Author Topic: 6mm, 257, 6.5mm? (Read 1892 times)

tipiguy · « **on:** February 09, 2005, 02:29:23 AM »

As the addiction to T/C barrel mania builds, I find it impossible to not always be planning on my next barrel. I have gone through many previous posts and read all the cartridge descriptions in the Reloading Book for Contenders. I do have some questions that I need some help with...

I read about what a great cartridge the 6mm TCU was. Many people have advocated its accuracy, especially at long range. Brass and dies are relatively cheap. I can also get a Custom shop barrel for over $100 cheaper than an SSK. The books all said it is marginal for deer. While I want the barrel for varmints, etc. I do want the option to use it for deer in Pennsylvania.

I thought about the 6mm JDJ. Is it really that much better than the 6mm TCU? Is it worth the additional costs of the barrel, higher cost brass, and more expensive dies?

I was set on the 257 JDJ from how everyone praised the cartridge. How far above is this cartridge above the 6mm TCU? Again, is it worth the costs?

I had not considered previously the 6.5JDJ. That was until I read JD Jones' description in the loading book. He praised it as one of his best wildcats for both varmint and deer. Is this a better cartridge than the 257 JDJ for dual purpose or were his comments prior to the creation of the 257JDJ?

I guess my final decision is between the 6mm TCU and one of the JDJ (but which one?). I realize that you get what you pay for but the 6mmTCU sounds pretty good. (Also, getting all of them is definitely not an option :cry: ).

Thanks for any advise you can provide.

tipiguy

bgjohn · « **Reply #1 on:** February 09, 2005, 03:04:09 AM »

I like the TCU cartridges a lot. So much that I had two Remington xp-100's rebarreled to TCU's. One is now 6mm & the other is 6.5 TCU. The 6mm would be excellent on varmints. The 6.5 would probably be adequate for deer. Where does that leave you? 257 TCU ? Maybe so. As far as the JDJ series, I had a 226 JDJ from SSK. It was overkill. I doubt that the Contender frame is strong enough for prolonged use of most JDJ calibers.
JM :grin:

flatlander · « **Reply #2 on:** February 09, 2005, 03:36:50 AM »

JD claims 2900 fps on an 85 grain ballistic tip for the 257 JDJ and that it is excellent for both deer and varmints. Lets assume that you aren't going to push the limits on it and keep it down to 2800 instead. The 6 TCU is going to push an 80 grain bullet in the 2500 neighborhood or a 75 grainer at 2600 or so. The 6.5 TCU will push an 85 grn bullet at 2500-2600. Is the 250 fps m/l difference worth it? I guess that will depend on your shot range and size of your deer.

jhalcott · « **Reply #3 on:** February 09, 2005, 06:55:17 AM »

tipi,I FLAT out KNOW the 6.5 JDJ will take deer.(17 so far with mine) It also is accurate enough to take prairee dogs at 200+ yards. Ground hogs at 300 are easy after a bit of practice. I don't know how long the brass will last as I have not worn any out YET. In my barrel 120's are the MOST accurate. 85's are screamers,over 2800 fps but groups were running about 1 to 1 1/4 inch at 100 yards. Twice the size of the 120's. I would shoot 20 ounce soda bottles at 300 yards for fun! Get the 6.5 JDJ and top it with a 2x7 or 2x8 variable.

Johnly · « **Reply #4 on:** February 09, 2005, 07:05:31 AM »

I've been through this myself. I have three 6mm TCU barrels( all super shooters), a couple 6.5 TCU, and have come to the conclusion the a 7-30 W ends up being the best overall choice. It will shoot bullets as fast as the 6.5mm JDJ when loaded up to comparable pressures and the BC of the bullets are close enough that there is little difference in down range performance. What ever sacrifices there are in choosing a 7-30W, I think they are offset by the availability of factory ammo, and standard production dies.

tipiguy · « **Reply #5 on:** February 09, 2005, 08:06:13 AM »

But is there really a 257 TCU or was that suggestion just a "there should be a 257 TCU". I did not see it on the custom shop list. I had not yet heard of it and maybe it would be exactly what I "NEED".

tipiguy

38 super · « **Reply #6 on:** February 09, 2005, 09:24:42 AM »

yes tipiguy there is a 257 tcu. i wish i had one. some of the more knowledgeable people on this forum have stated that tc's custom shop does have the reamers to chamber this round although dies are around 100 bucks and i still want one

bgjohn · « **Reply #7 on:** February 09, 2005, 10:10:09 AM »

My gunsmith rents his reamers. He says they have one for the 257 TCU.
JM

Moe · « **Reply #8 on:** February 09, 2005, 12:40:39 PM »

I don't have a chrono. What I do have is a 12" VV 6TCU, a 14" 6mmJDJ#2, a 16.5" 257JDJ. I have HAD a 21" 6mmJDJ#2 and a 15" 25 Bullberry. The 6TCU just flat shoots anything I put in it. It is the most accurate barrel I have ever owned, very easy to form cases etc. The 6JDJ is very accurate also, had to work at it a little. I use the same bullets in both and see no difference in performance. Although there must be at least 200fps difference.
The 257 with 87gr bullets really hits hard on water jugs, so did the 25BB. Seems like the distance I can shoot accurately with the 257 is much greater than the others, it is a carbine with a 6x18 scope that might have something to do with it. Very accurate, used two different powders so far with no noticable difference.
The deer and critters in Arizona are small and the 6TCU will work great, so will the 257. I could not choose between the two. I guess I kind of babbled. Hope this helps.

fyrepowrx · « **Reply #9 on:** February 09, 2005, 01:29:47 PM »

I also had the same thoughts about the various "mid-size" chamberings for contenders. I am a barrel hoarder however, and usually have more than I need (a lot more most of the time) but after all, contenders are cool & I like reloading so what the heck.

Seems to me that a 6mm is still a 6mm... Even the pros who have killed a jillion more deer than me argue about the effectiveness of .24 calibers. I think that as long as you can shoot, and pick your shots, a 6 TCU would be adequate for my hunting situations, but I usually shoot skinny little Oklahoma deer that weigh 125-150 pounds. Arent your Northern deer a bit bigger than ours? No matter how fast you start it, whether its from a 6TCU or a 6 JDJ its still a 6mm... I shoot a 6 TCU too, but dont deer hunt with mine since I have bigger stuff I feel better about carrying, even though we dont have many whopper deer here. I figure the way my luck runs I would see the biggest deer of my lifetime while I am carrying the smallest deer caliber I shoot, and then get presented a bad shot angle to boot If you do decide to use this one anyway, the 6 JDJ packs more punch for deer & shoots flatter if you plan on shooting pasture rats with it. About the only advantage I see in the TCU is the $$$ factor, since brass is cheap and barrels and dies are cheaper than the JDJ. If you do get a 6TCU now, you can always have it re-chambered later.

In .25 caliber, I just got my second .257 TCU, and I have a .25 Bullberry, which outruns the .257 JDJ by a bit. I do hunt with mine, have killed a couple of deer, although have not tried anything heavier than 100 grains in my barrels, but could... my Bullberry shot 117 grain Hornadys OK. Any way you slice it, that bullet packs about 15% more weight, with a bigger diameter, and higher sectional density than a 100 grain .243 bullet.

Like Moe said, those 87 grain .25 bullets splatter water jugs well, and I shot an armadillo with a 75 grain bullet too.. (possum on the half-shell!) :shock: I can say with authority that a .25 Bullberry is a one-shot-stopper on an armadillo

If I had to choose one I would probably pick a .257 JDJ over the 6mms OR the 6.5 calibers the 6.5s just dont have as good of a bullet selection. Or maybe its because I am biased, since I am a quarterbore fan I have contender barrels in 25/20, .256 WinMag, .257 TCU, & 25 Bullberry.. dont have a .257 JDJ at the moment but have in the past, and probably will again

I know I keep bringing up the deer-shooting part, but you did say you wanted to be able to deer hunt with it. Any of the cartridges are going to snuff out a groundhog about as well as the other at any reasonable range, and unless you plan on 500 yard shooting I dont think it matters which you choose for that purpose.

Anyway, those are my thoughts, but you know what they say.. free advice is usually worth exactly what you paid for it! :wink:

Moe · « **Reply #10 on:** February 09, 2005, 01:59:45 PM »

to mention the last deer I killed in southern AZ was 45 pounds. I think the 6TCU is more than adequate for that size deer.

Alaninga · « **Reply #11 on:** February 10, 2005, 01:16:01 AM »

I will be barreling my own CZ 527 for a TCU round,,,was gonna do a 6TCU but reading your posts about the 257 TCU may make me change my mind. Deer, Coyotes, and targets. I have a Shilen 257 barrel I could use already....ideas???
thanks, alan in ga

bgjohn · « **Reply #12 on:** February 10, 2005, 01:39:23 AM »

Sounds good. I'm a fan of CZ's and TCU's. Let us know how this turns out.
JM

HL · « **Reply #13 on:** February 10, 2005, 01:42:37 AM »

I have chronographed most all of my loads in my 6mm-223.

For deer hunting I use the 80gr. Speer Spitzer
Using H335 or AA2230, you can easily reach 2775-2800fps.

Groups, when I do my part are consistently around 3/8" at 100yds.

I have take 8 bucks with this cartridge ranging from 40yds to 250yds. The most any moved after the shot was about 40yds. Most dropped where they were standing.

yukiginger · « **Reply #14 on:** February 10, 2005, 02:13:48 AM »

This is a pretty new cartridge but with Remington behind it, and all the AR guys out there looking for a more powerful/long range/harder hitting/deer cartridge this should be the ticket. There isn't a lot of information out yet on this but my prediction is that it will really take off. 115-120 gr. bullets are the norm, I believe. Thompson's custom shop has the blued barrel now (maybe only 14") and some of the custome suppliers are making barrels. Remington just released a load with their Core-lokt bullet. You need to decide if the ballistics are suitable for what you intend.

I was thinking about a 7-30 Waters in 14" for my contender and deer hunting, but I think I will wait until I can get a factory barrel in stainless for the 6.8 spc.

Mark

tipiguy · « **Reply #15 on:** February 10, 2005, 06:02:19 AM »

To be honest, I had not considered the 25 Bullberry before. Where can I read more about it? What case is it based on?

The more I learn the more I want...

Thanks!

tipiguy

skb2706 · « **Reply #16 on:** February 10, 2005, 09:52:21 AM »

You can read more about on the BB website
http://www.bullberry.com/25bb.html

It is based on a 30-30 brass and for the most part Freds data is 'spot on'.

casper_zip · « **Reply #17 on:** February 10, 2005, 10:57:10 AM »

Hey Everone !!! :grin: :grin: :grin:

Now yall talking my kind of gun stuff. I shoot the 6X45, the 257 TCU, and the 6.5 MM TCU. I also shoot the 7X30 Waters, 30 Herrett, many others. The fact is, regardless of what most reloading manuals say, all these calibers will kill deer or most any animal in the handgun class. I know, been there, done that.

The manuals also say the 6.5 MM TCU was no good for IHMSA, but I beg to differ. Also, go and read what Ted Spotti of Los Angles Silhouette says about this. All of these calibers in my handguns, all super 14" or 15" barrels. They are as cheap as you can get for shooting a lot. A can of powder goes a long way, and buy your bullets in bulk for everyday shooting.

Big John hit it on the head with what he said. I'm so glad people are waking up to what the T/C's will do in 6X45, 257 TCU and 6.5 MM TCU. I also shoot the 30/223 which will down anything if you place your shot o.k. and use the right bullets.

Better go, have been reloading all day, and just took a break and read all of this and I love it. Take care, reload safe, shoot a lot, and have fun.

All the best,

Casper_Zip :grin: :grin: :grin:

casper_zip · « **Reply #18 on:** February 10, 2005, 11:05:05 AM »

Hey It's Me Again: :grin: :grin: :grin:

Forgot to mention, but Fox Ridge will make you a 257 TCU very, very reasonable. The place to get your custom dies is from C& H. I think the web page is C4D. They have made several sets of custom dies for me, and I think the going price is $65 a set. These dies are as good as they come, and I use many sets of Redding. I don't have no business ties with C & H, but I do think as good a product he has, you ought to email him, or go to his web site. If he don't make it, you don't need it.

All the best,

Casper_Zip :grin: :grin: :grin:

fyrepowrx · « **Reply #19 on:** February 10, 2005, 01:04:38 PM »

Casper,

wanted to mention that as of about a month ago i was told Fox Ridge would not make up any more .257 TCU's.... apparently they dont have the reamers any more. Called them to verify & was told the same thing, then thought i would check with Ed to see if he could get it done, since he orders quite a lot from them. They told him the same thing...no more .257 TCU's... do you have a source there to get one done? i would love to have a carbine barrel in this chambering.

casper_zip · « **Reply #20 on:** February 10, 2005, 04:07:42 PM »

Hello Again: :grin: :grin: :grin:

I am completely unaware of the news that Fox Ridge won't/don't make this caliber anymore. Took me by suprise, I have quite a few custom Fox Ridge barrels, and I guess I must have got lucky on this one. I was going to have one custom made but when I put in my order, they done the usual, sent me a letter and I signed it, and sent it back like I always do. In a matter of a few weeks, UPS had it on my front porch.

I even had a brochure, not sure where it is now, but they stated that they would build any contender barrel as long as there was no safety issues involved like too powerful of a cartridge for the frame. I had and have no problem with this. I've owned a custom barrel by JDJ for a 300 Savage, and the 300 Savage barrel I had I sold it, and told the guy it was too much for a Contender frame, or mine was. I won't abuse my frames with a barrel for that caliber. Oh, it was fine when loaded down, but with factory loads, it was too hot for the contender frame. I also had a 250 Savage custom built from JDJ and it also gave the same indications. They were beautiful barrels, just glad I found them a good home, gave the new owner my opinion of why I departed with them.

It's a shame Virgin Valley is not in business any longer. I have several of his beautiful works of art, and they do shoot. I guess what I am trying to say, if you get a 257 TCU, I guess you'll have to go to JDJ or Bullberry or Mike Sirious (not sure of spelling on his name). Wow, just checked JDJ and Mike's prices, and they have really gotten pricey. Bullberry has the 25 on the 30-30 case, that would be a fantastic round, too. It's amazing how accurate the 25 calibers really are in the small 223 case.

I shoot the beautiful little 25/20 in a T/C contender, and it's also a sweet heart. My cousin's granddad killed his biggest hog he ever killed with one shot from his 25/20 Winchester rifle. I also read in one of my old magazines that the world record whitetail deer killed around 1930 if I remember right, was killed with the 25/20. I'm not be any means touting this little round for a deer killer, but, it almost has "magic" when you shoot one, and get addictive as I am on my smaller cases in contenders.
In case anyone thinks I am a big sissy, I also shoot a Super 14" T/C contender in 45/70. It has a brake and man, wife says, she don't have to rake the leaves out of the yard when I shoot that thing. Lyman handbook says, and I quote, " This is not a handgun for the faint of heart." Amen on that.

Hey, if I can find someone or any more info on how to get you a 257 TCU, I will/am looking. I wanted one since 1969 when John Wooters brought out his 25/222 which he called the 25 CopperHead. I fell in love with it, and when I got able to have me one, finally got one, but elected to go 257 TCU, since I had lots of 223 brass.

Better go, sorry I might have bored you with all this, but I know how a fellow handgunner feels when the ole itch starts.

All the best,

Casper_Zip :grin: :grin: :grin:

bgjohn · « **Reply #21 on:** February 11, 2005, 02:09:57 AM »

That's my opinion also with the JDJ calibers on the Contender frame. Too hot for full power loads. I know a couple of local gunsmiths who agree with me. Go with the TCU calibers.
JM

tipiguy · « **Reply #22 on:** February 11, 2005, 02:11:39 AM »

I really appreciate all of you sharing your experiences. I think I have settled on a 257 TCU (if I can find one) or a 25 Bullberry. I have lots of 223 and 30-30 brass.

Last thing...I intend to use a 12" barrel. Is one of these options maybe better in a short barrel?

thanks again.

tipiguy

Moe · « **Reply #23 on:** February 11, 2005, 02:45:39 AM »

tipi, I think the TCU round would be better suited for the 12 incher, but the 25BB would be good also. My 25BB was 15 inch and shot very well. Expect a long wait from BB though, maybe 4-6 months.

fyrepowrx · « **Reply #24 on:** February 11, 2005, 04:05:21 AM »

My .25TCU is a 14 incher, and my .25BB is a 15...guess you would only loose about 50-75 fps by going with a 12. Forgot to mention in my earlier posts there is a great article on the .25 Bullberry in the "Wildcat Cartridges" book, author was Jay turner...his max velocites reported for the Bullberry are as follows:

60 grain...@3200 fps
75 grain...@3000 fps
87 grain...@2700 fps
100 grain ..@2600 fps

this was from a 15" barrel.

newhh · « **Reply #25 on:** February 11, 2005, 04:27:03 AM »

Hi Tipi, forums are a great place to get info so look at all of them you can find.

That being said, allot of people have a lot of opinions, some right and some wrong. You also have to think about the laws of physics and how they apply to guns. Sift through the info and discern what will apply to your situation.

For chambering check on On Target Tech, they use an EDM process that doesn't require a reamer, just very exact chamber specs. This means they can create any chamber you want, within reason of course.

There is also a thread out there where a smith wanted to figure back-thrust and created a setup to hold a barrel with out a breach. He set-up a crony at both ends and was going to see if he could figure a correlation between bullet speed and case ejection speed. To his surprise he found that the straighter the case was the lesser the the amount of case ejection happened. He also discovered that the AI extreme cases design with a 35 or 40 degree shoulder not only did not eject, but most of them didn't even back-out the length of rim!!! All that means that an AI case design causes very little head pressure against the frame. The two points to watch in this is of course the right power and that the chamber and case be oil-free. Again, if you acquire a good understanding of the laws physics you will start to understand how all of these things work.

One of the things you didn't stipulate is the length of barrel you were thinking of. In a 10" the 257 TCU can't be beat. If you are going to use a 12" or 14" then you will find that the 250 Savage AI can't be beat and will give you the aviliabilty to use regular 250 Savage loads as they will expand to AI configuration upon firing, reducing initial pressures and back-thrust. The same can be said for the 300 Savage. If the barrel is going to be 16.25" or longer, because of the longer in barrel power burn time, the 250 Brady or Bradley, (not suer of spelling), will put you in the range of a 257Roberts if proper power is used.

Another round that has not been mentioned is the 257X50R. The tcu case is 45mm long where this one 50mm long. It will easily beat the 257JDJ, and come close to the 250 Savage while using less power, and because of the small case diameter is almost impossible to over load. Use RWS cases and you will not have any case problems. These are the most expensive of the 5.6X50R but it is worth it.

The other item of decision is barrel twist. There are several formulas to figure this, bullet weight vs. barrel length vs. twist, but just talk to an open mind smith who is interested in helping to edgucate you so you can understand what is needed for your requirements. If all they want to do is expound on how great they are and their way is the only way I would say "no-way" and go some where else.

bgjohn · « **Reply #26 on:** February 11, 2005, 05:37:42 AM »

I just looked at Ed's Contenders web site. Few TCU's are listed and no 257 TCUs shown at all. The same go's for the auction sites. In order of availability the TCUs are 7mm, 6mm, 6.5mm. 257's are rare as hens teeth. I wouldn't pay a premium for one myself. I'd choose a 6mm or 6.5 and be happy with it. The SSK barrels I saw were priced higher than a hunchbacks a$$.
JM :-)