question regarding loads/loading

[jdbe]

I have a 1860 44 cal and have always used the standard powder measure that is on the end of my flask as provided by cabela's ( think around 30grn) a felt wad then the ball.  This leaves a bit of room on top of the ball in the cylinder.  Is this the correct way?  I ask because I read that you should never leave an air space and should fill it with corn meal or something to take up space.  Now is this true?  I realize we need to compress the charge with the ball and not have a gap between ball and charge, but I never worried about adding anything to move the ball to the end of cylinder.  Was the book that I read referring to underloading on black powder cartridges not cap and ball or should I be adding corn meal to move ball to the end of the cylinder.  It would seem that adding any material that does not burn would increase recoil as you have the equal - opposite reaction thing going on.  As it was, I was getting about 2" groupage at 25 yards with the 30 grain which seemed ok to me -even though it was way high.  I filed the groove deeper on the hammer to lower point of impact a bit.

[DakotaDan]

There are two issues: seating the ball on the charge and the affect on accuracy regarding how far into the chamber should the ball go. The ball (or wad and ball) should be firmly seated on the black powder charge slightly compressing the powder. It is a dangerous practice to leave an air space between powder and ball. Some suggest that the ball should be close to the edge of the cylinder to facilitate accuracy when the ball enters the forcing cone of the barrel. In order to get the ball at the end of the cylinder when a smaller black powder charge is used, some suggest corn meal added to the top of the powder charge and then the ball firmly seated on the powder/meal combo to raise the ball up to the edge of the cylinder.

Please do a search of Gatefeo's posts here on this message board for excellent descriptions of loading CapnBall revolvers.

[Shorty]

I ponder;
Black powder is explosive (it burns pretty durn fast).
If a ball is seated deep into the chamber, the powder gets to burning up before the bullet has to pass the gap between the cylinder and the barrel.  Does this mean anything?
If the bullet is seated near the mouth of the cylinder, the powder is just igniting when the ball leaps into the forcing cone.  Does that mean anything?

[Shorty]

I ponder;
Black powder is explosive (it burns pretty durn fast).
If a ball is seated deep into the chamber, the powder gets to burning up before the bullet has to pass the gap between the cylinder and the barrel.  Does this mean anything?
If the bullet is seated near the mouth of the cylinder, the powder is just igniting when the ball leaps into the forcing cone.  Does that mean anything?

[Shorty]

dang!  Don't tend the fire while posting!  :oops:

[Mark whiz]

What DakotaDan said.  :grin:

unless you use more than one wad or add some kind of space filler (corn meal, farina, etc) between the powder & ball - you will have maybe 1/2" of space between the ball & the end of the cylinder.  This gap is really nothing to get "anal" about, since accuracy is a relative point with these guns anyway.

Since I started making my own wads, I found felt that is double the normal Wonder Wad thickness and that goes a long way toward getting the ball closer to the end of the cylinder.

Shorty.................. regardless of how fast the powder burns or how close the bullet is seated in relation to the forcing cone, the burning powder is making gas and that gas HAS to be expelled or else the cylinder will explode.  So as long as you use enough powder to create enough pressure to expell the ball all the way thru the bore - all is well (as long as there was no air gap between powder & ball in the 1st place).  If you use too little powder - the lower pressure will push the bullet some to alleviate the pressure build-up.........but not enough to force the ball out the barrel.

[Singing Bear]

Aside from all the great advice and info the others gave you, you're doing just fine with what you got.  That's how I loaded my ASM 60's before I started using paper cartridges and these don't have a felt wad between the powder and ball.  

Btw, if your's are Piettas, don't try shooting without wads without checking your chambers first.  I've had a string of chain fires from the front due to gaps between the ball and chamber walls.  Big gaps.   Either the chamber mouths are out of round or the chambers themselves are not true.   The easy fix was to load with wads, dry or lubed.  

As for shooting high, it's the nature of the beast.  I have 4 60's.  2 by Pietta and 2 by Armi San Marco.  They all shoot about 8" high at CAS distances.   I just do a 6 o'clock hold on the plates.  If they're the smaller 6" plates, I gotta hold about 2" to 3" lower.   Never got around to filing down my rear sights.  :wink:  :-)

[jdbe]

Thanks for the info.  As I understand it, as long as the charge is large enough to get ball out chamber, you are ok ( ass long as you keep it under 30 grains vol eq).  If I understand it the part about spacers to get ball near end of cyl is an accuracy thing.  I had not thought of just adding two of my wads between powder and ball.  I was hapy with accuracy as at 25 group was good if high as hell.  I have not had the chance to test fire after filing the groove on the hammer, but that should help.  I figure that point on at 25 yards should be good as just plink and do a little rabbit hunting with it.  What do you guys think about point of impact - should I file till point on at 25 or some other range like 50?

[filmokentucky]

If you are shooting a '60 Army and using a 30 grain measure, the rammer should seat the ball firmly on the charge without a wad being used.  Lube over the ball is a good idea to keep fouling soft and lubing the cylinder arbor is a good way to keep fouling from seizing the gun up. With a thirty grain charge, the ball should be nearly at the mouth of the chamber. If it isn't, you either have very large chambers or a very small measure.  2" groups at  25 yards is something to be pleased about no matter what charge you are using.

[jdbe]

I will double check the measure as it was what came with the flask for the start up kit from cabela's.  I shoot a long gune, so have an adjustable measure for it, so will verify the charge, but it does not bring ball to top of chamber even with the wonder wad.

[LCSNM]

There are two issues: seating the ball on the charge and the affect on accuracy regarding how far into the chamber should the ball go. The ball (or wad and ball) should be firmly seated on the black powder charge slightly compressing the powder. It is a dangerous practice to leave an air space between powder and ball. Some suggest that the ball should be close to the edge of the cylinder to facilitate accuracy when the ball enters the forcing cone of the barrel. In order to get the ball at the end of the cylinder when a smaller black powder charge is used, some suggest corn meal added to the top of the powder charge and then the ball firmly seated on the powder/meal combo to raise the ball up to the edge of the cylinder.

Please do a search of Gatefeo's posts here on this message board for excellent descriptions of loading CapnBall revolvers.

[/b]

Did searches for Gatefeo, this is what I get:
 
No topics or posts met your search criteria

[oldelm]

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?p=66458&highlight=#66458"> Here's a post of Gatefeo's which Dakota Dan may be referring to.

[LCSNM]

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?p=66458&highlight=#66458"> Here's a post of Gatefeo's which Dakota Dan may be referring to.

Thanks oldelm.   A good read , having been given a 1851 Navy engraved nickel, ignorant about BP revolvers. Had it repaired and now ready to learn.

It helps to have the correct spellingl  GATOFEO   VS GATEFEO.

Now to reasearch the rest of his posts.

Thanks again!

[oldelm]

LCSNM.......howdy.

It helps to have the correct spellingl GATOFEO VS GATEFEO.

......whoops!  Sometimes my hands to follow my mind ,...LOL!

Hope you have good luck with your newly found '51. Is that a 5.5" barreled in .44 cal?

[LCSNM]

LCSNM.......howdy.

It helps to have the correct spellingl GATOFEO VS GATEFEO.

......whoops!  Sometimes my hands to follow my mind ,...LOL!

Hope you have good luck with your newly found '51. Is that a 5.5" barreled in .44 cal?

It is the 7.5 in barrel. Pretty close to the Top left on pg  315 of Cabelas Spring Catalong Edition I 2005 ...The cylinder is not gold plated and has the wood grips.  1851 Navy Engraved nickel/gold .44 Revolver.
NEEDED  Grip Screw, Spring Screw, Wedge, Trigger spring. It now operates correctly and ready to shoot.
Jim Traver @ Wilderness Country in Moriarty,NM checked it out for me and did the repairs. Extremely reasonable. The cylinder had been abused by ? dry firing and not indexing properly???. Jim says it is workable and safe to shoot, NOW... Bought all the necessary auxiliaries from him. No sense in having it and not learning to shoot it. Have to make a wedge driver, yet.
Learning all I can, before loading up for firing. I don't reload and haven't fooled  with black powder, before. Don't want to blow my self up .LOL
At 68, I still have some things I would like to do.

Anyone have some plans for making a revolver loading stand or where they sell them.  ?

[oldelm]

Sounds like you got some good, professional  work done on your gun, and now you're about ready to have some fun shootin it.

http://www.possibleshop.com/cap-ball-supplies.htm "> Here's a good place to pic up a loading lever.  I've done business with them , ...reliable & they ship real fast.

http://www.voy.com/60048/3/10784.html#post "> Here's a link to a thread in the archives at the VOY Blackpowder forum in which you'll find reference by a member there named Smokin-Gun, who makes his wedge driver with teflon scrub brush handles,...very hard & durable , but won't scratch gun surface. If the link drops you in at the bottom,..just scroll up to the top of the page and read from the beginning. You'll find alot of interesting & useful kitchen table gunsmithin info there, too.  Good bunch of folks there,....as well as here, too!

Good luck!  :grin:

[LCSNM]

Thanks oldelm!   Ordered the stand this morning. Good info on the wedge driver. Will try my hand at it.

Thanks again.

[Gatofeo]

Who the #$%@#*& misspelled my name? :biggun:

It's G-A-T-O, Spanish for "cat" and F-E-O, Spanish for "ugly."
Yep, my name means "ugly cat" in Spanish.  Long story there ... heh.

Um .. no harm done, LSMFT  ... er .. um ...  LCSNM   :toast: