MOSQUES

[Mac11700]

I dunno, Mac. I see cries to nuke Mecca in here pretty regularly. Guess it's all in who you wanna kill?

And I see fake claims pretty regular, too. I've never been in a mosque and doubt that any of those making the claims have, either.

DJ:

You right about some of the fake claims...and certainly about those wanting to nuke Mecca...I've always said...punish those who deserve it...not the innocent people around them..it's kinda of hard to do...when a-lot of folks have the " Kill them all...and let God sort it out " mentality...

Leftoverdj wrote:
Last time I looked, we still had freedom of speech, religion, and the press in this country. I'd like to keep it that way even for speech, religion, and press I don't like.


I don't believe that we have any of these things.

FWiedner ;....we do have these still...and while we do have the problems you addressed...nothing in the Bill of Rights or in the 1st Admendment gives any group of people the Right to promote murder of  killing innocent people...and while our fore-fathers faught against England and shed blood...this was totally different than what these radical extreamist are promoting...they aren't fighting to promote Liberty...they are urging others to take up arms against anyone that is not of their faith...it's not a political struggle...but one of madness...in this struggle of theirs...they wish to be ruled by religon...and remember...in this country...we faught against having any church rule us...that's why there is a  seperation between church and state...

Mac

[Mac11700]

Mac,
Your right I was pretty young but I remember. Cant say I remember exactly why it happened tho.

Still I cant see pussyfooting around with them because they have oil. Their people attacked us & there should be a price for them to pay.  
Why not invade Saudi Arabia & take what we want?  Oh yeah that would be mean & ruthless right? Well, when in Rome do as the Romans.
They hate & attack us anyway so what could happen?
 Usta be to the victor goes the spoils, nowadays its to the victors goes the bill. In regards to the United States anyway.

I'm a simple man who lives in a simple way. I bother no one who lets me be, but if you want trouble & get it dont expect me to care about you once its over.

Why not invade....Good Greif...you think it that simple...just go and take what we want?...That isn't how a democracy works my friend..this country may be a-lot of things...but to do that...we would toss every set of values and what this country stands for...we have faught and died for into the trash can...and we ain't the Romans...nor do we operate in that manner...We have laws that set us above those that act like that...we are better than that...and must always remain so...

Mac

[FWiedner]

Why not invade....Good Greif...you think it that simple...just go and take what we want?...That isn't how a democracy works my friend..this country may be a-lot of things...but to do that...we would toss every set of values and what this country stands for...we have faught and died for into the trash can...and we ain't the Romans...nor do we operate in that manner...We have laws that set us above those that act like that...we are better than that...and must always remain so...

Mac

Not to take your comments out of context Mac, but that is exactly how a "democracy" works.

Democracy is the strict rule of the majority.  Mob rule.  Might makes right.

Our government has pretty much thrown any of the values that the founders held dear and bled for, out the window.  We have engaged in a campaign of aggression under the guise of "preemptive defense".  Our founders would have called it "conquest".

I believe that when we're sitting all by our lonesomes some evening and working on resolving that formula of good vs. evil, we need to put some serious thought into which side America should currently be factored into.

Not saying that the "other guys" are any better, but if one is interested in doing the right thing, these things need to be weighed.

[Leverdude]

Mac,

With all due respect Sir thats Exactly what we did in Iraq because we THOUGHT they MIGHT be able to get at us.

Now when we're talking about a country where we KNOW they did attack its wrong?

Thats politics I guess, the world views Iraq as a bad place so its ok to to go kick butt, The world views Saudi Arabia as a good place so its ok if their citizens attack us.

Personally I think if we would learn to mind our own buisness we wouldnt have half the trouble we do.

You poke your nose in a bees nest you'll likely get stung. Now if you really want the honey theres ways to get it that are less painful & if you dont want the honey at all why put your nose in there in the first place?

On another note I seem to remember reading that the Saudis (just like Saddam) were paying the families of terrorists. I may well be wrong but IMO theyre the same kind of people.

[Leverdude]

Fweid,

More & more lately I'm finding it hard to believe how I once viewed your opinion. Your ability to see things in an objective way is IMO a very commendable quality.

To many countries around the world right now America looks very much like a tyrant.
Not long ago I would have scoffed at the idea but now I'm not sure.

The principles that make us great have been whittled down little by little here to the point that in our lifetimes we may find ourselves looking back to the good old days when we were free to say what we want, go where we want & do what we want.

[Mac11700]

Why not invade....Good Greif...you think it that simple...just go and take what we want?...That isn't how a democracy works my friend..this country may be a-lot of things...but to do that...we would toss every set of values and what this country stands for...we have faught and died for into the trash can...and we ain't the Romans...nor do we operate in that manner...We have laws that set us above those that act like that...we are better than that...and must always remain so...

Mac

Not to take your comments out of context Mac, but that is exactly how a "democracy" works.

Democracy is the strict rule of the majority.  Mob rule.  Might makes right.

Our government has pretty much thrown any of the values that the founders held dear and bled for, out the window.  We have engaged in a campaign of aggression under the guise of "preemptive defense".  Our founders would have called it "conquest".

I believe that when we're sitting all by our lonesomes some evening and working on resolving that formula of good vs. evil, we need to put some serious thought into which side America should currently be factored into.

Not saying that the "other guys" are any better, but if one is interested in doing the right thing, these things need to be weighed.

Democracy is the strict rule of the majority.  Mob rule.  Might makes right.

No-Sir...Democracy isn't mob rule...mob rule is anorchy...and all the laws of the land are broken...this country operates on laws...and those that break the law... are  prosecuted in a court of law...and they pay the price that is due...

Our government has pretty much thrown any of the values that the founders held dear and bled for, out the window. We have engaged in a campaign of aggression under the guise of "preemptive defense". Our founders would have called it "conquest".

No-sir...this isn't Conquest..if it were...we would have taken the oil fields and kept them,and sure as He** woudn't be helping establish a Democratic Government where there was a totalitarian dictatorship...and we should get out of there as soon as it takes hold......what we did was in this countries best interest...was Hussien involved in state sponsered terrorism directed and funded against this country...yes...and had been for years. and was doing everything possible to take it to the next level..and in the wake of 9-11...and his continued training the same sects that brought this war to our shores. and if he would have been allowed to continue...it would have been a biological attack next or even neuclear...folks tend to forget that..I for 1 stand behind our president...doing what has been done...war is never easy...lives will always be lost...and a price will always be paid...

Leverdude...no disrespect taken...each of us has our own veiwpoints...and we can discuss them like adults...but...

Mac,

With all due respect Sir thats Exactly what we did in Iraq because we THOUGHT they MIGHT be able to get at us.

We are there because of the information ganrnerd thru the CIA and other means...while that in itself is enough to normally send shivers done my back side...in this case it was creditable enough to mobilize this country to act...and quickly.....not all that has transpired will ever see the light of day...at least for 50 years or more if then...but that is how our military and intelligence agencies work...we don't know everything...and can only see what is brodcasted...

Personally I think if we would learn to mind our own buisness we wouldnt have half the trouble we do.

We were minding or own buisness...we didn't ask for those planes to crash into the Twin Towers...or the Pentagon...or into that Pennsalvania fieild...but they did...these terrorist brought this war to us...on our soil...and wherever they are...what ever country harbours them...they will be found and dealt with...I don't want to another soilder or civilian die in Iraq...or Afgannistan...or any other place around the world...but I know they will......As long as we "mind our own buisness" and not get involved...and allow them time to plan the  destruction of our light of freedom...our soilders will be called upon to lay down their lives so the rest of us can be free... it's funny...how folks can become isolationist...when it comes to paying the price of freedom...we are the light bearers for the little guys all over the world...to see...to give them hope... to aspire to...folks may have a problem with that...but it's the truth...

Remember the  song....." Have you forgotten"......I haven't...I think about it all the time... and of the people I never got to know... who died that day...

Mac

[williamlayton]

We acted as though we had a directive from God to intervene. We had no such directive and the information received which led to this situation proved to be be faulty.
Folks, terrorism in all of its many stripes has no home base, It is groups of extremist with no home, no national base. It may be a religious base, a political base but wiping out a nation or changing its political operation will not cause these groups harm. They will exist, as do cancer cells in a body, in the framework of a healthy body. Living amongst healthy organs only to raise destruction as they wish.
Blessings

[powderman]

I thank God for GW BUSH. He says what he means, and means what he says. He will chase and destroy these Godless subhumans wherever they go. I can only imagine the mess if hanoi john had been elected. Imagine fighting a war with a traitor and liar in charge. POWDERMAN.  :x  :x  :x  :x  :x  :x

[Leverdude]

Mac,

So why is it taboo to mess with the Saudis who we know harbor terrorists & we know attacked us.

As far as minding our buisness we stopped that a long time ago.
I know its too late now & we cant turn back time but the fact is we have been pushing the Mid east around since before I was born.

Bin Laden himself said one of their biggest issues with us was our military presence in the region Arabia to be specific.  These people dont want us in their territory.
How would we react if there were a constant uninvited mideast military presence next door to us? I dont think we would like it much.
The big difference is we are very strong militarily & wouldnt stand for it while all they can do is cry about our presence & commit terrorist acts.

Let them kill each other all they want. Its not our affair & I think if we let them alone they would be kept busy killing one another.
Its this mentality of theirs that has kept them behind technologically & left alone they could not pose a real threat to us. Terrorism wont go away as its the only way they have to wage war. Were they as advanced as us & able to put together a military might equal to us we would not even be there.

As I said its probably too late now as we have made an enemy but theres no reason not to learn from this.

[fe352v8]

I know I feel better having a dried out drunk, who can't balance a check book, and could not find his way to his NG drills, leading the charge.  At least Kerry earned his money, he married it; George is just another member of the lucky sperm club and never paid a due is life, and is making sure no of his other rich kid friends will either.

jon

[Mac11700]

Leverdude...

   
Mac,

So why is it taboo to mess with the Saudis who we know harbor terrorists & we know attacked us.

One reason really...they have always taken care of those who have sponserd terrorist...and that includes those in the Royal family...do a little reasearching on this and you will see exactly what I mean...

As far as minding our buisness we stopped that a long time ago.
I know its too late now & we cant turn back time but the fact is we have been pushing the Mid east around since before I was born.

Your right in this...but...pushing them, around isn;t exactly what we have been doing...we have invested BILLIONS of  US dollars ...in helping Suadi Arabia...over the years...and they are our Staunchest allies in the mid-east...no other  Arab Nation gave us what they have...none...and this help we have given them...has cost them plenty...with their radical muslim neighbors...

Bin Laden himself said one of their biggest issues with us was our military presence in the region Arabia to be specific. These people dont want us in their territory.

He**...Bin-Laden wants us all dead...of course he doesn't want an American presence there...he won't rest till all of the Muslim nations are at war with us...do you Honestly believe he would stop being a terrorist if we all of a sudden got up and pulled out completely...nope...he would just turn on his next target...

How would we react if there were a constant uninvited mideast military presence next door to us? I dont think we would like it much.

While most wouldn't...but I really don't see this happening anytime soon...

Let them kill each other all they want. Its not our affair & I think if we let them alone they would be kept busy killing one another.
Its this mentality of theirs that has kept them behind technologically & left alone they could not pose a real threat to us

Let me get this straight...you really believe this to be true...the don't pose any real threat to us  :eek: ...would you stop for a second and imagine what would happen if the unthinkable ever happened...in any major city at rush hour :eek: do you have any idea of what it would take to make a city the size of Washington DC unihabitable for say.....what's the half life of cobalt??250 years??? This is what we went to war over...those small portable labs that have been making sizable amount of all the small WMD...they new of the stock piles of larger rockets...capable of striking 600 miles away...and the plans of getting the triggers for nukes there...thank God they caught them...but what of  the 300 lbs of fissionable material that is missing...and as far as the other biological WMD...they are still there...and it's only a matter of time till they are brought here...


You may not believe the threat is real...but...there are many more that are afraid...and take it very seriously...this isn't make believe...not anymore...the threat is very real...

As I said its probably too late now as we have made an enemy but theres no reason not to learn from this.

We will always have enemies...but an old wise tale comes to mind on this...." keep your friends close...but...keep your enemies closer...."

Mac

[powderman]

I know I feel better having a dried out drunk, who can't balance a check book, and could not find his way to his NG drills, leading the charge.  At least Kerry earned his money, he married it; George is just another member of the lucky sperm club and never paid a due is life, and is making sure no of his other rich kid friends will either.

jon

Spoken likea true dumcrap. You people just can't stand to see a president with morals and that isn't afraid of the aclu. GW prays FOR his people instead of like bj bill who preyed on us. You probably voted for him too. POWDERMAN.  :x  :x  :x  :x  :x  :x  :x  :x  :x

[Mac11700]

Easy Powderman.....sounds like we are just being baited into a fight here...let it go...Bro...it ain't worth the effort ..... :wink:

Mac

[fe352v8]

Powderman

I voted for GH Bush, and Dole  Being a vet I would rather the CIC had been there and done that.  I even voted for Gore, not only was he a vet but, he invented the internet.

Would you rather get a tax break for driving a Hummer, or get a hummer?  Real Americans wants both.

Sorry if you are roiled; but whether your conservative or liberal, democrat or republican, (see I am PC they are alphabetical), politicians are self serving. He, (so much for PC, masculine pronoun), would make human sacrifices if he thought it would get him elected.

Life is no joke, but funny things happen.

jon

[IntrepidWizard]

fe,name another President that had a MBA,owned his own businesses.Your comparission to Skeery is like Night and Day you are luckey you don't have the drunk as first lady let alone a indecisive ,phony,liar.

[fe352v8]

IW

GWB is the first to have an MBA.  No comparison just observation, he said he was a reformed drunk, even without the war we are racking up massive debt, and it would appear that he missed quite a few weekend drills.  Which business are you refereing to, oil company that went bust or baseball, where his familys pals made him MGP even though he was a minority owner, so as to use political connections to help push through a bond issue for a new stadium and raise value of team?  I did know Congi drank.

Lifes no joke but funny things happen.

jon

[Mac11700]

fe352v8:

Why are you trying to start a flaming war...and what exactly does this have to do with the Mulsims or Mosques for that matter...seems your just wanting to get into an argument and bad mouth the president...

Mac

[Dali Llama]

it would appear that he missed quite a few weekend drills.  

...unlike Slick Wille, who never missed opportunity to drill anyone, ask Dali Llama? :?  :?  :?

[fe352v8]

not a war just a different perspective.  Why is mentioning the foibles of GWB out of bounds, but it is fair game to bring up Willies, I shoud have paid for the dry cleaning, or Kerry's, I married a Ketchup queen.

If you can not find the irony in what these folks do, I am sorry, but aside from the human costs, these guys are funny.  I mean look at Iraq, they defied the UN, so without UN approval we punished them, in defiance of the UN.  We also did it because they were going to use WMDs against us, ok did not find any, well they were going to make some, oops they were not, ok bring democracy to an oppressed people.  Then there is Kerry, I voted for it till I voted against it.  

I think we would be better served when our dealing with others was an example of our ideals then lip service to them.  Maybe thats why so many are distrustful of our motives in the middle east.

lifes no joke but funny things happen

jon

[Leverdude]

Mac,
I really wish I could figure out how to do a quote & insert my text in there like you can.  :-)

I realize we have given the Arabs billions, but wonder what for.
I also know the Royal family does the right thing ocasionally but feel its only to keep our money pouring in. Also the very fact that we help just the ones we can gain from takes away from any illusion that we are just doing the right thing. We wouldnt care a bit or have ever given them anything had it not been for oil, but thats for another day.  
Only reason they chased Bin Laden away IMO is because he was too open about his agenda not because they didnt like it. What of the common man in Saudo Arabia? Bet they dont like us as much as the Royals we support do.

I dont think Bin Laden will stop terrorism, nor do I think the rest of them EVER will, its the way they operate. My point is they picked us because we, more than any other country go running around interefering in there world. Also we shouldnt forget how long it took before they brought terrorism to our doorstep. Lotsa other countries get whacked much more frequently. Your very right that he would just pick his next target. Wouldnt be us so it wouldnt be our concern

Your right about them not having a militaru presence next door anytime soon. Thats because they cant, not now & the way they think they will never be able to. Thats why I say theyre not a real threat. 9/11 was a tragedy no doubt, but realistically we lost 3000 innocents, how many noncombatants have we killed since we have been in their back yard, 10,000? 20,000?  truth is we will never know but there can be no doubt that every time it happens it incites hatred in them just like 9/11 did in us.

I understand & share your fear of them taking out a major city over here but do you really believe that our actions there are doing anything to make them not want to make that a reality. If we want to stop that from happening then the troops we have over there should be on our borders & in our ports protecting us not some third world hell hole.
Remember as well that we are the only nation in the world so far to use a nuclear weapon in war & we dropped it on civilians. Were we justified? I think so but I bet theres alot of people worldwide who would disagree.

I believe for sure the threat is real, I just dont think we are doing anything but escalateing the hatred they feel for us & cant see how that will lessen the threat.

We just aint gonna agree on this I guess & thats ok.  :-)

Rest assured that I support our troops & what they are trying to do. I dont think tho that our current policy in regards to whats going on is doing anything but letting us use all our fancy military toys.

[Dali Llama]

 Why is mentioning the foibles of GWB out of bounds, but it is fair game to bring up Willies

Do anyone state that life in its entirety be fair, inquire Dali Llama? :?  :?  :?

[Leverdude]

not a war just a different perspective.  Why is mentioning the foibles of GWB out of bounds, but it is fair game to bring up Willies,

jon

Its fair, just alot more people here support Mr Bush than Mr Clinton or Kerry is all.  :-)

[fe352v8]

Fair is in fairy tales.  Life would be too boring if everybody agreed.  If it was not for liberals like me you would have to kick the dog or beat your wife.  So you see I am just trying to save your family.  Hows that for liberal magnanimous gesture, see we do know whats best.

life is no joke but funny things happen

jon

[Dali Llama]

If it was not for liberals like me you would have to kick the dog or beat your wife.  

Dali Llama suggest discharge of firearms at evil soda pop cans be more likely vehicle for release of pent-up frustrations for himself.  Dali say he kill many of 'em deader than a doorknob. :grin:

[fe352v8]

Dali

To quote a revered conservative, forgive me Ted, there you go again, you have to take the can for recycling, and do not get me started on lead contamination let alone anger and guns.  The bauxite will have its revenge

life is no joke but funny things happen

jon

[Leverdude]

Fair is in fairy tales.  Life would be too boring if everybody agreed.  If it was not for liberals like me you would have to kick the dog or beat your wife.  So you see I am just trying to save your family.  Hows that for liberal magnanimous gesture, see we do know whats best.

life is no joke but funny things happen

jon

Actually you dont seem too bad for a liberal.
You make some valid points & know some pretty big words.  

[powderman]

fe352v8. All of this has what to do with mosques? You sound a lot like lazer on another board. POWDERMAN.  :?  :?  :?  :?  :?  :?

[fe352v8]

Thanks Leverdude

Actually I am more of an  constructionist, with a touch of pessimist and a dash of agnostic thrown in.   I just like to see the pendulum swing both ways (no Dali thats not an entente) because people of goodwill often find good solutions in the middle.  The reason for big words, I am short, but my car has a long hood and I shoot a 50-70 rolling block.  Ted if your watching I always recover the lead honest.

life is no joke but funny things happen

jon

[powderman]

I'll never be able to afford a rolling block, but have always wanted one. I have my own poor mans rolling block, an H&R SHIKARI in 4570. I bet that 5070 is a real blast to shoot, I've never seen a rolling block in 5070. POWDERMAN.  :grin:  :grin:  :grin:  :grin:

[Dali Llama]

do not get me started on anger and guns

The two do not necessarily go together, say Dali Llama.