Opinions On The 6.5mm Article In Outdoor Li

[Lawdog]

Would like to know what everyone thinks about the 6.5 mm Leopard(basically the 6.5-.300 WSM) that Jim Carmichel wrote about in Outdoor Life.  In the article Jim states, "Good wildcats tend to turn up in factory dress, so we’ll know in a year or so." in referance to wondering whether or not the 6.5mm Leopard could become a factory offering.  Do you think it could become a factory offering?  Sounds good to me as long as they keep it on the WSM case and not drop down to the WSSM like they did with the .25 WSSM.  Would have been a much better cartridge as a .25 WSM.  So, what is everyone's opinion?  Lawdog
 

[Graybeard]

You're kidding right?  :eek:  Or do you actually think we read Outdoor Life magazine?   Not in one whole buncha years for me.

[aulrich]

I read the article (online for free) I'd be on it like white on rice. I would even build it before it became factory. I had considered building a 6.5-284 for some reason I do like the 6.5 bore.  In a "Mountain rifle" type config it would be a fabulous rifle for humping up and down the coulees for mule deer, it would also handle elk or moose if loaded right.

[RaySendero]

Think it just may be the "best" of the WSMs but got a hunch it won't make factory loading.

[riddleofsteel]

I might be tempted to buy one. Since they wimped out of the .25 bore the 6.5mm would the only thing that would tempt me now. Of course it would have to push a 129 grain Hornady SP faster than 3000 FPS to be REALLY interesting.
But then everybody will be screaming OVERBORE and BARREL BURNER like they did with the .264 Win Mag.

I really do not know what adding 150 or 200 FPS to the 6.5-.284 or 6.5-06 performance would mean in the real world except a little flater trajectory at extreme distances and a lot more blood shot meat. But what the heck it is a 6.5 after all.

 :wink:

[beemanbeme]

1. I don't get Outdoor Life.

 2.  After Carmichael wrote an article that pretty much attributed all advances in rifles and optics to the bench rest shooters while trashing out anyone that posted in cyberspace as "cyberspace" experts that had little if any real knowledge, I stopped reading anything he's got to say.  

"we'll know in a couple of years"?  I think the .35 whelan; 25-06; 7-08; .260 and a host of others were around for a lot of years before they were legitimized.

[riddleofsteel]

legitimized.

A term that means a major rifle company makes a rifle so chambered and an ammo maker sells factory ammo.

That usually means "We think we can sell it" or "We think we smell money." It very rarely has anything to do with cartridge's performance or if it deserves to be a "legitimized" cartridge.

[Jaydub in Wi]

I don't think they will bring it out. They already have the 270 and 7mm wsm rounds that have a couple year head start. I wouldn't buy one as I already have a 264 win mag. I would prefer it to the 25 wssm though

[riddleofsteel]

As much as I love the .260/6.5mm bore, if I were a gun maker I would be extremely shy about any commercial cartridge in that size for the USA market. Face it, the 6.5mm is great but the American public is historically cool to the idea. Even the nearly ideal 6.5x55 is hardly ever chambered in the country. I really doubt the .260 will set the woods on fire either as much as it deserves to.
If there were a legitimized 6.5-06 I would buy one in a heart beat. Personally I think it is about as much powder capacity as a medium bore needs for average hunting. It shoots as flat as a 25-06 with much better bullet selection as far as weight and sectional density. But again, with the 25-06 on one side and the .270 on the other the American public would just yawn.
 :roll:

[Ramrod]

1. I don't get Outdoor Life.

 2.  After Carmichael wrote an article that pretty much attributed all advances in rifles and optics to the bench rest shooters while trashing out anyone that posted in cyberspace as "cyberspace" experts that had little if any real knowledge, I stopped reading anything he's got to say.  

"we'll know in a couple of years"?  I think the .35 whelan; 25-06; 7-08; .260 and a host of others were around for a lot of years before they were legitimized.

 Here are my thoughts, after  40 years of shooting.

1. I don't blame you, it's been crap ever since O'Conner kicked the bucket. It's worse crap now that all they do is pander to their advertisers.

 2. Here you are wrong, and Carmichael 1/2 is right. All "accuracy" advatages did come from the benchrest shooters. And the "cyberspace" experts are mostly full of crap. But most of the advanvces in hunting rifles were invented by Paul Mauser in 1898.

3. Carmichael is a great rifleman, a good writer, and a capable wildcatter. But none of his rounds have ever been picked up by the Big Three, and are not likely to ever be.

[kombi1976]

6.5 Leopard sounds wonderful but it's re-inventing the wheel unfortunately.
The 270 WSM is just so close in terms of bullet weights and after the pretty forgettable reaction of alot of shooters to the 6.5/284 I can't see that the Leopard would move anymore units than its predecessor.
Norma are the only guys chambering 6.5/284 and I don't see Winchester risking money on the Leopard after they have just fully released the WSM and WSSM range.
It's too much like a 270WSM in performance and too close to the 257WSSM is calibre to sell.
But that's just IMHO.
Stranger things have happened.
In all honesty I think the best moves to be made at the moment would be for Remington to put out a .338 SAUM or a .375 SAUM rather than either company trying to stick another cal into the smaller bore range.
But I digress.

[Lone Star]

Here are my thoughts after 40 years of hunting:

 2. Here you are wrong, and Carmichael 1/2 is right. All "accuracy" advatages did come from the benchrest shooters.

An awful lot of today's hunting rifle accuracy technology comes from highpower and long range shooters and 'smiths.  And most modern handgun accuracy technology came for silhouette shooters and 'smiths.  The BR guys have no monopoly on field-practical accuracy technology.

3. Carmichael is a great rifleman, a good writer, and a capable wildcatter. But none of his rounds have ever been picked up by the Big Three, and are not likely to ever be.

Here you are wrong, the 6.5 Panther was developed and promoted by Carmichael (and others, there is NO original cartridge design).  It is now called the .260 Remington.
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3623/is_200404/ai_n9407833
There is the same parallel story with Warren Page (.243 WCF) and Fred Huntington (.280 Rem).  Neither were the first to make these cartridges, just the ones who got the credit by promoting them to Remington and Winchester.

Gunwriting today is designed more to sell products than to inform readers.  There is a lot if good information in some writer's columns, but you generally have to pick through a lot of free advertising.  It isn't the writer's fault - there are just too many similar "hunting" magazines available today, and to survive they have to compete for the advertising dollars.  It is the editor's job to keep the advertisers happy by telling his writers what he wants to see in his magazine.  Back then the "Big Three" were the only commercial games in town (Outdoor Life, Sports Afield and Field and Stream) it was a lot easier.  But, you were stuck with the opinions of just three shooting writers.  I'm not that certain that, in general, we are worse off today.  We just have to read a lot more to form opinions.

[kombi1976]

It's interesting that alot of guys say that modern gun writers are manufacturer's cronies.
But the big question isn't really addressed.
Why do writers do reviews?
Is it to compare the product to everything that's ever been invented before or to judge it on it's own merits?
Few products(although there are notable examples) fail to deliver today in the world of CNC machining and super tight tolerances.
For sure, gun companies do seem to re-invent the wheel on many occasions but many of their new products are very good for the intended purposes even though established products are probably just as effective.
When this is the case should a reviewer trash a new product?
I'd say no.
There are so many variables in a person's motives when they choose a firearm and with these broad possibilities a product which seems like "gilding the lily" may well be exactly what is needed.
And if product after product turned up on your desk each month that performed in a pleasing manner during testing what is the reviewer supposed to write?

[huntsman]

In practical terms, there aren't many wildcat ideas that aren't a reinvention of the wheel anymore. Most of the bases are covered and then some in terms of delivering a certain size projectile on target at a desired velocity with an acceptable margin of error. Let's face it, at this point in the evolution of the firearm, pure physics prevents us from doing much more. Unless something truly radical in gun design comes along that changes the basic physics equation in delivering projectiles from firearms, nothing really earthshaking is going to come down the pike. It may be fun to play with a new toy, but the bottom line is we already have efficient killing machines for about any hunting situation imaginable. Any assertion that claims otherwise is simply a promotional gimmick.

[riddleofsteel]

In practical terms, there aren't many wildcat ideas that aren't a reinvention of the wheel anymore. Most of the bases are covered and then some in terms of delivering a certain size projectile on target at a desired velocity with an acceptable margin of error. Let's face it, at this point in the evolution of the firearm, pure physics prevents us from doing much more. Unless something truly radical in gun design comes along that changes the basic physics equation in delivering projectiles from firearms, nothing really earthshaking is going to come down the pike. It may be fun to play with a new toy, but the bottom line is we already have efficient killing machines for about any hunting situation imaginable. Any assertion that claims otherwise is simply a promotional gimmick.

Well said, can I get an AMEN from the congregation?

[kombi1976]

AMEN!!!

The real challenge to hunters today is to make the older technology work for them and I don't mean the designs of Paul Mauser and his ilk.
I mean honing the efficiency of stuff like black powder and bringing yourself to the point where you don't need a rifle that'll fling a 180gn projectile 300yds on a flat trajectory in order to bring down big game.
To not have to use a laser-like round but to get close enough to see the whites of their eyes.  :twisted:
Long distance shooting is a great skill and quite necessary in some applications but a nice close shot is very satisfying, especially when you had to crawl over 100yds of bracken and dirt to make it.  :wink:

[riddleofsteel]

I think that is why I enjoy our different hunting season here in NC so much. We hunt with bows, muzzloaders, and modern firearms. Most of my freezer was filled this year with a muzzleloader but the bow and the modern firearm also put in a couple. From a traditional bow at 20 yards to patch and ball at 75 yards to 129 grain SP trucking at 2950 FPS at 175 yards it's all what memories are made of.

In an article about the 25-06 Bill Jordon once wrote,
"I am one of those unreconstructed hunters that sets my scope 3" high at 100 yards and then shoots to point of aim out to 300 yards. I rarely shoot game at 300 yards, more like 200 max with these old eyes. When I game is futher away I stalk closer until I get a better shot. After all it is hunting, you know, that's part of the fun."

[Don Fischer]

Ramrod,
 As much as I find right with what you have to say I believe that the 260 Rem was one of Carmichael's. I think I read where he developed it for 1000yd shooting? Other than that, I think your right, The majority of advance's come from bench shooter's. Were it not for bench rest shooter's it's doubtful we'ed know what a bench rest is today, wouldn't think much about minute of angle rifles, probally wouldn't recognize all the thing's like bedding, action truing, handloading technique's ect. that go to turn the old Rem 721's, 722 and Win 54's and 70's into the rifle's they are today. Also if not for they're constant search for a one hole group, much as some of you hate to hear this, Savage would still be selling mod340's and compared to what they have now, they've come a long way. And why? Because a rather small group of shooter's have been trying to put 10 shot's in one hole since rifle's were invented. By the way, I am not now nor have I ever been a bench rest competitor, I'm not good enough.

[Ramrod]

When the .308 came out people started necking it up and down to every caliber we had. Carmichael may have been a fan of the 6.5-08, (.260 Rem.), but he certainly did not develop it.

[jh45gun]

I hardly buy any gun rags anymore I am so tired of only seeing mostly articles on the super duper short mags which I have no absolute interest in I just pass them up these days. These short mags will only interest a select few but that is all you see in the articles these days. Jim

[Lawdog]

I hardly buy any gun rags anymore I am so tired of only seeing mostly articles on the super duper short mags which I have no absolute interest in I just pass them up these days. These short mags will only interest a select few but that is all you see in the articles these days. Jim

How do you figure that the WSSM's "will only interest a select few" when they are one of the hottest selling cartridges today?  I had to wait almost 8 months for my .223 WSSM and 7 weeks for my .25 WSSM due to being back ordered.  Lawdog
 

[kombi1976]

The reality is that before any of the recently developed cartridges were brought out there were plenty of rounds that were suitable for the purposes that new cartridges have been designed for but Remington or Hornady or Ruger or Winchester can't get royalties for a European cartridge that's 50 years old and they also can't sell it to a largely close-minded US market.
Like most markets the firearms market has seldom had to do with practicality and efficiency and more with people's personal biases.
Since, with the notable exception of the 7mm Rem Mag, this has been against most cartridges measured in metric it's hardly surprising they're constantly re-inventing the wheel.
I might ask what the real need for all the short magnums is?
They do fit well in AR style rifles with the right sort of modification although I'm not sure an AR is the be-all-and-end-all of hunting rifles.
They've also been touted as excellent mountain cartridges as they fit in a short action but still have magnum power.
So they build light rifles with shorter barrels for these magnum power cartridges and lose the edge that the WSM would have over a cartridge like the 270 or 280 Rem.
I think the biggest irony is that we're debating the validity and popularity of WSMs and their ilk on a post about 6.5s which by and large are short action cartridges that perform generally well above their figures on paper.
And their recoil is relatively low to boot.
Sounds like a perfect mountain cartridge criteria for me.

[jh45gun]

I hardly buy any gun rags anymore I am so tired of only seeing mostly articles on the super duper short mags which I have no absolute interest in I just pass them up these days. These short mags will only interest a select few but that is all you see in the articles these days. Jim

How do you figure that the WSSM's "will only interest a select few" when they are one of the hottest selling cartridges today?  I had to wait almost 8 months for my .223 WSSM and 7 weeks for my .25 WSSM due to being back ordered.  Lawdog
 

Lawdog my post was not intended to bash the cartridges or the guys that own them. I had a NEF 223 back ordered once for 6 months just because it is backordered only means the company can only make them so fast and while they may be somewhat popular does not mean every one wants one. When the 17 HMR's  came out on the rack the local gun shop could not keep one on the shelf now they got some there that I know have been there 6 months yet at first it looked like every one wanted one (Except me ) To be honest I do not know anyone who has one of the shortmags yet, yea the local gun shop sells a few I suppose it depends on the hunting you do also. I am not saying there is anything wrong with them I just get tired of the gun mags going in spurts where they all write about the same things. A few years ago all it was was 45 acp which is a fine cartridge and a lot of good guns are made for it but I got tired also of that in every issue. I am just saying these guys get in ruts and it gets boring. Just cause I have no interest in one means it is a bad deal I just have no interest. I have more fun shooting the old cartridges then these new ones. As for the select few comment I stand on it as these will not appeal to every one as some folks either like what they represent or they do not. If you like them great and along with every one else who has them. The only mag I have ever gotten excited about is the 22 mag for centerfires any of my older 100 year old vintage cartridges ( from 6.5 to 45/70 ) and my 308 will do what I want and need them to. For those who want something different go for it but I still say it is a select market. Jim

[jh45gun]

I agree with you Kombi. Some of those cartridges you are talking about are 100 years old and still do a darn fine job. This just came to mind You got to figure that the gun companies want to push the mags for one reason the faster bullets wear out bores a lot faster either meaning a rebarrel job or a new gun so it is good business for them. Nothing wrong with that and some folks would never wear out one if they only hunt with them and others who like to shoot though may go through several. Like I said in the previous post to Lawdog I do not care what anyone shoots if you like it go for it. I just am taking a different path than buying the new kids on the block I prefer to shoot the older guns and cartridges. Not sure about the royalty issue as if there is enough interest the cartridges will be sold by US cartridge companies. The 6.5 Swede and 7mm and 8mm mauser are loaded for the US market along with the 7.62x39. Winchester is selling 762x54 ( S&B) though under their brand. Same with the guns US companies are selling some what limited runs of guns that shoot these cartridges. Ruger sells the Mini 30 in 762x39 and others have had limited runs in 7mm and 6.5 Swede. No such luck for the 8mm and 762x54 though thankfully lots of milsurps out there to play with. Jim

[kombi1976]

The 6.5 Swede and 7mm and 8mm mauser are loaded for the US market along with the 7.62x39. Winchester is selling 762x54 ( S&B) though under their brand. Same with the guns US companies are selling some what limited runs of guns that shoot these cartridges. Ruger sells the Mini 30 in 762x39 and others have had limited runs in 7mm and 6.5 Swede. No such luck for the 8mm and 762x54 though thankfully lots of milsurps out there to play with. Jim

Mmmm, now you're setting up my personal soap box.
6.5x55 isn't dead yet but they're slowly replacing it with .260 Rem, although I'm mystifyed as to why this is the case.
If the USA wasn't so litigious and they made up loads like Norma and Sako do there'd be no need to replace it.
The only manufacturer in the USA that chambers 7x57 is Ruger(as far as I know) and they make it in their M77 MkII and in 2 models of the No.1 but I think they may've pulled it from the M77 line late last year.
Few European companies chamber it these days too.
It's slowly being replaced by 7mm-08 but it'll out perform the '08 with suitable loads and deals with heavy projectiles far better but it's being emasculated by the US ammo companies.
As for 7.62x39, it really only got off the ground because it was a AK and SKS round.
A 30-30 bolt gun or single shot with spitzer loads will blow a '39 into the weeds and still have low recoil.
Geez, even a lever with flat noses will.
Not that you could really convince high powered bolt gun shooters to buy a 30-30 or lever gun fans that their treasured 30-30 is a cracker of a round in one of those new fangled bolt actions.  :?
7.62x54R I believe while a functional and decent cartridge is suffering the same fate as the .303 Brit for the same reasons.
The 8x57JS has NEVER had the respect it deserves in the USA purely because there was presumption made that people wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a 88 Mauser and a 98.
The Europeans regularly chamber it along with other more unusual rounds like 7x64, 9.3x57 & 9.3x62.
I will state now that these are my opinions, particularly regarding the 2 Russian rounds.
If it works for you then good.  :wink:

[Lawdog]

kombi1976,

6.5x55 isn't dead yet but they're slowly replacing it with .260 Rem

Actually the 6.5mm Swede is still outselling the .260 Remington.  There are more loads available for the Swede than for the Remington.  In fact Remington has cut back on the number of loads they turn out for the .260.  From what I see it's the .260 Remington that may end up on the DOA list.  The 'old' Swede will be around for a long time.  Lawdog
 

[Lawdog]

I hardly buy any gun rags anymore I am so tired of only seeing mostly articles on the super duper short mags which I have no absolute interest in I just pass them up these days. These short mags will only interest a select few but that is all you see in the articles these days. Jim

How do you figure that the WSSM's "will only interest a select few" when they are one of the hottest selling cartridges today?  I had to wait almost 8 months for my .223 WSSM and 7 weeks for my .25 WSSM due to being back ordered.  Lawdog
 

Lawdog my post was not intended to bash the cartridges or the guys that own them. I had a NEF 223 back ordered once for 6 months just because it is backordered only means the company can only make them so fast and while they may be somewhat popular does not mean every one wants one. When the 17 HMR's  came out on the rack the local gun shop could not keep one on the shelf now they got some there that I know have been there 6 months yet at first it looked like every one wanted one (Except me ) To be honest I do not know anyone who has one of the shortmags yet, yea the local gun shop sells a few I suppose it depends on the hunting you do also. I am not saying there is anything wrong with them I just get tired of the gun mags going in spurts where they all write about the same things. A few years ago all it was was 45 acp which is a fine cartridge and a lot of good guns are made for it but I got tired also of that in every issue. I am just saying these guys get in ruts and it gets boring. Just cause I have no interest in one means it is a bad deal I just have no interest. I have more fun shooting the old cartridges then these new ones. As for the select few comment I stand on it as these will not appeal to every one as some folks either like what they represent or they do not. If you like them great and along with every one else who has them. The only mag I have ever gotten excited about is the 22 mag for centerfires any of my older 100 year old vintage cartridges ( from 6.5 to 45/70 ) and my 308 will do what I want and need them to. For those who want something different go for it but I still say it is a select market. Jim

The reason I had to wait for my WSSM's(both M70 Coyotes) were due to Winchester being back logged with orders.  True the type of hunting one does or the type of country hunted dictates what type of cartridge one uses.  Heavy brush or timber country means shorter range cartridges but hunting the open country where shots can range out to the limits of the shooter, faster/flatter shooting cartridges(magnum country as some call it) are the norm.  Out West the WSM and WSSM are selling very well.  Forget what they say in the “gun rags” as they just placate their sponsors anyway.  Lawdog
 

[kombi1976]

kombi1976,

6.5x55 isn't dead yet but they're slowly replacing it with .260 Rem

Actually the 6.5mm Swede is still outselling the .260 Remington.  There are more loads available for the Swede than for the Remington.  In fact Remington has cut back on the number of loads they turn out for the .260.  From what I see it's the .260 Remington that may end up on the DOA list.  The 'old' Swede will be around for a long time.  Lawdog
 

I agree entirely.
Perhaps I should have phrased it "they're slowly trying to replace it with .260 Rem."
It's just that everytime a see a new rifle released it seems far more likely that the manufacturer will have it in .260 than 6.5x55.
I really don't get the fascination with up and down-sizing the 308 case.
Sure, it's a good round and it's produced some success stories but it has definite limits and I also think that shorts actions, in reality, don't mean jack in cycling time unless all you do is practise thumping off shots at speed.
They only give you a few inches more to play with in overall length.
Perhaps that's important to some people but I'd sooner drag a slightly longer rifle up a hill if it makes the difference.
Geez, I'm really opinionated, aren't I!!??  :roll:
Oh, well, my wife tells me all the time to take a pill  

[jh45gun]

One thing about a new cartridge you never know if it will catch on or not so I normally am hesitant to try something new. Expecially when I have so many older guns ( Milsurp) that are chambered for such good cartridges. You would have thought with the popularity of the 30/30 lever guns that the 307 and 356 and 375 Winchester would have caught on and sold well instead all three are doomed for obsolence. Jim

[Ramrod]

You would have thought with the popularity of the 30/30 lever guns that the 307 and 356 and 375 Winchester would have caught on and sold well instead all three are doomed for obsolence. Jim

They were doomed before they started. As woods guns go, the .30-30 and the .35 Rem. pretty much have it all covered. This 6.5 thing is about the same. The folks buying guns are going to go bigger, .270, .280, or .30 caliber, or they are going to go smaller, .25 or .243.  The 6.5s don't offer any improvement over what we already have now. Even though I believe that the .260 Rem is probably the best all around whitetail caliber ever, it just ain't gonna be with us much longer.