Author Topic: Shotgun Technique is gonna have to change (Read 894 times)

Cheyenne Ranger · « **on:** February 08, 2003, 06:33:03 AM »

Was out last Thursday night trying some reloads for my Win 97. Now you have to remember I'm going for light loads. Using Red Dot and 7/8 of shot I used the factory shells and # 26, 24, 23 and 21 powder bushings. Did notice a bit of less recoil with the 21 bushing. All seemed to be the same or less than the factory. (WinAA lights)
Did this at the USPSA shoot and when I came up for my last stage I barely could raise my right arm--shoulder hurt so much!
At midnight I was at the ER getting my dislocated shoulder reset. The recoil had knocked the humerus out of socket.
If you ever had a shoulder re-located you know that the pain kinda gets your attention.
So, I now have to figure out how to shoot the shotgun without putting it up to my shoulder. Guess under the arm or left handed is beginning to look like the way to go.
CR

Cuts Crooked · « **Reply #1 on:** February 08, 2003, 07:08:59 AM »

Quote

At midnight I was at the ER getting my dislocated shoulder reset. The recoil had knocked the humerus out of socket.

ACK!!! :eek: ACK!!!

That's enuff!

One word........PAST........get one!

Greybeard · « **Reply #2 on:** February 08, 2003, 08:54:17 AM »

Don't understand how recoil at that light a level could dislocate a shoulder but I sure feel your pain. I have bursitis in my right shoulder do badly that I've just about had to give up shooting anything with noticeable recoil.

I'm thinking that if you use open chokes at the ranges ya'll have told me the targets are engaged you should be able to do OK from the hip. If you practice you'd be amazed at how well you can shoot from the hip. I've known folks who on a skeet range could break 70% or so from the hip. One guy I used to shoot with and against in money shoots was the darnest I've seen at it. He shot an old Remington Model 58 and he could turn it upside down and shoot from the hip and break three targets thrown from the trap at the same time more often than not.

Give it some practice and you should do well from the hip. Place the side of stock against the side of your hip. Swivel the body to point. It can work well.

GB

Dutch Canyon Red · « **Reply #3 on:** February 08, 2003, 09:29:21 AM »

Cheyenne Ranger,
The trick to shooting from the hip is to use your front sight. You will have to practice to get it down and barrel length makes a difference but here is how it goes. Clamp the shotgun butt to your hip bone with your elbow. make sure it is in the same place for every shot. Now, stand with your feet slightly wider than shoulder width apart and square to the target. Your knees are slightly bent. With your upper body leaning just a little forward, Look down across the bead at the ground and adjust the way the shotgun is pointed until the spot your looking at is at the center of the target and about 2 feet below the point you want to impact. Let 'er rip and note where the shot impacts. You may have to adjust up or down according to your barrel length and distance to the target. Once you have figured out your aiming point, you will be able to hit with deadly accuracy from the hip. Since most shotgun targets in a CAS match are at about the same distance and are taller than they are wide, you won't have too much of an adjustment to make from target to target, once you have the amount of hold under figured out for your particular barrel length.

Cheyenne Ranger · « **Reply #4 on:** February 08, 2003, 10:25:36 AM »

Thanks Dutch, that was what I was thinking but nice to have all the details worked out by someone else.
Didn't mention that I had rotator culf surgery on the shoulder years ago and then something "tore loose" in the upper arm/shoulder. Doc said to live with it as he couldn't reattach whatever it was.
I'm surprised too that it went out but don't want to revisit it any time soon. Might have been a freak accident but now that all the ligaments and tendons are streached/torn it will be a goodly while till they approach normal.
Can't see quitting CAS just cause my arm is 4" shorter :grin:
It's been about 36 hours to the minute since the doc "reduced" it back in and it's still pretty sore. No black and blue marks so hope I can just work on my strength and get back to the fun.
CR

Holiday · « **Reply #5 on:** February 08, 2003, 12:45:41 PM »

Well, shooting from the hip certainly get ya some style points! What about clamping the stock under your arm pit and shooting? Its not as accurate as from the shoulder, but it would seem to me that you could aim a little better than from the hip. It should help on the recoil too.

Jose Grande · « **Reply #6 on:** February 08, 2003, 03:54:19 PM »

Sorry about that shoulder!! I have Bursitis in my right shoulder & can relate a little. Sure hope yuh get better soon. :grin:

Dutch Canyon Red · « **Reply #7 on:** February 08, 2003, 08:17:27 PM »

Cheyenne Ranger,
You can read up on some other non traditional shotgun techniques that might help your sore shoulder in "Stressfire II, Advanced Combat Shotgun" by Massad Ayoob. Take a look at the High Tuck and Pec-Vest positions in chapter 16.
Now, about that shoulder... the muscles that make up the rotator cuff can be strengthened with a simple exercise.... after they have healed from the current injury. Take a 5 foot length of 1/4" surgical tubing and stand on one end with the foot that is on the same side as the injured shoulder. Grab the tubing in your hand and extend the hand from hanging straight down to straight out from the shoulder. Adjust the length of the tubing so that the resistance felt is very light. These are small muscles and don't need to be overworked.... all you are trying to do is make them tougher. You should do sets of 15 to 20 repetitions. after each set, do a set of the same excercise bringing the hand up to extend out in front of your body... then another set to the side etc. Stop if you feel any pain. You should feel that the muscles are tired after 3 sets in each direction but no pain. It is important to recover fully between workouts... at least 2 days. Progress will be slow because you are not working with large muscles but you will notice improvement in about 6 weeks if you stick to a schedule. It is important not to do these exercises until your current injury is healed and you might want to discuss it with your sawbones first. I got this from a professional trainer who was hired by my employer to help reduce workplace injuries. I had a long time problem with rotator cuff pain and used these excercises to enable me to shoot a lot of shotgun without further problems.

Cheyenne Ranger · « **Reply #8 on:** February 09, 2003, 06:39:47 AM »

Thanks Dutch,
Will definitely start with these as soon I am better (healed). Hate to think that my shotgun days are over.
Also, will be trying different ways to hold the scattergun other than in my shoulder. Even considered trying it left-handed :eek: but afraid that the RO and rest of the posse would be heading for the hills.
Could always take the time penalities but would hate to have people think I'm "gaming" CAS.
Just ordered a bunch of powder bushings for my MEC from Midway. The chart says #26 is equal to factory using Red Dot (7/8 oz shot in Win AA hulls). Did load some using #21 and could tell a difference. Today ordered from 7--19. Will try them all to see which one will be what I'm looking for.

Pecos Clyde · « **Reply #9 on:** February 10, 2003, 06:09:17 AM »

Heyya Cheyenne

Do't be too hasty in dismissing the left handed change. Man, I am very sorry to hear about your right shoulder. That e-mail was a gruesome read for us all. It may sound dumb when you first read it but.....have you given any thought to switching over to southpaw with the long guns?

Accurate hip, or point shootin the shotgun without benefit of shouldering the weapon is certainly possible. Yet, if you invested that same amount of time to try converting to shooting the shotgun left handed you would have the luxury of using the one good shoulder you have left. (I have seen speed loading/shooting demonstrations by left handed 97 shooters that were pretty dang impressive)

Just a thought....I don't envy you regarding the shoulder problem.....I am proud of you for attempting to find a way to overcome the malady and continue shootin CAS. The Cowboy Way, ya gotta love it!

Cheyenne Ranger · « **Reply #10 on:** February 10, 2003, 06:13:57 AM »

Pecos,
Going to try both the hip shooting and the left-handed. Figure worst that will happen is I'll get to shoot up some ammo :grin:
Going today in about 3 hours to see what the doc says. Keep ya'll posted
CR

Cheyenne Ranger · « **Reply #11 on:** February 10, 2003, 12:29:43 PM »

Doc says I need an MRI so looks like I get to wait awhile until I know the final outcome of all of this. And the next match is less than two weeks off! :cry:

Dutch Canyon Red · « **Reply #12 on:** February 10, 2003, 02:43:04 PM »

Cheyenne Ranger,
Learning to shoot your long guns left handed is a good idea. You never know when having this skill in yer possibles bag will come in handy. It feels real wierd at first but with practice you can get quite good at it. You will have to use the "wrong" eye but it will help to close the right eye at first. Like any other new shooting skill, go slow enough to make the hits at first and let the speed increase when it's time. A couple of reasons you might want to shoot left handed are:
1, if you're injured.
2, folks are shooting at you, there is hard cover that requires that you shoot around the left side of it... and you don't want to get injured.

There's probably more reasons but those two were enough to get me to learn to shoot everything with both hands. One word of caution... If you shoot an AR-15 lefty, you will have a pronounced black smudge on your right cheek after about fifty rounds.... in some circles, this is seen as a badge of honor. :lol:

Shootin' Carts Jimmy · « **Reply #13 on:** February 11, 2003, 11:11:35 AM »

Sure am sorry to hear about your shoulder. Hope you heal up quick.

At our monthly shoots, the shotgun targets are usually the last in most stages. If I miss too many pistol or rifle targets, I get to have fun with my shotgun! Shooting from the hip is a blast, but I find shooting from the waist, with the stock along side my lower ribs is more fun and easier on my body. If you have strong wrists and keep your elbows firm, but not stiff, you can absorb some of the recoil by letting the gun kick back a few inches. You will get style points, even if you don't hit the steel !

Good luck pard.

ButlerFord45 · « **Reply #14 on:** February 14, 2003, 12:15:18 PM »

How's the sholder doin'? When's the MRI? You been practcing South Paw Shotgunnin'?
I been thinkin', and most everyone knows that's a dangerous thing!
Isn't hip shooting from the strong side going to put a lot of stress on the muscles around the rotator cuff? In particular the muscle on the top front of the sholder? Isn't that the Deltoid? I can't help but believe your going to be better off shooting "southern style"

Cheyenne Ranger · « **Reply #15 on:** February 15, 2003, 04:53:02 AM »

MRI was put off till next week. Shoulder feels pretty good, though I haven't done anything really with it. Thought about the recoil question, too. Will try several methods and see which does the least damage.
My whole check is one yellow mass of brusing. You can see where the blood has pooled at the base of my sterum. Upper arm, on the inside, is a lovely shade of maroon all the way down to the elbow. Grossed out all the students in class this week. :grin:
Was going to start trying to shoot single handedly with the six-guns but will need the support of the left hand--so don't have to change this right now.
Did cast, size and lube about 35 lbs of 200 and 250 gr .45 bullets. Had to do something with my time
thanks for checking
CR

Fred · « **Reply #16 on:** February 15, 2003, 08:28:14 AM »

I wounder if your'er cycling that pump so fast and pulling the trigger before the stock is set firmly in the shoulder, it might take an observer to notice as the shooter is pretty busy with shooting fast.

With a side by side the butt is firmly in place and stays there as you just have to pull the triggers

FRED>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Cheyenne Ranger · « **Reply #17 on:** February 16, 2003, 03:21:33 AM »

Hey Fred,
If you ever have seen me shoot you would know that the word "fast" is something people don't use to describe my style :grin:
That said I do know it wasn't seated tight on all of the shots. Thanks for the heads-up

Fred · « **Reply #18 on:** February 16, 2003, 07:09:37 AM »

Cheyenne like your saying Look good shoot fast if you don't hit them you might scare them to death, was sorta my philosophy when I was a police officer until I retired. I could shoot fairly well with the S&W 45 not nearly as well with the S&W hi capicity 9mm(grips to fat) but my theory was make 'em duct and nervous while I got to cover(14 rather than 8

I have a hammer,pump Marlin with a barrell so long you can push most SASS shotugun range targets over with, kicks like an over sized mule thats why I use the SBS with ultra lite AA's

FRED.......................