.243 to .257, small bores on large game, including elk

[Coyote Hunter]

DelGue -

My person opinion is htat there are a log of cartridges that are better suited for elk than a .24 or .25, including the .270 with a 150g bullet, a 7mm -08 wiht a 160g bullet, and most anything larger.

Over the last 23 years I've seen more elk wounded with a .243 than all other cartridges put together, and usually by inexperienced hunters.

[Don Fischer]

Where did this tumbling notion come from? The same claim's were made for the 5.56 military. Think about it, how do you make a bullet tumble on impact? It would have to be unbalanced. If it's unbalanced, how do you get it to fly straight? Can anyone tell me how this happen's???

[Ramrod]

Where did this tumbling notion come from? The same claim's were made for the 5.56 military. Think about it, how do you make a bullet tumble on impact? It would have to be unbalanced. If it's unbalanced, how do you get it to fly straight? Can anyone tell me how this happen's???

The old 5.56 military 55 grain round definately tumbles on impact, when fired from the old slow twist barrels. I have dug enough of them out of different backstops to prove it to myself. They end up flattened out lengthwise, and bent to some degree or another, sometimes 90 degrees or more. I have also seen the same thing with 9mm hardball, fired from carbines, they turn sideways and flatten out. I believe it is because  the bullet has the weight concentrated in the back. They are stable in flight, because of the rifling, but just barely. When they impact, they lose enough spin to do what they would have done if they weren't spinning, that is turn around to fly heavier part first. Once they present their broad side to the target, they flatten out if the substance is substantial enough. A softpoint spitzer bullet that fails to expand should behave just like hardball. I believe this is why full jacketed bullets used on elephant or rhino, are always round nosed. That puts the center of gravity further foward to keep them from tumbling when penetration is of the utmost importance. Hope this make sense, but this is what I have observed.

[Don Fischer]

Well that's the best answer I've heard yet. But the rate of twist in a 5.56 and the 223 is faster than other 22's to accomidate the heavier bullet. Maybe the spitzer shape alone is what does it? If that's it then the 7.62 nato and the 30-06 military rounds must tumble also. Bring's us back to the 257 Weatherby. It's designed to tumble also? If so what good a softpoint bullet and what need a partition bullet?

I don't have any 223's anymore or I'ed go try that. Come to think of it, I've some .223 Speer FMJ's that are fairly blunt.

[Lawdog]

I own a 257 WBY and that gun can kill deer as well as a 30/06. You see once the 100 gr bullet gets inside the deer it tumbles and tares the insides up= dead deer and if it hits a bone Noslers partitions would brake it.

As a big fan of the Quarter Bore caliber(collect them - from .25-20 to .257 Weatherby) and have used them on critters from Ground Squirrels to Elk(mostly Tule Elk but also Rocky Mountain Elk) I have to say I have never had a bullet out of one of my .257 caliber rifles "tumble" after hitting any animal yet.  I am not saying that bullets don't tumble as I have seen the results from few .224 calibers that have.  I once had a 105 gr. .243 tumble but it hit a strand of fence wire before coming into contact with the deer’s head(actually it was a miss as I was aiming at the deer’s heart).  Lawdog
 

[Mac11700]

My understanding is old 5.56  bullets were designed to tumble...since expanding bullets are verbotten under the GC rules...and they had to maximize the wounding capablitites of the round...ie...it cost most manpower and money to care for a wounded soldier than dealing with a dead one...

Mac

[tcman]

Between my sons, wife and I, we have killed a substantial number of Mule Deer and Elk over the years with the calibers you mention.

The only animal I have not revcovered that I shot with a rifle was a bull Elk I shot 3 times inside of 50 yards with a 30-06. All three shots were in the boiler room.

I re-barreled the 30-06 to 25-06 after that and started hunting EVERYTHING I hunt with the 100 grain Sierra bullet. I've never had to track an animal since then.

In our experience, we have shot our animal in broad-side situations, shooting them in the lungs. The fast bullets cause so much hydrostatic shock that it vaporizes the lungs.

Keep in mind that we are very good shots and we don't take "iffy" shots.

By the same token a 300 MAG is useless if you don't place the bullet in the right place...close only counts in horse-shoes and handgrenades.

The light recoil of the 243/25-06 class weapon also aids in avoiding flinching from recoil. Again, you can't hit anything if you are trying to out-run the recoil.

I think that the bigest issue is really the individual persons ability and proficiency with their weapon. By the same token, I wouldn't use either caliber for LARGE bear species, or dangerous game. If I was hunting Griz or Kodiak, I'd be packing a 375 class gun.

[jro45]

So they don't tumble out of a WBY 257, 100 gr nosler partition. OK  
I was on a deer hunt down in Albanama and the owner of the plantation we were on said he shot a deer with his WBY 257 a 100 gr bullet and that bullet opened up the whole side of that deer and for that reason he wanted to sell his gun. So it seemed to me that the bullet had to tumble to do that to that deer.

[Lawdog]

So they don't tumble out of a WBY 257, 100 gr nosler partition. OK  
I was on a deer hunt down in Albanama and the owner of the plantation we were on said he shot a deer with his WBY 257 a 100 gr bullet and that bullet opened up the whole side of that deer and for that reason he wanted to sell his gun. So it seemed to me that the bullet had to tumble to do that to that deer.

It didn't have to tumble to do that kind of damage to a deer.  Actually the 100 gr.. bullet is light for the .257 Weatherby.  For deer size critters I use bullet in the 115 gr. range.  I have seen 100 gr. Partition completely destroy a front quarter of an antelope shot at 200 yards.  Bullets like the Ballistic Tip, SST, etc. in the 100 gr. range will have an almost explosive reaction at the velocity the Weatherby has.  That owner should have been using a heavier bullet.  It didn’t tumble, it exploded.  Lawdog
 

[jro45]

He didn't say the 100 gr bullet was a ballistic tip. I know what a ballistic tip
bullet can do. Well sir you have your thoughts on this and I have mine. I hunted for over 35 years seen all kinds of bullet damage and been in the army back in the 60's.

[Lawdog]

jro45,

I got my .257 Weatherby in 1966 before I went into the Marines.  Since then I have tried many different make and types of bullets in it.  Some results were encouraging, some weren’t.  I did come to realize that using a too light a weight bullet was not a good idea in this speed burner.  The new Barnes TSX in 100 gr. is the exception as it gave complete penetration on a nice size Wild Hogs(just over 250 lbs. dressed).  The TSX bullets are changing me from a Partition user with their combination of accuracy and penetration.  Lawdog
 

[jro45]

I shot my boar with my 7mm Mag using a 160gr partition. Don't like Barnes bullets because they are made of solid copper. I know they have a nice X pattern when they penatrate but I'll shoot noslers first. I went in The United States Army in july of 1966.

[jmckinley]

 I just finished this post and found it enlightening. My hunting partner, we teach together has killed Oryx, Elk, Bear, speed goats and deer with single shots from his lowly 243. I agree with many of you that its not what you hit them with but where. I posted earlier that my new toy is a 6mm Interarms Mark X Mauser and it will be my goat and deer gun period. If you are an expert marksman then the smaller calibers will work. For most of us mortals something a little larger makes up for our shooting sins. Bob Melik(SP) noted gun writer killed many an Elk with a 25-06. For me my new Elk rifle will be Weatherby in 270WSM shooting 140gr Fail safe's. If it's to small oh well I have a feeling the Elk won't no the difference if it's a small pill or a large one. Dead is dead!! Heck the Eskimos in Alaska kill bear and walrus with 30-30's or a 303 Brit. They never knew it was to small for the job.   Jess

[tuck2]

I like the little  257 Roberts and 25-06 .I have them, but when it comes to elk I have shot them with a 270 -130 and 150 Gr bullets, 308 Norma Mag -165 Gr bullet and a 340 Weatherby Mag-225 Gr. bullet. A rifleman shooting some of the new bullets can take elk . But why use a little caliber which are great for deer and prong horn when other larger calibers are available for elk ?

[JDJones]

Back in the Empire days, many a Brittish gent or officer carried a "Bulldog". Large caliber, with a very heavy bullet, through a short barrel. The bullet was expected to keyhole, and it did.
As for the one gun question, I prefer the 45-70, (ok, it isn't fast). It is perfectly capable of taking elk, ect at ranges I am willing to shoot. It also ruins a minimal amount of meat.
JD

[Savage .250]

No doubt in my mind the .243 and .257 will do the deed but IMO, i`d rather have a larger cal to go with.  Say a Savage 99 in .300.  
  What ever the cal make sure the gun is light(weight). I can live with recoil but carrying something that feels like a refrigerator all day sure makes my legs rebelious as hell.

  " The best part of the hunt is not the harvest but in the experience."

[Buckeye]

I can't bring myself to justify using one on elk.  I have used both the 243 and to a greater degree the 257 Roberts on deer with 100% success.  I consider them ideal deer cartridges based on pretty extensive experience.  Seems to take the life out of them more quickly than my 30-06 and my 45-70.  In my book caribou is as large an animal as I would want to shoot with the 243 257 class round.

I would not even consider a  243 257 class round for Caribou. Nothing smaller that a 270 in my opinion.  :-)

I feel the great sectional density of the 6.5 bullets would in the 140-160 gr. weights, would make the 6.5X55 or the 6.5-06 alright for elk, but the 270 win. would be a better choice.

[NONYA]

bad idea,why do somthing stupid when you have the option of using a more adequate caliber? :eek:

[kombi1976]

Velocity with these smaller bores when using 120gn bullets isn't the issue.
The problem is energy.
The bullet doesn't retain momentum and it has a much lower impact energy when it hits.
If you are doing spine or head shots or intend to slip the bullet in between the ribs and knock them down that way then perhaps.
But the risk of not being able to place a bullet exactly where it's needed is too much if you ask me.
Even stepping up the .007" from .257 cal to .264 opens up your bullet mass exponentially.
You then have everything from 90gn to 160gn bullets easily available and I believe some companies are even producing a 175gn bullet, something which wouldn't not hinder many mil-surp 6.5x55s with their long throated chambers.
I'd say for anything above medium sized deer .257 isn't ideal.