Author Topic: .243 to .257, small bores on large game, including elk  (Read 4269 times)

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Offline DelGue

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.243 to .257, small bores on large game, including elk
« on: February 23, 2005, 11:41:50 AM »
A .243 Winchester (all flavors) up to the .257.  Small bores on large game animals, up to and including elk, with premium bullets.

What do you think?
Del Gue

Offline Ramrod

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« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2005, 12:39:09 PM »
If you live in elk country, see elk every day, have the patience to wait for close shots at stationary targets, don't shoot through bones, and have the ability to put the bullet within an inch of where you want it, you can get away with it. Otherwise I would forget about it.
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Offline Greybeard

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.243 to .257, small bores on large game, in
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2005, 01:19:38 AM »
I think they make pretty good varmint and predator rifles. I prefer more for deer. Wouldn't even think of using either on elk. Still I recall a fellow who used to post on some of the forums I visited who guided for elk and mule deer in NM. He used a .243 with Nosler PTs on elk until he bought him a Browning BLR in .358 Win. Claimed it worked for him. I barely consider the 243 adequate on deer myself tho.


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Offline Redhawk1

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« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2005, 02:10:46 AM »
I would leave .243 Winchester (all flavors) up to the .257 for deer and smaller amimals. I would not use them in Canada on deer either.  I am sure they would work, but why push the envelope. Get a gun fit for the job.  :-)
If  you're going to make a hole, make it a big one.
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Offline buffalobob

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« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2005, 07:01:59 AM »
An interesting question, being as I knew an elk hunter who swore by the 264 Win Mag and I had always believed it to be a minimum for elk.

Many people use the 243 on whitetail deer, I prefer a fast 24  such as the 240 Wby  and a reasonable 25 is good up to mule deer.  I think you would need something with as much energy as  the 257 Wby w 120 gr partition (2700#) to reliably hunt elk. This is the same energy as O'Conner's 270 Win with 150gr bullet.  I am not recommending a 257 for elk and I do not adhere to the "one gun does it all" theory because you always need a new excuse to get a new gun.

Offline Paul Barnard

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« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2005, 04:19:34 PM »
I can't bring myself to justify using one on elk.  I have used both the 243 and to a greater degree the 257 Roberts on deer with 100% success.  I consider them ideal deer cartridges based on pretty extensive experience.  Seems to take the life out of them more quickly than my 30-06 and my 45-70.  In my book caribou is as large an animal as I would want to shoot with the 243 257 class round.

Offline Redhawk1

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« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2005, 10:50:55 AM »
Quote from: Paul Barnard
I can't bring myself to justify using one on elk.  I have used both the 243 and to a greater degree the 257 Roberts on deer with 100% success.  I consider them ideal deer cartridges based on pretty extensive experience.  Seems to take the life out of them more quickly than my 30-06 and my 45-70.  In my book caribou is as large an animal as I would want to shoot with the 243 257 class round.


I would not even consider a  243 257 class round for Caribou. Nothing smaller that a 270 in my opinion.  :-)
If  you're going to make a hole, make it a big one.
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Offline Don Fischer

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« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2005, 09:50:10 AM »
I never really understand why people talk about caliber rather than bullet!
Probally a heavier bullet in either caliber that was constructed stronger would improve each somewhat. But when we to go to a heavier bullet in either, it would of necessity be longer. That would increase it's sectional density and, in theory, make a deeper penetrating bullet. I say, in theory, as I read where W.D.M. Bell quit using the 6.5 on elephant's because the long bullet had a tendicity to bend durning penetration. The 6.5 barnes QT fired a ,190 gr?, bullet at 2700 fps which in theory would be a super penetrator. But it went nowhere.

With everything there is a point of diminishing return's. In the 24 cal's it seem's to be at 105 gr and in 25 cal 120 gr. perhaps that's only because with the increase in weight is a decrease in velocity. Seem's that most people are not willing to give up velocity, beyond a certain point, to get penetration. Bullet weight does play a factor also. Driven at any velocity, a light object will shed veroicity faster. Loss of velocity equals a loss of energy. It's not the energy you apply to the skin of the animal, it's the energy you put inside it.

 To carry this to the absurd, what make's a better dangerous game bullet, a 30 cal  200 gr at 2900 fps or a 24 cal 150 gr bullet at, say,
2200fps?

Bob Melick has written ok using the 250 Sav. on Elk with success. I certainly don't doubt that but I don't think we should talk of what's possible but rather what's reasonable. I love the 25-06 but I also believe that for game larger than deer, it's best left in the closet. For a big game cartridge I believe the discussion should alway's start at cartridge's capable of using 130 gr and above bullet's designed to penetrate truly big game, not just deer.
:wink: Even a blind squrrel find's an acorn sometime's![/quote]

Offline Ramrod

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« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2005, 03:41:23 PM »
Don Fischer, if you want to shuffle some numbers, remember that the .30-06 with 220grain bullets @ 2400 fps has been taking African game, includind elephant, for almost 100 years now. You are correct, using the right bullet, (softpoint vs. solid) is the difference.
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Offline Don Fischer

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« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2005, 04:29:27 PM »
Ramrod,
I'm not sure what your saying here. You agree that using the right bullet is the difference. Leave elk out if the discussion and I think both are ok. But adding elk, mean's a larger mass to penetrate with fairly light weight bullet's.

I realize that elephant's have been taken with the 30-06 but there's a huge difference between a 30 cal 220 gr bullet (likely a solid) used at elephant shooting range's which I understand are close, and a 100 or even 120 gr soft nose bullet starting out at about 2900 fps and impacting something as bulky as an elk at even 100 yds.

It's not about shuffling number's. It's much harder to slow down a heavy object than a light one. And by the way, I don't know anyone that would recommend a 30-06 for elephant. polar Bear's are reported to have been killed with the 223 Rem. I wouldn't recommend that either. I believe that our cartridge selection should be reasonable and for larger game, prudent.
I can't understand how anyone can say, let's stick an elk with a 100 gr 243 load then decide that nothing short of a 30 cal mag is acceptable for dangerous game. The only thing changing here is the shooter's well being!
:wink: Even a blind squrrel find's an acorn sometime's![/quote]

Offline Robert

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« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2005, 05:34:36 AM »
I hunt Elk exclusively with my .177 Benjamin Pump.  Works fine...really flat shooting and fast.....? Really really fast if I pump it 100 times.  I think people post these kind of questions because they are reall bored out of their minds.  Sure...You CAN do it.....but as in the case of my pellet gun...I have been tracking that Elk for the last 40 years waiting for him to drop....any day now...  This question comes up at least once a month.  Can we put it on the Home page as the most frequently asked dumb question?  Then maybe we can be done with it and talk about real things.  Ok....Let's try this one....  Question #2  "If you could have only one gun, what would it be?"  What are some more of the really 'good' ones?  Let's make a list.  Sorry to be so pesimistic...but let's get real....Go ahead and shoot your Elk with whatever your heart desires.
....make it count

Offline Don Fischer

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« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2005, 08:00:05 AM »
Great post Robert. Were you using one of the new .177 Nosler partition's or one of the Hornady .177 SST pellet's? Ya can't give us only part of the detail's!
:wink: Even a blind squrrel find's an acorn sometime's![/quote]

Offline Omaha-BeenGlockin

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« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2005, 08:09:27 AM »
Not sure which exactly--.26 or .27 cal----but this state requires a minimum caliber for elk hunting.

Offline Lawdog

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« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2005, 12:40:20 PM »
The .243 Win. is about as small as I would go for deer but when one throws in Elk, Black Bear and bigger then get a larger caliber than a .243 or .257(not including the .257 Weatherby).  A good 6.5mm Swede comes to mind as about the smallest I would go.  Lawdog
 :D
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Offline Don Fischer

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« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2005, 01:20:51 PM »
No matter what you do to the 257 Weatherby, it's still hampered by bullet's lacking mass. Even the best of the custom bullet's will still only get you to 120 grs max. Assuming they can penetrate, they still need to have enough energy to reliablely destroy the vitals. What happened here and there that was successful does not make for endorsement of the lightweight's. I know a good number of people that will tell me I'm wrong about the 257's and they can show me a pile of dead elk to prove it. All taken under condition's ideal to the cartridge they were using.

 That I don't think is a valid argument here as we may be setting the stage for someone lacking the skill's to use such a cartridge improperly. For instance, is the 257 Weatherby exceptable with an 87 gr bullet? I think not. Is it acceptable with any bullet at say 300 yds? I think not. This sounds like giving Sugar Ray Leonard a shot of steroids and throwing hin in the ring with Larry Holmes! Sugar Ray's gonna be game on the road to defeat.
:wink: Even a blind squrrel find's an acorn sometime's![/quote]

Offline buffalobob

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« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2005, 03:06:52 PM »
Bullet mass is an interesting parameter that is a factor in both energy and momentum

Momentum = mv  and Energy = 1/2mvv.

An arrow is basically a cutting tool so you are concerned  more with the momentum to penetrate and cut as you penetrate.  (If you remember Lloyd Bridges in Seahunt and all of the underwater knife fights --in this situatiion you are no longer concerned much with momentum but rather force F = ma because the knife is in the hand, not thrown through the water- i.e. it is not a projectile).  As you correctly state, bullet mass is critical because you must maintain enough momentum to penetrate.  A light varmint bulelt  opens up quickly and begins shedding mass and loseing both momentum and energy very quickly.  A solid, such as for elephants, dangerous game, is designed to retain all mass and maximize  momentum retention and penetration even when bones are encountered and these are typically large mass, slow velocity in order to achieve high momentum and a controlled slow shed of energy.   This is the same concept is the M-16 using small daimeter, small mass, high velocity FMJ to achieve adequate momentum and maintain mass to peneterate effectively and shed some amount of energy as it does so.  

In the end,  the joke by "Robert" is very nearly correct, the variables of mass and velocity msut be coupled with a bullet constrution that has the proper retention of mass and  of momentum and the proper release of energy to do the intended job i.e. varmint bullets for low masss and momentum retention and  high energy release all the way up to the solids and somewhere in the middle are the partitions, accubonds, barnes etc with very controlled mass retention.  

At 300 yds a 120 grain 257 Wby has about 1720 ftlb and the famed 270 Win with a 150 grain bullet has about 1800 ftlb.  There is less than 5 % difference in energy but a 11% difference in momentum.  This difference of momentum  is where one should be judicious in choseing bullet constuction and mass to fit the need.

If I get bored enough I will calculate the velocity needed  by the .177 Benjamin pump  to get the same momentum and energy as the 270 Win. at 300 yds.

Offline swecology

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Reality Check
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2005, 06:35:59 PM »
Interesting posts...

Buffalo Bob,  thank you for the lesson in physics.  I was a bit rusty.  And no, I am not doubting the veracity of your computations or opinion.

I noticed that your location is the Potomac River.  I'm curious...when was the last time you actually saw an elk around the Potomac?  Or a mule deer?

My point is, as a research scientist (plant and wildlife ecology), math and theory is really great.  Until you try and apply it.  Then the models typically show all of their faults.  

I have hunted in Arizona for Whitetail and Mulies for quite a few years with a .25-06 Rem. without a problem.  I used the same gun as a backup for elk, in case my .30-06 wasn't functional.  Elk with a .25-06 is a viable option, just as it would be with a .270 (the ballistics between the two with a 120 gr. bullet are very similar).  

On the other hand, I do like to be able to single handedly support the firearms industry.  For elk, the 25-06 has been retired, the 30-06 is my backup, and the new 7mm WSM Win Featherweight will be my primary weapon.

Let me know if you find that Mulie or Elk in the D.C. Metro area...

Semper Fi.

Offline Don Fischer

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« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2005, 06:17:35 AM »
I live in elk and mule deer country right now. I lived in elk and mule deer country in Lakeside, Sommer's and Big Fork, Montana. I've hunted them with 243 win, 6.5x55, 6.5x06, 280 rem, 7x57, 7mm rem mag, 308 win 30-06, 338 win mag and a 350 rem mag. I also use a 25-06 a great deal plus have used a large assortment of various bullet's for all of them.

 The lesson in physic's was wonderful and while there exist's many instance's where you can give evidence that physic's is,,,, mistaken, it is really not. Elk and Mule Deer are being shot with cartridge's under 6.5 cal all the time, and those that do it proudly point to the dead animal and say "see, told ya so!". That does not make those lesser cartridge's acceptable for general use. All it prove's is that either the user was very skilled at using it or very lucky. I'm all for very skilled.

 Where we run into a problem is that these site's are open to anyone with access to a computer, they don't even have to have one. Many of those people are new or very uninformed in this business of sport hunting and if they find something they want to hear or that make's sense, they may well try it. Then too, when certain cartridges may be selected that are a bit on the shallow side, quite often all the if, and's and but's are left out.

An example would be a suggestion that the 280 Rem make's a fine brown bear cartridge............Who can dispute that it would certainly do the job WITH the added if's, and's and but's? Or you get the writer that say's "the 25-06 is acceptable for elk, I use it all the time but, I wouldn't reccomend it." And so the challenge is put out there.

In another area of this site is a fellow that watched a T.V. program on the shooting of a deer at 450 yards. He's decided that he need's to practice more, guess where thats going! Another post talk's of the 1000 yard shooter OF GAME! Most writing in seem impressed with this nonsense. To shoot at paper target's at those ranges is one thing, live game something else again, thank the father of "bean field rifle's", we all know who that is!

 We live in a time when hunting and shooting come's unde pressure from anti's and the most visible part of our sport is thoes of us that write in on these forum's. Those anti's don't spend much time gathering first hand fact's, they get it here. We need to make sure that suggestion's and recommendation's we make are reasonable AND prudent in general, not just for the highly schooled. Some moron that couldn't kill a deer with an anti tank round uses a 257 Weatherby on a brown bear because someone said it's a good elk cartridge and elk are bigger than any other bear HE ever saw, who will he point the finger at for his own stupidity? That's right, us, even tho we never suggested anything of the sort.

 We cannot do much about those individual's but we can keep our public opinion's to reasonable and prudent. Especially those of us who have more to say than "yup, 270 does it all.".
:wink: Even a blind squrrel find's an acorn sometime's![/quote]

Offline Don Fischer

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« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2005, 06:27:08 AM »
I was just reading swecology's post again. There it is, just as I was talking about. You really don't suggest that the 120 gr load from a 270 is suitable for elk do you???????? I is likely the worst selection between the 25-06 120 gr and the 270 120 gr!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THERE IT IS AGAIN!
:wink: Even a blind squrrel find's an acorn sometime's![/quote]

Offline Lawdog

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« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2005, 12:53:52 PM »
I was informed that I needed to clarify my statement when I said “but when one throws in Elk, Black Bear and bigger then get a larger caliber than a .243 or .257(not including the .257 Weatherby)”.  The reason I said that is I have taken Elk and Moose with my .257 Weatherby using 120 gr. Nosler Partition bullets.  Loaded with the newer 115 gr. Barnes TSX bullets I would go after any critter North America except the large Bears.  The 100 gr. TSX out penetrates the 115 gr. Partition so it figures that the 115 gr. TSX should penetrate even better the old stand-by 120 gr. Partition.  Use the right bullet and the .257 Weatherby is one heck of a cartridge for any non-dangerous game.  Lawdog
 :D
Gary aka Lawdog is now deceased. He passed away on Jan. 12, 2006. RIP Lawdog. We miss you.

Offline drdougrx

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« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2005, 05:02:21 PM »
Last couple of years I've been using the 243 on fallow deer and small exotics in various preserves.  Meat shoots and weekend getaways really.  I've used 95gr BTs and 100gr partitions.  I've shot 2 fallow, a spanish goat and a jacobs sheep.  I've not been all that impressed and would never consider it of a real hunt.  I'm dissapointed really.  I have a ruger 77 UL and a #1.  The deer required a second followup shot.  I guess I expected 270 or 06 performance.  The shots were not more than 75 yards and the deer weights not more than 160lbs or so pounds.

My 2 cents.

Doug
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Offline buffalobob

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« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2005, 05:40:56 PM »
SWEcology

You're welcome for the lesson in physics being as I see you are in graduate school and probably need some good instruction because you did not chose to go the University of Alabama.  Will I see you in the NCAA?  

As far as there being elk in the Potomac Valley, it is up to to your generation and those in your and my profession to try to make that happen and a reality.  There are now elk once again in Pennsylvania  and they are migratinging into West Virginia from Kentucky, I believe.  Scientific based game management and environmental improvement has brought back many of the game animals to very good populations.  You can bad mouth theory all you want but it has really helped ;and, yes sometimes we were wrong.  As a boy growing up in rural northern Alabama in the 1960's I had to drive 150 miles to find deer.  Now there are deer and turkey all over the home place.  In your life time you will see elk in the Potomac Valley if your generation does not destroy what my generation did for you.

Before you were born many of us were doing very strange things with guns which were not well accepted by the general shooting fraternity.  And yes sometime we learned things the hard way when theory did not match up with reallity.  I drove all the way from Salt Lake City to Denver just because that was the closest gunshop with a Redfield 6X18 scope and I wanted that scope for my 7mm elk gun.  Like you, I prefer the 25-06 for mule deer and antelope and as you say a good person with a good gun can do the job with a 25-06.  Unfortunately I sold that 25-06 to my hunting partner when I left Utah.  Sometimes I make mistakes.

When you graduate send me a resume and maybe I will teach you to how to catch American shad on a fly rod in the Potomac.

And lastly,

De Oppresso Liber -
When elk start shooting back it will be even more fun.  I wonder what caliber they will use.

Offline Don Fischer

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« Reply #22 on: March 03, 2005, 06:37:25 PM »
Ya gotta love this guy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:wink: Even a blind squrrel find's an acorn sometime's![/quote]

Offline drags

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« Reply #23 on: March 04, 2005, 03:43:21 AM »
Buffalobob, I agree that it is good to have an excuse to buy a new gun, But have you heard the old saying (beware of the man with one gun he may know how to use it)
Drags

Offline swecology

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.25-06 for Elk
« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2005, 06:04:49 AM »
Quote from: Don Fischer
I was just reading swecology's post again. There it is, just as I was talking about. You really don't suggest that the 120 gr load from a 270 is suitable for elk do you???????? I is likely the worst selection between the 25-06 120 gr and the 270 120 gr!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THERE IT IS AGAIN!


I didn't say that it would be a preferred choice.  I did say that it is a viable choice.  Viable in the context of where the situation would demand it, such as a smaller stature hunter, a well-controlled shot, etc.  I have seen the results from a .270 and a .25-06 on an Elk - dead is dead, no matter what caliber is used.  

My preference is for a .257 117 grain Sierra Boat Tail also, not a Nosler.   Or a 165 gr. Sierra HPBT in my .30-06.   When it comes to weapon selection and performance, I come from a different background where accuracy and bullet performance outweighs a large powder charge.  Just my opinion though, of which I hope you respect as I do yours.  

On the other hand, conditions change.  Like when a 500,000 acre fire changes the habitat.  In this new situation, the range and power of the.25-06 is insufficient, as there is a lot of open space where there were doghair thickets of Ponderosa Pine.  Hence my choice of a 7mm WSM with either a 140 gr. Sierra BTSP (cow) or a 160 gr. Sierra HPBT (bull).  My effective range had to increase, whether I like it or not.  

Like I said, everything in it's own context....

Matt

 :D

Offline Don Fischer

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« Reply #25 on: March 04, 2005, 11:05:50 AM »
swecology, Your almost right of course except a couple thing's. First off I don't know who make's a 120 gr 270 bullet. If someone did, would it be a big game bullet? Or would some bullet maker make another premium light for caliber bullet so you can hunt big game with it? I think the best example of that is the 60 gr Nosler partition in 224 cal. Now I know what's possible but I also know what's prudent. Would you consider that a deer bullet? I wouldn't. In theory, it would maybe penetrate an elk, with all the if's, and's and but's.

In this section, you'll find a debate on what make's a better deer cartridge, the 220 Swift or the 22-250 Rem. I haven't looked at it to much, I find it nonsense at best. What I have looked at, no if's, and's or but's! You seem to be an intelligent guy, I assume we both know what's possible there but is it really reasonable to discuss something like that without also discussing the skill's required? We are not the only one's looking at this PUBLIC site!

Quite often well practiced and well intentioned people let thing's out kinda matter-of-factly. The mechanic's of this shooting thing and using a bullet to kill seem obvious to us. So, I think when we leave the area of prudent, we should go to that pm thing and discuss it out of public eye. perhaps then we could come up with the answer to justify our position that include's the if's, and's and but's.

How small a cartridge really is necessary to kill an elk? Much smaller than we've even discussed here, but this is not the place to discuss such thing's. By the way, just to let you know how close you and I are, my pet load for my 25-06 is the 117 gr Hornady and for my 30-06 and 306 165 gr Hornady. I do not use my 25-06 on elk and do not recommend it, not even as a back up. If you want to discuss why, pm me. When we get it straight, we can post a better answer here; better than "oh yea, I done it!"
:wink: Even a blind squrrel find's an acorn sometime's![/quote]

Offline buffalobob

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« Reply #26 on: March 04, 2005, 02:47:02 PM »
Drags

Don't ever say that out loud, my wife might hear you.

It is best that she not know some things.

Offline swecology

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« Reply #27 on: March 04, 2005, 06:30:22 PM »
Don,

Well, there you have it.  You operate in a perfect, static, unnatural world, where everything goes according to your plan.

I don't.  I operate in a imperfect world that is in continual, dynamic state of change where conditions are often not optimum.  I work with what I have, as I have found that I can control very little.  

I don't think you read what I wrote closely, nor did you comprehend it.  I try and make it a practice to never say never.  Sure enough, as soon as those words are out my mouth (or leave my fingers) I regret the finality of "never".  Think about it.  

Consider that the region, ecosystem and habitat that you hunt in, compared to the one that I hunt in, are so radically different that maybe (and here's a concept you really need to consider), just maybe the tools needed to hunt well in each area are different. ???  Where what wouldn't work for you in the Pac Northwest might work for me in a upper Sonoran/Chihuahuan Sky Island?   I will grant you that I should have said 120 gr. .257 vs. a 140 gr. .270 - but you really don't want to split hairs, do you?

Have a good weekend, y'all.  I gotta work on my thesis.

-Matt

P.S.  Buffalo Bob,

I enjoyed your posts.  Quite insightful.  And I may just take you up on that offer of fly fishing.  Ten years of Az drought have kept me from casting a fly of late.  More later to you, if I may.

Offline lilabner

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.243 to .257, small bores on large game, in
« Reply #28 on: March 05, 2005, 07:21:31 AM »
Years ago, I made a northern BC hunt for moose and woodland caribou. The area also had a healthy grizzly population. Two guides were in the party and both were packing .270 Winchesters as backup rifles. I used a 30-06 and it performed very well. Today, many people are using magnums for deer, and I have read that the .338 Winchester Magnum is the lightest caliber than should be used for elk. I find that interesting as I have used the 30-06 with 180 gr. Nosler partitions for all but one of my bull elk and shot that one with a 7mm Rem. Magnum. ( The '06 kills every bit as well and I've since dumped the 7mag.) I do not defend the use of quarter bores or 6mms for elk because there aren't many hunters who will exercise the discipline necessary to take only suitable shots. A 6.5 mm '06 shooting heavy bullets with excellent sectional density should work OK, though, as will a .270 with heavy bullets or a .280.
The percentage of 6 point or better bull elk killed is not as high as it once was. I recently visited a website for Wyoming packtrain hunts and they bragged about the large number of 5 points taken. We are shooting smaller elk on average. Why do we need more powerful rifles to take them? Sure, they extend point blank range a few yards, but there aren't that many shooters who should be taking shots over 300 yards, anyway.

Offline jro45

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.243 to .257, small bores on large game, in
« Reply #29 on: March 10, 2005, 10:21:10 AM »
I own a 257 WBY and that gun can kill deer as well as a 30/06. You see once the 100 gr bullet gets inside the deer it tumbles and tares the insides up= dead deer and if it hits a bone Noslers partitions would brake it. :D