Author Topic: 45-70 reloading... (Read 1991 times)

inluvwithsara · « **on:** February 10, 2005, 01:48:50 AM »

I just got my first 45-70 and ordered some 300grain bullets, and dies for my Dillion 550, and as I was reading my reloading manuals one said with unique, I should use a wad of fabric...
Never loaded anything that required that before...
HELP...oh, any pointers on the quirks of the 45/70??

Thanks.
Fred

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #1 on:** February 10, 2005, 02:56:27 AM »

Quote from: inluvwithsara

I just got my first 45-70 and ordered some 300grain bullets, and dies for my Dillion 550, and as I was reading my reloading manuals one said with unique, I should use a wad of fabric...
Never loaded anything that required that before...
HELP...oh, any pointers on the quirks of the 45/70??

Thanks.
Fred

The reason they require a wad of fabric is because when using unique powder, it is a small charge and you would not get good ignition with the powder. The wad of fabric keeps the powder at the bottom of the case. I personally like IMR4198 in my 45-70 with 300 gr. bullets. I have great accuracy with it. Also you will not have to add a wad of fabric to it.

gcf · « **Reply #2 on:** February 10, 2005, 01:25:36 PM »

Although I have not yet tried any 300's in my Ruger #1, I have found fairly good accuracy (& stupendous knock down) using Cast Performance gas checked 405's, over 47.0 of IMR 3031.

http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2131969283&idx=3

JBMauser · « **Reply #3 on:** February 10, 2005, 01:49:59 PM »

Just to clarify per your post. What you read did not suggest adding fabric. It more than likely asked for a tuft of dacron which refers to a poly fill material that you can get at WalMart in the fabric department. I use kapok for filler myself. This tuft of fluff is designed to do as a previous poster has instructed. It positions the powder to the rear of the case so that the ignition is more consistant. With the load of Unique they listed it would litterally be no more than a streak of powder laying along the base of the long case and the primer flash would fire over the entire length of the powder stripe. All powders were designed to burn in a stacked collumn. Fillers give me more accurate groups with more consistant velocity. They do not add but a few grains of weight and in most cases melt or burn off. They do raise pressure slightly. I understand the newest Lyman manual no longer lists fillers for any loads. I guess they have lawyered up. There are those who feel using fillers risks ringing their barrel, Many do not. Best of luck with your loads. JB

JBMauser · « **Reply #4 on:** February 10, 2005, 02:02:57 PM »

Just to clarify per your post. What you read did not suggest adding fabric. It more than likely asked for a tuft of dacron which refers to a poly fill material that you can get at WalMart in the fabric department. I use kapok for filler myself. This tuft of fluff is designed to do as a previous poster has instructed. It positions the powder to the rear of the case so that the ignition is more consistant. With the load of Unique they listed it would litterally be no more than a streak of powder laying along the base of the long case and the primer flash would fire over the entire length of the powder stripe. All powders were designed to burn in a stacked collumn. Fillers give me more accurate groups with more consistant velocity. They do not add but a few grains of weight and in most cases melt or burn off. They do raise pressure slightly. I understand the newest Lyman manual no longer lists fillers for any loads. I guess they have lawyered up. There are those who feel using fillers risks ringing their barrel, Many do not. Best of luck with your loads. JB

brasskeeper · « **Reply #5 on:** February 12, 2005, 06:43:45 AM »

i Use the dacron fiber, its cheap and is found in walmart and the sewing section like they said. It will be in a big bag and more than likely be enough to supply a small army. I load my rifles (marlin 1895 &1895SS) with light loads of either IMR 3031 or Imr 4227 with a 300gr cast lead bullet. It doesnt kick to hard and is fun to shoot.

lilabner · « **Reply #6 on:** February 12, 2005, 11:24:17 AM »

Hatcher's Notebook contains a report of an Army study of 30-06 ammunition and how shifting powder in the case affects velocity. Study found if a cartridge was tipped down such as happens shooting downhill, MV was 40-50 fps slower than when the cartridge was tipped back so the powder was against the primer. For consistency, you either have to use filler or go with slow burning powders that completely fill the case.

lilabner · « **Reply #7 on:** February 12, 2005, 11:35:02 AM »

Hatcher's Notebook contains a report of an Army study of 30-06 ammunition and how shifting powder in the case affects velocity. Study found if a cartridge was tipped down such as happens shooting downhill, MV was 40-50 fps slower than when the cartridge was tipped back so the powder was against the primer. For consistency, you either have to use filler or go with slow burning powders that completely fill the case.

Throckmorton · « **Reply #8 on:** February 12, 2005, 08:05:03 PM »

you are in for a whole lot of fun with that thumper.

Once you get used to it,try some 350gr and 405 gr bullets...if you're into the Bigger Bang type of shooting that is.
Ball powders like Varget will meter MUCH better in your dillon than stick type powders.I think I had good luck with 3031 as well.
I run em through 1 at a time in my 550.theyr'e tall,wobbly boogers in the dillon's shellplate.You can run em progressive,but I have lots of time on my hands and like to go slow and enjoy it.

quigleysharps4570 · « **Reply #9 on:** February 12, 2005, 11:52:11 PM »

[quote="Throckmorton]You can run em progressive,but I have lots of time on my hands and like to go slow and enjoy it.[/quote]

Use to run them through on my progessive too when doing smokeless. Cranking one out everytime I pulled that handle. Then one day while I was reloading, my neighbor came over with his little boy...one of those that you have to keep an eye on all the time. Was using 5744 that day...couldn't tell if you "double" charged with that load. Ended up with 3 others in that 100 lot that were double charged. Went to doing them one at a time after that and no distractions whatsoever.

gcf · « **Reply #10 on:** February 13, 2005, 12:06:26 PM »

Quote from: Throckmorton

Ball powders like Varget will meter MUCH better in your dillon than stick type powders.I think I had good luck with 3031 as well.
I run em through 1 at a time in my 550.theyr'e tall,wobbly boogers in the dillon's shellplate.You can run em progressive,but I have lots of time on my hands and like to go slow and enjoy it.

I load this caliber progressive on my 550, but hand measure each load using the dillon 500 powder die. Do the same for my precision 308, w/ very good results.

JC · « **Reply #11 on:** March 02, 2005, 02:56:13 AM »

Inluv,
Like has been said in here you will love that 4570. I have the guide gun and it is a blast. I shoot 300's with mine and use reloader 7 with awesome results. As previously stated 3031 and 4198 are both great also. I have a friend that uses cream of wheat as a filler too. I have been with him when he used it, don't ever use it if you have skipped a meal though. I makes you hungry. The 350 hornady might be something to try as well...

wild willy · « **Reply #12 on:** March 02, 2005, 04:10:47 AM »

Throckmorton wrote:

Ball powders like Varget will meter MUCH better in your dillon than stick type powders

Unless they just changed it Varget is not a ball powder

sharps4590 · « **Reply #13 on:** March 04, 2005, 01:23:44 AM »

Graeme Wright wrote a book called "Shooting the British Double Rifle" In it he took fillers to task and found what he called packing foam, which is that foam stuff you find around lots of things packed in boxes, made the best filler. I shoot lots of old, obsolete, big bore cartridges in both single shots and double rifles and using his direction as a guide I have to agree with him. As an example, a 1 1/2 inch long piece of this foam in 50 cal. for my 500 BP Express double weighs less than 3 grains and completely fills the case. It also completely negates any powder shift. Using smokeless in these old cartridges requires a filler of some kind. Wright took a bunch of these loads to the Birmingham Proof House and the new Kynoch in London where they proofed them for him. Pressures were often less than what these old rifles were proofed for and to my memory never exceeded proof. Ordinarily they are also exceedingly accurate. My Reilly will group less than 2 inches at 50 yards from both barrels with open sights. Not bad for a 125 year old double and 52 year old eyes!!!!

I've also successfully used Cream 'O Wheat and cornmeal as a filler. A side effect of cornmeal is that the odor in the air after a shot smells like burned hair. I prefer Cream 'O Wheat. I've never tried dacron because I never trusted it to keep the powder where it should be and have read of examples where a day of driving along rough roads caused powder to migrate past the dacron.

Vic

bajabill · « **Reply #14 on:** March 04, 2005, 03:35:22 AM »

are there any Hodgdon powders that are recommended to use a filler. Or better yet, which ones do not need or desire a filler. I dont want to mess with that additional step in loading for my new cartridge. Currently, I have varget and H4350 on my shelf. I have not decided between the Rem 300 or the Rem 405, both jacketed, bullets yet. I will probably be loading to the middle pressure limit for any data source that has the 3 ranges.

Throckmorton · « **Reply #15 on:** March 05, 2005, 04:47:37 PM »

wild willy
you are correct of course. :oops:
I'ts been a while since I even looked in the jug much less loaded any 'thumpers'.
It do meter nicely tough.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #16 on:** March 05, 2005, 05:01:25 PM »

Quote from: bajabill

are there any Hodgdon powders that are recommended to use a filler. Or better yet, which ones do not need or desire a filler. I dont want to mess with that additional step in loading for my new cartridge. Currently, I have varget and H4350 on my shelf. I have not decided between the Rem 300 or the Rem 405, both jacketed, bullets yet. I will probably be loading to the middle pressure limit for any data source that has the 3 ranges.

5744 is touted as not being position sensitive and recommended for use in reduced loads and large case older cartridges like the 45-70 to 45-120.

Quote

Is not intended to set new velocity records. What it will do, however, is allow you to shoot reduced loads, without fillers, in just about any cartridge, especially the older, low pressure, rifle cartridges. IHMSA shooters take note, it is also useful in large capacity handgun cartridges.
5744 has some very specific design criteria. First, it is double base with a high percentage of Nitroglycerin. This gives the propellant a high energy content. It also promotes consistent ignition even with low volume powder charges in the large capacity "old timers' such as the 50 Sharps. In fact, the 50 Sharps was used in some of the development work for this propellant. Nitroglycerin contributes to excellent shelf life and reduces the effects of humidity and temperature.
Second, 5744's short length provides uniform metering so you can spend more time shooting and less weighing charges.
Third, 5744 has a relatively low bulk density. This contributes to its ease of ignition. In fact, ease of ignition and consistent velocity, regardless of powder position in the case, are the two main criteria we set in manufacturing new 5744.

http://www.accuratearms.com/data/5744.htm

jh45gun · « **Reply #17 on:** March 05, 2005, 08:02:11 PM »

2400 is also not position sensitive so you do not need a filler with it. My two older lyman books show 2400 used for their jacketed and cast loads for the 45/70. Last powder I used for my Rolling block was 3031 but I may have to try some 2400 as I use that for other cast loads. Jim

bajabill · « **Reply #18 on:** March 07, 2005, 04:14:56 AM »

I have a couple of the USA Loadbooks for other chamberings I load, anyone have this little book for the 45/70 and is it filled with any hard to find bits of info, or just the readily available free or cheap data? I will probably add one to my order when buying the other necessary gear anyway. Just keeping all of the data in one easy to carry package is worth the 7 bucks.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #19 on:** March 07, 2005, 05:40:18 AM »

The 45-70 Loadbook just has all data from just about every powder and bullet mfr in one book, well worth the $6 or $7 it costs. For a beginner like me that started out just loading for the 45-70 is was great. But I also had lots of help from shooters here at GBO which really was great!! :wink:

50 Calshtr · « **Reply #20 on:** March 07, 2005, 06:38:18 AM »

Sharps4590
I too read Wrights book and thought about the foam but decided to stick with Dacron. On pg 73 Wright mentions the foam is "totally crushed during firing and comes out as fine plastic grit". I have not been able to find any foam that does this, most I have seen compresses into a spongy mass, which I think may actually act as a bore obstruction. Ross Seyfried mentions several rifles destroyed by use of foam and advises the use of dacron. For now I think I will stick with the dacron, I use a over powder "wad" of a single layer of TP about the size of a thumb nail and a ball of dacron about the size of a golf ball in my 500 Exp and 577/500.

sharps4590 · « **Reply #21 on:** March 07, 2005, 02:30:48 PM »

50cals..

I remember reading about the foam coming out as you described. I've never found anything remaining of the foam I'm shooting but perhaps I didn't look close enough. I never considered the foam acting as an obstruction because it is so light, lighter than anything else save perhaps dacron. I was concerned enough to weigh it first. Hmmmm.....interesting.

I usually try to keep up with Seyfried because I believe he really knows whereof he speaks. Also, he writes and experiments a lot with rifles I admire. Obviously I missed him saying he knew of rifles blown up by the use of foam as a filler, but then I'm confident he's written a lot of articles I'm completely unaware of. Could you direct me to that article? I certainly don't want to destroy my Reilly. God knows I'll never get another.

Thanks!

Vic

50 Calshtr · « **Reply #22 on:** March 08, 2005, 06:44:40 AM »

Sharps 4590, Vic:
In the Oct-Nov 2002 Handloader "Loading the 500 Express", pg 43, Mr Seyfried says "I cannot warn too strongly against using any kind of cereal, plastic or foam filler. While a little foam worm looks innocent enough, I know of two very fine double rifles that have been ruined with foam filler." That got my attention, so I wrote him and asked about Wrights book. He is not to enthused about some of Wrights ideas and like me has yet to find a form of foam that behaves as Wright describes, ie, turns to a fine grit. I've used dacron for a few years and have seen no visable signs of problems, however until recently I have not used as much as Ross advises, which is a lot. I need to get back with him on using 4198 in my 577/500. My one, and so far only, attempt to work up a smokeless load for this rifle showed more of a flattened than I liked. The rifle is nitro proofed but still I don't want to ruin it. Have you had any luck with these loads?
Best.

jh45gun · « **Reply #23 on:** March 08, 2005, 09:24:09 AM »

I know lots of guys use fillers with success but I have seen to many warnings not to use it so I don't. Since the newer reloading books do not reccomend it anymore I take their warnings seriously. You may shoot 2000 rounds and never have a problem but it only takes one to ring a good barrel. Jim

JBMauser · « **Reply #24 on:** March 08, 2005, 11:31:48 AM »

jh45gun, I use fillers Kapok mainly, but I find no fault with your statement, I would only add to what you said, that you can ring a barrel without fillers as well. Each take their own chances. I think the fact that new manuals leave the data out on fillers has more to do with lawyers (like lawyer triggers on guns, read Ruger) than "New thinking on the matter" The current issure of The black powder Cartridge has an article discussing Uinque and some other powders as prone to ring barrels filler or no. JB

sharps4590 · « **Reply #25 on:** March 08, 2005, 12:32:29 PM »

50 Cal....

First of all thank you for the info on Seyfrieds comments. I'm grateful.
If you're asking me if I've had any luck with 4198 loads in the 577/500, no. I've never worked with that cartridge or 4198 in any old cases except the 45-70. Most of the time I've relied on IMR 3031. I worked up a load for a friend of mines 577/450 in his Martini-Henry using black. It shot about as well as could be expected given the sights and that behemoth of a cartridge!!! That was my only experience with the 577 case.

JB...

There's a lengthy history of fast burning powders in large cases both ringing and blowing barrels. The last I read no one was absolutely certain what was going on. Is there any new information out? What did the article you read have to say? ( I've been out of the loop a couple years )

Vic

JBMauser · « **Reply #26 on:** March 08, 2005, 01:35:03 PM »

the article said that powders faster than 4198 and 4227 produce seemingly random events that can damage barrels. He sited a 17gr Unique (45/70) load that left a barrel with hundreds of rings over time. He was down on all pistol powders and 2400. Plus he was down on 3031 because of the low volume fill in a 45/70 as he had hangfires. This is of interest to me as I have seen many 3031 loads of 34-35gr . No real conclusions were made other than fast powders and light loads can break and ring weapons.. JB

sharps4590 · « **Reply #27 on:** March 09, 2005, 01:09:25 AM »

Gee...before I went completely to black I shot 34 grs. of IMR 3031 for years and never had a hang fire. No filler. Ignition was as near perfect as I've experienced and accuracy was exceptional. That was with a 450 or 500 gr. bullet in a 45-70. Guess I was doing something wrong huh.

Vic

gcf · « **Reply #28 on:** March 09, 2005, 03:29:35 AM »

Quote from: sharps4590

Gee...before I went completely to black I shot 34 grs. of IMR 3031 for years and never had a hang fire. No filler. Ignition was as near perfect as I've experienced and accuracy was exceptional. That was with a 450 or 500 gr. bullet in a 45-70. Guess I was doing something wrong huh.

Vic

Hey Vic -
Was that a jacketed, or cast bullet?

I've been shooting 47 grains 3031 under a Cast Performance 405 gas checked bullet in my #1. Accuracy is + + (under 3/4" @ 100), but recoil is a bit more then I'd like for plinking.

I loaded 45.0 through 49.0, but 47 seemed to be peak - in that range, at least...

50 Calshtr · « **Reply #29 on:** March 09, 2005, 04:36:04 AM »

Vic, JB & GCD
I'm with you guys, my "standard" 45-70 load for years has been 36 - 38 gr of 3031 depending on the bullet, 300 - 450 gr. I've also used it in larger BP cartridges, up to and including 577BPE for light nitro loads. Now I'm reading in the latest "Black Powder Cartridge News" (winter 2004, # 48, pg 14) that 3031 is "unsuitable for blackpowder duplication loads especially in long cartridge cases" siting problems with a 45-120. This may not apply to the 45-70 but it sure makes me wonder about anything larger. I'm almost to the point of just shooting black until someone sorts the mess out and everyone agrees.