Author Topic: Crud Ring (Read 1822 times)

D.E.C · « **on:** February 08, 2005, 01:32:11 PM »

Here's an interesting question. i've used 777 in a .50 perc. rifle and pistol and a .50 flint rifle and see the beginning of the dreaded "crud ring" in each. I have also used 777 in perc. revolvers, cartridge rifle and pistol and cartridge shotgun but do not see any evidence of the "crud ring in the perc. revolvers or the cartridges. I have fired a lot more rounds through the revolvers and cartridge guns than I have through the muzzle loaders.
What causes the ring in muzzle loaders but not the other guns?
Also how potentially damaging in the ring in a muzzle loader?

Keith Lewis · « **Reply #1 on:** February 08, 2005, 05:13:07 PM »

If anyone can answer the question I am going to be surprised. The crud ring occurs in some muzzleloaders and not in others. It seems to be relative to the hotter primers (209 for instance). It seems to be somewhat affected by the design of the forward face of the breechplug. It seems to be related to the relative humidity and the temperature when shot. It seems to be somewhat related to bullet weight with the heavier bullets causing more problem. Some Omega rifles have the problem big time (like mine for instance) other Omega owners claim to have no problem. The ring from what I have been able to determine is due to the sugar base of the 777 powder causing a carbon ring during firing. This ring usually forms just forward of the powder charge and in some rifles is very difficult to remove with just wet patches. I have to use wet patches and a brass brush to get the ring out of my rifle. I do not think it is damaging unless you try to load a second shot with the ring still intact and seat the bullet on the ring and not the powder charge. With the potential gap that could occur the result could be very bad. This situation has been talked to death but the actual cause and solution is still to be found. Of course this is my opinion; but isn't that what these talk sites are all about?

momsworry · « **Reply #2 on:** February 08, 2005, 05:22:17 PM »

I've noticed a crud ring in my .54 cal Traditions hawken rifle when using 777. I had to use a bronze brush to get it out and quite a bit of elbow grease. I've read that if you perform the wet, then dry swabbing between shots, you will minimize or even eliminate this crud build up. To me though, if I am to do that, I might as well use authentic black powder as the final clean up is not that much different. The real advantage of the 777 is that it is not supposed to foul the bore as much and you can shoot more without swabbing the bore between shots.

I shoot the stuff in my side by side 12 ga front stuffer all the time and have no such crud build up in it. I think it has to do with the confinement of a projectile over the powder. Evidently the shot string over the powder is not so tight and there is no carmelization of the propellent. Then again, who knows. I will use it in the shotgun, it performs well and is cleaner. I think I'll stick to authentic black powder in both my side lock percussion and my .58 cal flintlock.

crow_feather · « **Reply #3 on:** February 08, 2005, 05:53:47 PM »

I think I can help you on crud rings - stop using crud for powder - get some black powder and enjoy shooting without such problems.

It amazes me how many people just gotta make shooting black powder rifles difficult. Why, in trying to copy those of the past, do people work so hard to do it different.

C F

Cowpox · « **Reply #4 on:** February 08, 2005, 11:43:45 PM »

I'm with crow_feather, By all means use the black stuff. If you can't get real black, or have occasion to want to cheat on proper cleaning, I may have stumbled on the way to beat the crud ring with 777. Last August when we went out into South Dakota for our second prairie dog shoot, I decided to take my .32 flint lock along to exercise the close dogs. I decided to shoot 777, because we would be there for three days, and I really didn't want to heat water and give the gun a bath every night. It would be hot, no shade, and it is sometimes hours between 100 yard or closer shots, so I decided I would break the other rule(777 ain't black, so shouldn't cause hard fouling) and for lube I used petroleum based Barium grease. Barium is a high heat lube that won't liquify under heat and foul that little 20 grain charge of powder. The gun was used for only 20 to 25 shots over three days, but there was no sign of a crud ring when I got home and cleaned the barrel. Now one experiment does not write any science laws, and maybe in our four day shoot over Memorial Day, I will get a crud ring. But, it is possible the black powder lubes do contribute to causing the ring, and it won't cost you much to try some petroleum lube the next time you use 777 in one of your long guns. Then give us a report. Cowpox

quigleysharps4570 · « **Reply #5 on:** February 09, 2005, 12:23:38 AM »

Quote from: crow_feather

I think I can help you on crud rings - stop using crud for powder - get some black powder and enjoy shooting without such problems.

C F

Yep. The real is what it's all about.

D.E.C · « **Reply #6 on:** February 09, 2005, 01:01:48 AM »

My crud ring is on the face of the breech plug, not in the barrel.

crazy frenchman · « **Reply #7 on:** February 09, 2005, 03:28:17 AM »

:eek: I just can not stop myself from saying something about T7. It seems that TC also is having some problems with T7 locking breech plugs up in their guns. This is not being told to public as I found out. As Crow Feather says US THE REAL THING! Well as they say, KEEP THE FAITH

Keith Lewis · « **Reply #8 on:** February 09, 2005, 05:49:15 AM »

Since this is the traditional site I am not going to carry this too far but: it you see some reason to use a synthetic black powder I suggest you use the new Black Mag'3 powder which has none of the above problems. It is totally non fouling and non-corrosive. It leaves a small amount of gray powder in the bore. It is expensive so be aware. Personally I love the stuff.

D.E.C · « **Reply #9 on:** February 09, 2005, 01:57:19 PM »

Well as far as 777 being "crud powder" i guess results speak for themselves: three muzzle loading rifles, 2 in .50cal. both used with 777, only problem is the ring of fouling left on the plug face. very good accuracy ans reliability, no fouling problems between shots .

The third RIFLE, A .36 CAL FLINT USED ONLY WITH BLACK POWDER, ( GOEX AND SWISS ) BORE BUTTER AND BALLISTOL HAS RESULTED IN HEAVY FOULING BETWEEN SHOTS( GOEX) LIGHT FOULING BETWEEN SHOTS(SWISS) AND TWO TRIPS TO THE GUNSMITH TO REMOVE STUCK VENT LINERS. CANT TELL THAT BORE BUTTER HAS MADE ANY DIFFERENCE, BUT IT HASNT HURT ANYTHING. ALSO I CANT TELL ANY REAL DIFFERENCE IN ACCURACY BETWEEN SWISS, GOEX AND 777 .
HELL, MAYBE I'LL GO BACK TO PYRODEX!

roundball · « **Reply #10 on:** February 09, 2005, 02:19:58 PM »

Quote from: crow_feather

I think I can help you on crud rings - stop using crud for powder - get some black powder and enjoy shooting without such problems.

It amazes me how many people just gotta make shooting black powder rifles difficult. Why, in trying to copy those of the past, do people work so hard to do it different.
C F

Couldn't have said it better... :grin:

Snowshoe · « **Reply #11 on:** February 09, 2005, 02:27:24 PM »

The most consistant powder I have used in my Lyman Deerstalker is Pyrodex. I like using Goex FFG, but can not get the accuracy, and velosity I get with Pyrodex. I tried 777 and had a rough time cleaning the crud ring, so I gave up on it.

crow_feather · « **Reply #12 on:** February 09, 2005, 02:41:22 PM »

D E C

Oil, as in petroleum products, are not good in muzzle loaders. They should not be used. Once in the barrel, they must be completely cleaned out before anything is gonna work right.

Take the barrel and clean it using HOT soapy water, scrub it well. Then rinse using super hot water. I use paper towels to dry because they adsorb water so well. While still hot and after it is dry, lube the bore generously with a good NON-petroleum bore lube. Let cool, then wipe the bore with a tight patch to be rid of the excess lube. Also use the lube on the threads of the nipple or the vent liner. But NO oil.

Use one of the moose milks that is described in this forum and you will not have problems as long as you use black powder. Now 36 caliber tends to gum up a bit because of the smaller bore, but if you load a prb with a wet/squeezed out patch of good moose milk, it will work.

If not, then complain.

Best of luck in your endeavors,

Crow Feather

Longcruise · « **Reply #13 on:** February 09, 2005, 06:43:28 PM »

Quote

I think I can help you on crud rings - stop using crud for powder - get some black powder and enjoy shooting without such problems.

Well, I applaud your traditional spirit (honestly, not bein sarcastic), but I get the crud ring in all my guns using Pyro and goex, graf's, and swiss. Never tried T7.

The crud ring is barely noticeable with a round ball but if more than two shots are fired without wiping it starts to build up and it is cumulative to a point at least. When shooting flat based conicals, the ring builds much faster and is more noticeable.

The cure, for me anyway, is to wipe after each shot. The amount of solvent to use is more an art than science, IMO. It's thee solution with BP but maybe this T7 stuff is more prone to crud rings?

I find that lower humiidity is a contributer but don't recall ever having a day when there was not at least some crud ring.

My theory is that the ring gets baked on during those few ano seconds between ignition of the powder and the beginning forward movement of the projectile. Heavier projectile (conical) = more ano seconds = more time for crud ring to cook? At least that's my theory and I'm sticking to it until NASA gets the whole thing sorted out. :grin:

roundball · « **Reply #14 on:** February 10, 2005, 12:56:50 PM »

That's a puzzler for sure...

During the past 15+ years I've used Pyrodex RS, Pyrodex P, Goex FFFg, and Goex FFg...in about 20 rifles including inlines, sidelock percussions, and flintlocks, with 209 primers, #11 caps, and 4F priming powder;

In .45/.50/.54/.58/.62 calibers, using patched balls, Hornady Great plains bullets, TC Maxi-Hunters, Hornady Sabot/pistol bullets;

Light target loads, heavy hunting loads, layered loads of Goex & Pyrodex, year round hot & cold temperatures, high & low humidity, etc;

No crud rings no matter what variables I used...the only common denominator through all of that has been the lube...I used Natural Lube 1000 exclusively...seems to be the only difference

Longcruise · « **Reply #15 on:** February 12, 2005, 01:51:55 PM »

Quote

No crud rings no matter what variables I used

Hmm, just the opposite of my experience. You arent by chance one of those insensitive guys like on the Lifetime Channel, are you?

Why else could you not feel a crud ring? :grin:

roundball · « **Reply #16 on:** February 12, 2005, 02:45:58 PM »

Quote from: Longcruise

Quote
No crud rings no matter what variables I used

Hmm, just the opposite of my experience. You arent by chance one of those insensitive guys like on the Lifetime Channel, are you?

Why else could you not feel a crud ring? :grin:

:lol:
...uhhhhhh...maybe because there isn't any?

??
:lol:

FYI...at the end of a Saturday range session I field clean the rifle before the long drive home...I run cleaning patches all the way down of course, and they slide down smooth and fast, hitting the top edge of the patent breech hard enough to cut a neat circle almost completely out of the middle of the patch...all rifles, all calibers, etc...guess if there was this 'crud ring' I'd have felt it by now...

You mentioned in another thread that you use NL1000...wondering what kind of powder you use...all I've ever used in ML's has been Pyrodex and Goex

Longcruise · « **Reply #17 on:** February 13, 2005, 05:23:01 AM »

Quote

You mentioned in another thread that you use NL1000...wondering what kind of powder you use...all I've ever used in ML's has been Pyrodex and Goex

Well for a long time goex and pyrodex were pretty much the only options in my neighborhood. Nowadays I can also get Swiss, Graf, KiK (havent tried it yet have you?). Mostly I'm shooting Graf now but I've experienced the crud ring with all of them.

What kind of humidity to you have in your part of the country?

roundball · « **Reply #18 on:** February 13, 2005, 06:33:02 AM »

Quote from: Longcruise

Quote
You mentioned in another thread that you use NL1000...wondering what kind of powder you use...all I've ever used in ML's has been Pyrodex and Goex

Well for a long time goex and pyrodex were pretty much the only options in my neighborhood. Nowadays I can also get Swiss, Graf, KiK (havent tried it yet have you?). Mostly I'm shooting Graf now but I've experienced the crud ring with all of them.

What kind of humidity to you have in your part of the country?

A good question, but I shoot year round in all temps & humidity...just yesterday morning it was 26 degrees, and low, dry winter time humidity...fouling is firmer in general in the winter than in July/August when temps & humidity are both in the high 90's, but no crud ring...maybe a contributing factor is how quickly I go through a range session? For example, I take 40 premeasured charges in 35mm film canisters for each range trip...(different charges, different calibers)...I get everything set up, then basically begin loading and shooting...easily average a shot a minute...maybe what you're referring to doesn't have a chance to get established?

crow_feather · « **Reply #19 on:** February 13, 2005, 12:13:43 PM »

Mr. Crewcutt, I seem to have a problem with a crud ring on ole Billy here after I've shot two or three bar.

(Mr Crewcutt) Well, Mr. Bone, I had the same problem when fightin injuns. After two or three shots, I would have ta swab with a wet patch and then run a couple dry ones down the bore to get rid of that crud ring for I could shoot another injun.

NOT !

Crud ring is a problem caused by using non-traditional, don't wanna learn the right way methods of black powder shooting.

It reminds me about a guy that robbed a bank, got caught, and then bemoaned his fate cause he was in jail.

C F

Encore28 · « **Reply #20 on:** February 13, 2005, 01:42:46 PM »

Traditional guns need real blackpowder--------That is what I have found thru experimentation. Inlines are a horse of another color though.
JMHO
Encore28

Ramrod · « **Reply #21 on:** February 13, 2005, 03:59:41 PM »

crow_feather, I agree 100% about the powder, but could you please tell me what is traditional about moosemilk? The moutain men used grease, from whatever critter they had to hand at the time. They were also not above loading a bare ball, when things got really hot.

Longcruise · « **Reply #22 on:** February 13, 2005, 04:04:37 PM »

Quote

Crud ring is a problem caused by using non-traditional, don't wanna learn the right way methods of black powder shooting

Hey!! My crud rings are created with 100% natural and "PC" products.

Maybe it's me. Maybe I could cause a crud ring in your rifle.

Keith Lewis · « **Reply #23 on:** February 14, 2005, 05:16:34 AM »

I agree that humidity is likely a factor. I live in Arizona and have the worst experience with crud ring of any I have heard of. It seems that most who do not live where it is more humid. Not 100% but definately seems to be true in general.

crow_feather · « **Reply #24 on:** February 14, 2005, 11:49:57 AM »

As for moose milk, I honestly do not know whether some lube of water and a water mixable non-petroleum oil was used back then, but I would believe so.

Longcruise, have you ever put a petroleum product in your bore? Do you use a bore cleaner that has petroleum in it? I would have to believe that something other than the weather or humidity was causing this. Crud ring was not heard of nor mentioned until present times. I have a strong belief that it has to be a modern day product causing this problem.

Of course I have been wrong before..............

Best of luck in finding the problem

C F

Dave K · « **Reply #25 on:** February 14, 2005, 12:30:36 PM »

I have yet to shoot a Ml'er that didn't have some sort of crud ring. It may be 4" from the muzzle or 8" from the muzzle. Some guns are worse than others and some it is almost nonexistant, but it is there. The only change in the whole equation for me was the powder I used. Some were horrible, some were MUCH better.

Longcruise · « **Reply #26 on:** February 14, 2005, 12:42:00 PM »

Quote

Longcruise, have you ever put a petroleum product in your bore?

In 30+ years of shooting ml guns I've put just about everything you can imagine in the bore :grin: But specifically, the crud ring occured even during my "1000+ only" period and has also shown up when using any number of other "natural" lubes. My cleaning regimen for many years was just plain hot water and then wiped the bore with a patch of 1000+ while it was still hot and after it had dried. These days I use warm tap water and get the same results without burning my hands :grin: . I use a bit of alcohol to dry things out and then apply some 1000+ or one of my own concoctions. of olive/veg/peanut oil and beeswax.

As far as bore sovent goes, I've once again used many things including commercial bp solvent preps, windshield washer, "moosemilk" and sometimes just plain water. They all work fine and all remeove the crud ring with ease and of course it does not build up when the bore is wiped after each shot which is my practice since consistency is the name of the game.

Quote

Crud ring was not heard of nor mentioned until present times. I have a strong belief that it has to be a modern day product causing this problem.

Well, we know that many things are not mentioned in historical documents, but that doesn't mean they were not known. (please don't put that down in the old "if they'd a had it they'd a used it category") but otoh, many things were common and everyday not really viewed at the time as being worthy of mention. If you read some of the actual diaries and journals of the moutain men (which I'm sure you have done already) you don't find very much mention of the details of firearms usage and management simply because they were everyday and mundane things. Only mentioned when it was pertinent to some other more significant tale or anecdote. Common knowledge at the time and about as likely to be mentioned by them as you and I might go into detail about the octane of the fuel we used on our last fill up.

In any case it is not a result of modern day products, I' sure.

BTW, the "Mad Monk" has documented that at 30% humidady and less, black powder fouling hardens consideralbly

roundball · « **Reply #27 on:** February 14, 2005, 01:27:16 PM »

Quote from: Longcruise

BTW, the "Mad Monk" has documented that at 30% humidady and less, black powder fouling hardens consideralbly

As I also mentioned earlier, low humidity does seem to make BP residue a little more firm...the humidity here in the winter gets low enough to build up static electricity walking across carpet...but maybe it just doesn't get as low here as in other places...dunno...the bottom line is I don't get a "crud ring" with the products I use shooting flintlocks in North Carolina...
.....another good reason to live in "The Olde North State"
:grin: :grin: :grin:

Hey, we need to put up a poll...have everyone who gets crud rings identify the lattitude of their location...or better yet, a simple data collection program that captures location, time of day, week, month, year, moon phase, temperature, humidity, wind speed, wind direction, powder type, powder amount, lube, wipe betwen shots or not, etc, etc, etc...then we could cross cut the data six ways to Sunday and get to the bottom on this

:grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:

D.E.C · « **Reply #28 on:** February 14, 2005, 01:34:09 PM »

Well, I'm almost sorry I Brought it up. So many opinions and such. However here's another question, Ballistol instructs us to use 1/2 parts Ballistol to 1/2 parts water for cleaning black powder. The result is a thick milky liquid that runs everywhere. It cleans well and seems to lube well. Is this anything like moosemilk? And could someone please send me a definant receipt for moosemilk?
Oh, by the way, I'm buying a GPR in .54 cal. perc. soon, In case anyone wants an oppurtunity to tell me how smart or how much of an idiot I am .

roundball · « **Reply #29 on:** February 14, 2005, 03:32:07 PM »

Quote from: D.E.C

Well, I'm almost sorry I Brought it up. So many opinions and such. However here's another question, Ballistol instructs us to use 1/2 parts Ballistol to 1/2 parts water for cleaning black powder. The result is a thick milky liquid that runs everywhere. It cleans well and seems to lube well. Is this anything like moosemilk? And could someone please send me a definant receipt for moosemilk?
Oh, by the way, I'm buying a GPR in .54 cal. perc. soon, In case anyone wants an oppurtunity to tell me how smart or how much of an idiot I am .

Don't be sorry for bringing this up...everybody benefits from a good, civil information exchange...

IMO, the .54cal is a heck of a good caliber...just shot my .54cal flinter at the range the past two Saturdays...the only thing I'd suggest differently would be to get a TC Hawken instead :grin: :grin: