep on living the way they have lived for more than 3000 years. They have no thought of middle class or anything that resembles our thinking.
We would be just as hardheaded as they if they tried to force their thought on us.
Blessings

[cam0063]

The format for the Coalitions role in Iraq is not to change their religous beliefs or the Islamic Culture that the majority of the good people adopt and live and practice peacefully daily. We Aussies and the other members of the coalition are there, to assist in giving people the opportunity to have a choice in heir destiny, to enjoy a freedom that they have not had and to not fear persecution or the loss of their life - for speaking their mind, losing a game of soccer, falling pregnant outside of marriage, being a woman and working, to have equal rights, to be able to say no! To be Islamic and proud of who you are. This is not my western view of What I want them to have, this is the view of a group of Islamic students in Bagdad. This is what they want! Islamic culture is not under threat, the culture of terror and extremism that has been brewing there is!!!

[Dark:30]

History will state that our finest lost their lives and or their health in Vietnam and Iraq.  Memorials will be in place for both!  Wars and human conflict will continue!  

Find the cost of our freedom buried in the ground or waiting for health care in an under funded VA hospital!

When will we ever learn?  When WILL we EVER learn?

Frank W. Jones, two years in country, Vietnam. 100% disabled veteran.  100% praying that God will show all of us the way to world peace some day!

NOT holding my breath!

[Leverdude]

If our continued presence is necessary then its not stable. We cant just go around stabilizing every backwater third world country. I saw on TV something like close to a billion a week this is costing us, to keep stability in a country on the other side of the world. If it takes 50 years somebody else is gonna have to bail us out.

As we all know Iraq is a small piece of the mideast trouble. Are they all going to allow us to democratize them? If we're still in Iraq in 50 years it'll likely be a base for operations against Iran or Syria.

Thing noone wants to admit is if we never got involved in their world in the first place we'd not likely be where we are now & the longer we meddle in their world the longer we'll be targets of their agression.
I'm not just talking Iraq here but the whole mideast Islamic culture.




Have we helped them in the past? yup.
Have they shown apreciaton? that depends who you ask but I'd say no.

We keep talking about Iraq as if Iraq means anything to them & IMO it doesnt. They cross borders like we cross state lines. They care about their culture & religion more than nationality if they recognize nationality at all. Doesnt matter to them if theyre from Iraq, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Afganistan its them against us & the only reason they picked us out from the crowd is because we are there. So why stay?

Do you guys honestly believe that a country that may need 50 years of supervision is free?

What if they had the technology to keep us in check? What if they had the dominant culture in the world & sent a couple hundred thousand Islamic fundamentalists to our shores to bring us around to their way of life?
Would that be good? Would we consider American freedom fighters waging gorilla type warefare against an ocupying force terrorists or patriots?

I'm not trying to justify their cause just trying to put it in perspective as they may see it. I dont really care how they see it but it sure helps to know how your enemy thinks & I think they resent our presence.  Sure people turned out to vote but if they havent got what it takes to keep what we are offering then its all for nothing & if they had what it took we wouldnt be there.


We were ruled by a tyrant once, we fought & we died to make this country free. If anyone but us did it we wouldnt be free.  IMO we arent offering them a chance to be free, we are offering them a chance to be like us. Something I dont think they want.

[cam0063]

seem to have sent my post twice - Bill Gates with a  computer I am not! hahaha

[cam0063]

"What if they had the technology to keep us in check? What if they had the dominant culture in the world & sent a couple hundred thousand Islamic fundamentalists to our shores to bring us around to their way of life?
Would that be good? Would we consider American freedom fighters waging gorilla type warefare against an ocupying force terrorists or patriots?"

If the process of ridding the extremism in Iraq fails, your children or their children may just get to experience what is quoted above! You got a taste of them testing the water on 9/11 and then in Bali, we all did and it took but a handfull of terrorists!

Iraq is a small part of the middle east - yes and a hell of a lot rides on it! If suppressing/re-educating the extremist mentality amongst the minority there is successful, is that a better scenario than what the world has experienced from Middle Eastern sponsored global terror previously or is it worse? If it  fails what happens next? The troublesome factions within the middle east were basically left to their own devices after Gulf War 1 [some symbolic restrictions were in place]. Were the following years good peaceful years?

"Thing noone wants to admit is if we never got involved in their world in the first place we'd not likely be where we are now & the longer we meddle in their world the longer we'll be targets of their aggression.
I'm not just talking Iraq here but the whole mideast Islamic culture."

As history shows this hatred towards the Western world did not originate with US middle east policy. Its roots began with colonization by Great Britain, Germany, Italy, Portugal, Spain etc.... Without doubt you are a major focus of terrorist aggression and will remain to be. You are made up of people who emigrated from all 4 corners of the globe and established the most powerful and successful democracy and nation in the world. Any idiot with a slingshot or a canister of Anthrax wants a shot at the super power. Hurt this nation and the world trembles.... We stand for everything these Extremists despise and their hatred has no borders! We are targets for this hatred whether we like it or not and it isnot recent...


I find this discussion and reading other posts, has me asking a question now about life here - I live alongside the largest Muslim Community in the world - Indonesia.  They are a major consumer of our vast exports, particularly much needed food!. I deal with them regulalrly and know that many, like us and are wonderful people and many dislike us with a passion. If Australia succumbed to terror from an Extremist element of any religion, any nation. Australia being a country which produces immense volumes of food for export with a tiny population of our own - If we were invaded by another country needing food to feed their starving millions, needing room to expand their domain. Will the US be there for us? We asked this question once before when Timor was ravaged by Indonesian Govt sponsored terror during Timors' elections. We asked for help and were given token advisor support, but left high and dry by the administration at the time for much needed troops.... We have stood alongside the US in WWl, WWll, Korea, Vietnam, both Gulf Wars, Afghanistan, Iraq and peace keeping missions around the globe. Would the US be there for us? I would like to thinks so, tho I begin to wonder if the community support would be over whelming...

My views I do not enforce on others and I respect the views of others. Just as I respect those who put their lives on the line to enable me to be able to express my views now! The only advice I can say is - travel, meet the people you pass judgment on, look listen and learn.... The world is a good place, but a scary place too. I have seen the crumbling edges, I cannot sit back with blinkers on and convince myself that - if you leave the problems alone they will fix themselves. She'll be right mate! Reality isn’t so forgiving, as we are all too often reminded…. If we had a crystal ball, the world would be a better place. But that ain`t reality...

After all my ramblings these past few days, I am beginning to realize my intentions are a little greedy! I am not solely interested in Iraq’s stability, peace and well being from the Coalitions involvement there. I am also selfishly hoping their actions will assist my life in continuing to be – a good life and for the well being of my family, wherever life takes them! Back to the shooting forums for me and the sport I enjoy…..

Stay safe keep well and enjoy what you have, we are the lucky ones..... Adios….

[williamlayton]

I am in a quandary here--I got all two cells of my brain fightin each other.
I, as originally posted somewhere around here, felt that intervention in this country was, as originally stated by GW, not well thought out and I was opposed. This was admitted at a later date, but, we were committed.
I think, also, that terrorist need to be sought out and eliminated, whatever the stripe they come under.
I do not think our interventions will assure democracy for these people/this culture as this is a very foreign concept to them and also, they do not have the infrastructure to support it.
Even if they have a democratic government with all its trappings I do not think this will have any effect/affect on  the terrorist. I think they will still exist and flourish.
I don't know folks--I just do not have any faith that what we are doing is on target and will accomplish what we want. I do not have an answer, however; I am pretty sure we are looking thru rose colored glasses if we think this is a solution.
Blessings

[BamBams]

Cam:

Thank you for that well thought out post.  I am, pretty much, on the same page that you are.

[mag41vance]

I believe that if there was one button that could be pushed to eliminate the US from the globe, most predominately muslim countries would be killing each other for the chance to be the first to push it.
 Wait a minute, that's what they are doing now.   :eek:

[xnmr53]

The biggest similarity between Vietnam and Iraq is the reaction of the left wing. They seem bound and determined to give aid and comfort to the enemy, just like they did during Vietnam. I'm just wondering when they will start calling our toops "baby killers" and spitting on them?

[Leverdude]

I hope I'm wrong & we do make a lasting difference.
Thing is common sense tells me anything brought about over there by western powers isn't going to sit right with the common folks over there.

Far as thousands of them flocking our shores per my example IMO it'll never happen like that, they lack the ability to put together a force capable of anything even close to an overseas invasion.

They'll keep pecking away with a suicide bombing here, a highjacking there & whatever else they can do. I dont see that ending with a democratic Iraq either. The original issue with Iraq wasn't even about terrorism & while some come from there Iraq is a drop in the terrorist bucket.

Our children will be dealing with this same problem to be sure. This isn't going away weather or not we succeed in creating democracy in Iraq, but I think it would be better if we squashed the trouble makers as they arise than occupy the place indefinately.
Sure lose less American lives that way, Heck might be years between American deaths like that, not days or at best weeks.
 I should say coalition deaths but the fact is America is the one with hundreds of thousands there no one else.

We got Saddam, we ended his gov't, we set up & oversaw elections for the people of Iraq so they could choose theyre destiny. Now let them have it & see what happens from the saftey of our country. We have acomplished our objective. Almost, shoot Saddam then come home.

[ironglow]

I have a nephew, a couple neighbors and others who have returned just recently from Iraq and /or Afghanistan....

    Each one, to a man has said..." When I got home and saw the news on TV. my first thought was,... this isn't the Iraq/ Afghanistan that I spent the last year or so in"!!

    Friends; we are not getting the true picture! According to the returning troops I talked to, the average citizen of Iraq or Afghanistan doesn't have a problem with the troops....it is terrorists coming in from the borders that are the problem.
   Each of the troops I talked to got along fine with the locals and had experienced the locals informing upon or leading them to terrorists !

    Those folks don't like the terrorists either...

[Major]

I hear the same things from returning troops as what ironglow just said.   The only ones that don’t like us over there are the terrorists and our left wing media.

[RaySendero]

.....
100% disabled veteran.  100% praying that God will show all of us the way to world peace some day!

NOT holding my breath!

Sorry to here of your present situation.  If your disability is from your service - Thank you for your sacrifice.  One day God will show the world the peace you say you are praying for - Be assured of that!

However, until that day, people that want freedom must be willing to fight and die for it.  I believe this is the key to our exit from Iraq.  At some point soon iraq will have a democracy.  They can keep it only if they are willing pay the price to keep it!  If they succeed - They will be the first democratic Muslin country I'm aware of!

[chuckles]

xnmr53 wrote:

I'm just wondering when they will start calling our toops "baby killers" and spitting on them?

Every night on most networks. Shades of 68. :x

[ironglow]

To the disabled vet praying for peace...eventually there will be peace in this world...but not before " The Prince of Peace " returns...

   Until then we have two ways to seek peace...we can follow the Liberal's model or the Conservative's model:

  Liberals: Peace through concession or surrender...

  Conservatives: Peace through strength..

     Hint:... When the ravening wolves circle the flock...they don't spare the cowardly sheep...because they feel sorry for them..

    In fact, wolves seem to prefer to slaughter the weakest and most frightened ones...

[Leverdude]

Ironglow,

What would we be conceeding or surrendering if we left Iraq tomorow?
By your admittance the folks we are fighting arent even Iraqis for the most part, heck we might even be atracting terrorists to Iraq by our presence there.
We defeated a dictatorship & set up a democracy. Sounds like a win win situation at this point, why tempt fate?