Where are the Winchester rifles made?

[Muskie Hunter]

I have been jumping around some forums and I am coming across discussions on where the winchesters are made.Some say they are made here in the U.S and some say that they are made out of country,and yet there are those that say that the parts are made out of country and the rifle is assembled here.What's the truth?Does anybody know?

[Muskie Hunter]

When I posted this question,I was not trying to be funny or go against anybody's grain.I am surprised though,that nobody knows the answer to this question on the Winchester forum. :roll:

[Somerled]

That may be a tough question to answer. I know Winchester is owned by the Herstal Group (FN Herstal) along with Browning North America. FN owns facilities all over the globe.

http://www.fnherstal.com/html/Index.htm

The Winchester service center is in Arnold, MO. It has a plant in New Haven, CT.

Winchester customer service may be able to tell you.

(800) 333-3288 or (801) 876-2711

[Ramrod]

I held off responding because alot of Winchester bashing goes on here on GB's site by "patriotic" types. And, I'm getting tired of trying to explain this to the internet rumor-repeaters. But what the heck, sometimes a voice in the wilderness gets heard.
Here is a page from the Winchester website, that might help.
http://www.usracmfg.com/jobs.htm

So when you folks want to screw the French by not buying Winchester, remember, these are Americans you are putting out of work.

[JPSaxMan]

I don't understand what exactly you're relating to Ramrod... :? . Please enlighten me.

[Muskie Hunter]

Thanks guys for your help.I appologize for asking what I thought was a lagit question.I thought I would receive a simple answer without getting things all riled up.I know that the shotguns might be made elsewhere but I wasn't sure about the rifles.And yes,I am a so called patriotic type having serverd two tours in combat in Viet Nam and getting my butt full of shapnel and then coming home only to be called a baby killer ,spit at and tommatoes throwed at me when I arrived in California on my return.This is my problem though and no body elses.All I want to do is buy a rifle of my liking and asking questions and doing reserch before I lay down my hard earned american money.Thankyou.

[savageT]

Muskie Hunter,
You ask a legitimate question......but today sadly, it's like asking where do I go to buy American anything ...tv's, radios, shirts, suits, heck even automobiles from the Big Three are using a great deal of off-shore and Canadian made components.  Even the steel isn't American (or at least the finished product).  We are in a global community like it or not, that's the fact Jack!


Jim

[Ramrod]

Fish, I'm really commenting on things I read on some of the other forums here. Some guys make statements like "I won't buy a Winchester because they are owned by the French!" They forget that alot of the folks in New Haven have sons and daughters fighting in Iraq.
Muskie Hunter, I didn't mean to say there is anything wrong with being patrioic. I put the word in "quotes" because some folks are sort of hypocritical about it.

[Somerled]

Ramrod, what I posted are facts. They may not be all the facts. Have you personally been in the Winchester plant in New Haven to see all those barrels turned out, actions forged, stocks crafted out of resin/wood, etc. In short is every process that goes into making every Winchester firearm done in that sole plant in New Haven? If you have been there, add some facts. But don't assume I am trying to put Americans out of work. I grew up in a union household.

The last "U.S. made" General Motors product I owned, was made mostly in Brazil. It had some parts from Mexico and probably some other nations I didn't catch. It was only assembled in the U.S.

Ramrod, I went to that link. It said: "There are no openings at this time." Why it says that, I don't know exactly. I don't have enough facts to know. Maybe it is us "folks want to screw the French", maybe it is because the Herstal Group (Belgium not France) is cutting labor costs by having a lot of the work done offshore or maybe it is for some other reason. Maybe you can call those customer service numbers and enlighten us further.

I've bought Japanese and Belgian-made Brownings, Winchesters with "New Haven" stamped on the barrel, Remingtons, Rugers, Colts, Smith & Wessons, FN Highpowers assembled in Portugal, a $2,000 Shiloh Sharps put together in Big Timber, MT, and some firearms from Brazil and all sorts of stuff made God only knows where from Americans trying to feed their families. I suspect you have as well.

Have a great day.

[JPSaxMan]

I never knew that Ramrod. Hadn't the slightest clue.

My father used to work for a parts store. This was eons ago. Guy came in looking for a strut mount (I think?)...guy said to him, "Let me see where it's made". Sure enough, box said, "Made in China". Guy glared at him and said, "I won't buy it!" But sad truth is, as SavageT mentioned, this country runs off the products from other ones. So we might as well buy non-American. We won't be doin any good by not.  

[Kurt]

I just picked up a 94 win friday and the hangin tag said "MADE IN USA"

[JPSaxMan]

:?

[Ramrod]

I bought a new .300 Win. Mag. Model 70 with synthetic stock on clearance at Wall-Mart today. Marked down to $300. and had a Simmons 3x9 scope mounted on it. I don't really need it, but at that price who could resist. (I'll probably trade it.)
There was a little note inside the box, here is what it had to say.

Congratulations, you've just bought a very fine Winchester gun.
You'll be pleased with the quality built into it.
 Every effort has been made in our manufacturing process to give
you the extra value derived from more-than-100 years of
experience in making fine WINCHESTER hunting guns in the
same New Haven, Connecticut, USA Plant. In packing this new
Winchester gun, I have looked it over carefully and made sure that
all instruction materials, accessories, and literature are included.
Good hunting!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                               Kevin Howard                                      

The box also bears the I.A.M. (Machinist Union) Logo.
Nuff said.


Of course the scope is made in China.

[Muskie Hunter]

Thanks a lot for your feed backs on my question.It is good to know that the quality is still there with Winshester rifles.I have an older push feed Featherweight 30-06,that I wouldn't trade or sell for the world, but am considering a 338 win mag. in Winchester version also.I'm a fan of all rifles as I have Remington's too.

[JPSaxMan]

I have Remington's too.

   :agree:.  

[Somerled]

I know there was a new plant built across Winchester Ave. from the original plant in New Haven in 1994. U.S Repeating Arms invested in some ECM units and some other advances. I suspect machinists toil away there quite regularly.

Still, Muskie Hunter's original questions, "What's the truth? Does anybody know?" hasn't been answered by anyone's post so far. I'd add another one: Is your particular Winchester firearm, rifle or shotgun, and all its subcomponents completely fitted, forged, polished, blued, drilled, tapped, carved, stamped, engraved, etc., in the U.S.? For that matter, is any firearm any more?

Despite what Ramrod may insist, that stab at responding to Muskie Hunter's unanswered question was not fueled by blind "patriotism", hatred of "the French" or any people toiling away in other nations, or some careless attempt to put hard working people in New Haven out of work. Ramrod, if I am such a rumor pusher, why do I own Winchesters?

I have my mind set on buying another Model 70 Featherweight!

There are two I.A.M. locals in New Haven. They are:

CC-609 New Haven, CT
OFFICE: 344 Winchester Ave., New Haven, CT 06511-1918
MEETS: Science Park Building #5, Winchester Ave., 4th Sun., 10:00 AM
DL-26 VP-Eastern PH:(203)562-2683
PR-David White Jr,
RS-Paula Y. Leake,
FS-Michael Caponera

CC-966 New Haven, CT
MEETS: Rte. 80, East Haven, CT., 3rd Sun., 10:00 AM
DL-26 VP-Eastern
PR-Martin Wigglesworth,
RS-Mary A. Gilliard,
ST-Danita Pugh

Muskie Hunter, maybe they can answer your questions.

[Ramrod]

Somerled, I never directed any of my posts towards you, so why are you so defensive? Sounds like you are not sure of your "facts". Besides, there are not many companies left in any industry that make all their parts in house.
P.S. What is an "ECM"? I know a thing or two about modern machinery, but this is a new one to me.

[JPSaxMan]

ECM...only type I know of is the one used by fighter pilots as a countermeasure against air-to-air missles. But I don't think that has relation here.  :?

[Somerled]

Ramrod, thanks for the "constructive criticism" you've offered. I made an error. That acronymn should have been typed, "EDM". It stands for "Electrical Discharge Machine".

Ramrod, I view myself as being more offensive than defensive. It seems as if you were hovering over Muskie Hunter's unanswered post almost as if you have been appointed the "constructive criticism" czar.

Muskie Hunter launched this subject Feb. 23. Two days later, he made another post. I told him his questions would prove difficult to answer. I told him Winchester/U.S. Repeating Arms was owned by the Herstal Group, which owns manufacturing facilities all over the world. I offered some contact information so he could do his own research.

Fifty minutes later, you made the next post and typed, "I held off responding because alot of Winchester bashing goes on here on GB's site by "patriotic" types. And, I'm getting tired of trying to explain this to the internet rumor-repeaters. But what the heck, sometimes a voice in the wilderness gets heard."

The next post I made regarding this subject took place right after I read your comments regarding a 15-year-old West Virginia boy's use of a poll to help pick a deer rifle. You also berated him about his poor spelling. Several others, including you, questioned his wisdom, judgment, experience and truthfulness.

So I decided to treat you as offensively as you treated the kid.

Nuff said.

[Graybeard]

Nuff said.

Actually it isn't, guess I best have my say too. Bashing or making personal attacks is never OK here. Just because you saw someone else do it doesn't not give you carte blanche to do same. It is in fact the best way to get an account deactivated.

Now for sure it is likely me that was being spoken on in some of this. I'm not exactly known as a Winchester fan, I hate France and all it stands for. And to be truthful was fairly certain most of the Winchester line if not all of it was made out of country. I still am not sure that's wrong. Does anyone actually KNOW which are made in country and/or if all are?

Once when there still was a Winchester Arms Co. and they actually made guns some were made here and some in Japan. I have been wrong before and might be now but I was thinking I remembered the story right after Winchester sold out to US Repeating Arms that all were then being made out of country. But that was a long time ago and I do have bouts of CRS.

[Somerled]

Graybeard, that "Nuff said" in that last post of mine should have been in quotes.

You are right. I've read the rules. It is a family-oriented site. What I did was mean and offensive.

I'll do better. Thanks for giving us the opportunity to share and encourage shooters like that young man in West Virginia. He probably started carrying a rifle at age 4 if he is like the members of my family that came out west from there. We need to encourage fellows like that if our proud hunting and shooting traditions are going to continue.

The Herstal Group, headquarted in Belgium, has about 4,000 employees worldwide. It claims to have about 800 employees in the United States. It also has the Columbia, SC, plant that produces M16A2s and A4s and M249 SAWs for the U.S. military.

[Graybeard]

The Herstal Group

That name seems to keep popping up in conjunction with discussions of Winchester. Educate me some more.

Now realize I do not own any Winchester guns and have owned very few so I don't really follow them. But the last I recall an outfit named GIAT which was in fact the French government owned both Winchester and Browning. Has this changed? Is Herstal a part of GIAT or the other way around? Has CRS creeped up on me again?

[Somerled]

Graybeard,

GIAT is the nationalized French arms manufacturer and munitions maker. The Herstal Group is basically the old Belgian FN. It owns U.S. Repeating Arms, the FN plant in South Carolina, a Japanese firearms manufacturing facility, and some other plants I'm not certain of and controls Browning International and Browning North America. It diversified into sporting firearms as to not rely so heavily on income from arms sales to foreign governments.

The Herstal Group does make some 12.7mm turrets for GIAT's VPC Command Post vehicles for armored infantry units. GIAT also has contracted a U.S. firm, United Defense, to help produce GIAT's answer to the Paladin 155mm self-propelled howitzer, the CAESAR. But the French military is required by those French socialist lawmakers to use GIAT arms and muntions exclusively. Therefore, the Herstal Group and any other arms manufacturer is blocked from competing with GIAT in France.

I have no idea how the Herstal Group is institutionally owned and controlled. Belgian and French businesses, banks and manufacturing concerns are often linked together. So it may be controlled by French interests in part.

[Graybeard]

Where do you find this information listed?

Back when Winchester and Browning went under the same corporate ownership the magazines clearly said GIAT owned both. FN and Browning split at that time to the best of my recollection.

I'd like to find some definitive source information on this. If I'm wrong about the current ownership of the two companies I'd like to know it for certain. But I've seen nothing authoratative to substantiate it. In fact your comments here are the first I've seen anywhere to say anyone but GIAT owns both and that FN is now separate and distinct from Browning to whom they've always before been tied at the hip.

Have you seen this information post on the website of any of the parties under discussion?

[Graybeard]

This took some doing but I finally tracked it down. I was correct. Winchester and Browning were NOT are in fact owned by GIAT of France ie, the French government.


Here are the quotes from the websites:

GIAT of France, in turn, also maintained its small arms production facility at Versailles-Sartory outside Paris after it had acquired the Belgian small arms producer FN-Herstal.[47]

[47]  Gander and Hoggs 1995, pp. 148f. However, GIAT sold FN-Herstal in 1997.

Now I guess the question is who currently owns FN-Herstal? That's a job for another night. Then again maybe not. Check this:

Ownership of the company has changed several times since USRA purchased it in 1981. Former owners include the French government (GIAT) and the F.N. Herstal Group, a Belgian firm. The government of Wallonia, Belgium is the current owner after purchasing the F.N. Herstal Group last year for $303 million.

Published Friday, November 13, 1998


But for now I'll quit saying they are owned by the French as it appears that's no longer correct.

[jvs]

If the above is true, I fail to see what bonus they get out of keeping the U.S. Repeating Arms name on the rifles.  

Prior to USRA, Winchester was the name of a company not just the brand name it is now.  The Belgians could have been a little more imaginative.  The positive side of it is that the Belgians may be responsible for a better quality firearm.

As for the French....With Germany and Russia to the East and the Atlantic Ocean to the West, they probably have to look big and nasty.......before they raise the white flag.   Things may get ugly in the EU, and France has very little to say about it, except for a little Sabre rattling.  Deep down inside they know it too.

Always keep one thing in mind..... Nobody kisses butt better than the French when they need something.  Their time will come.

[Ramrod]

"Winchester" has been a brand name, not a "company" for decades. U.S.R.A.C is using the name under license from the Olin Corporation. The first "Winchester"company, like many American gun companies, went through several bankrupcies and re-orginizations. American buissnes has always depended on "Branding", from sneakers to cars. Most consumers could care less who owns the company.
But the argument here is wether or not Winchesters are made in the U.S.A. The answer is yes, they are.

[Somerled]

Graybeard, there are so many crooks ( both types ) and forks in world trade. One of those crooks is "Made in the USA" claims. No one really understands it except some attorneys specializing in international trade and the corporations who bought the loopholes.

World trade changes overnight. What one reads in Hoover's, corporate reports, magazines, papers, the Wall Street Journal, or whereever may be invalidated by change between the time the reports are transmitted and the time one reads them. The information may have not been accurate in the first place. The Belgians and the French have always had extremely close ties. The French treat Belgium as almost another province at times. FN Herstal was losing so much money the Belgian government took steps to save it. It was a matter of national security. The French has also protected its arms industry.

The French and Belgians are also obscure when it comes to their involvement in the arms business because it isn't politically correct amongst their populace. Their politicians can say, "Bush and the U.S. are war mongers, not us."

Third World arms deals: I suspect FN had problems getting it money. A lot of those countries that once looked to the West for arms now build their own plants. And why buy anything when there's a glut of old Communist block arms floating around? HK was also cutting into FN's market share.

So those are some of the reasons, FN or the "Herstal Group" started to branch out more. It also turned to the U.S., where the government hasn't killed the sport shooting and hunting traditions, for diversification reasons. Plus, it isn't as bitter of a pill for its voters. It also got the M16A2 contract wrestled away from Colt.

Herstal Group's president and CEO is Philippe Tenneson. Graybeard, you might do an Internet search on him and find some of his interviews. Some are in French; Google will roughly translate it for you. You might try freetranslation.com as well.

Where was a particular firearm made? Again, "That is a tough question to answer."

[Ramrod]

I don't think it's tough to answer at all.

http://www.shopunionmade.org/sporting.phtml

Everyone is entitled to believe whatever they want. I'll believe the truth.

[JPSaxMan]

Amen, Winchester and REMINGTON are on that list. Well, we all knew where the Remington guns were made. The most infamous location (I think anyway, and there are other plants) are in Ilion, NY. Both my 870 and 700 are stamped from the Ilion plant. And I can't complain :grin: . But sure seems like Winchester are made in the USA. So how did the French get into this anyway?