Author Topic: Witchhunt? (Read 6989 times)

Leftoverdj · « **on:** February 25, 2005, 04:49:32 AM »

TOPEKA, Kan. (Feb. 25) - The Kansas attorney general is demanding abortion clinics turn over the complete medical records of nearly 90 women and girls, saying he needs the material for an investigation into underage sex and illegal late-term abortions.

Two clinics are fighting the request in Kansas Supreme Court, saying the state has no right to such personal information.

But Attorney General Phill Kline, an abortion opponent, insisted Thursday: "I have the duty to investigate and prosecute child rape and other crimes in order to protect Kansas children.''

Kline is seeking the records of women and girls who had late-term abortions. Sex involving someone under 16 is illegal in Kansas, and it is illegal in the state for doctors to perform an abortion after 22 weeks unless there is reason to believe it is needed to protect the mother's health.

Kline spoke to reporters after details of the secret investigation, which began in October, surfaced in a legal brief filed by attorneys for two medical clinics. The clinics argued that unless the high court intervenes, women who obtained abortions could find government agents knocking at their door.

The clinics said Kline demanded their complete, unedited medical records for women and girls who sought abortions at least 22 weeks into their pregnancies in 2003. Court papers did not identify the clinics.

"These women's rights will be sacrificed if this fishing expedition is not halted or narrowed."
-Brief Filed by Two Unidentified Medical Clinics

The records sought include the patient's name, medical history, details of her sex life, birth control practices and psychological profile.

The clinics, which said nearly 90 women and girls would be affected, are offering to provide records with some key information, including names, edited out.

"These women's rights will be sacrificed if this fishing expedition is not halted or narrowed,'' the clinics said in court papers.

On Oct. 21, state District Judge Richard Anderson ruled that Kline could have the files. The clinics then filed an appeal with the high court. No hearing has been scheduled.

The clinics outlined their legal arguments in a brief filed Tuesday. Though other documents in the case remain sealed, the brief filed Tuesday was not, and The Wichita Eagle disclosed Kline's investigation in a story published Thursday.

In their brief, the clinics' attorneys said a gag order prevents the clinics from even disclosing to patients that their records are being sought. Attorneys declined to comment Thursday, citing the order.

"You can see our desire to discuss as much as possible, but we feel constrained,'' said attorney Lee Thompson.

Thompson declined to say if his client was Dr. George Tiller, whose Wichita clinic is known as a provider of late-term abortions and is a frequent target of abortion opponents.

Kline would not discuss the scope of the investigation. Recently, Kline's office helped Texas authorities gather information from Tiller regarding a pregnant teenager who sought his care and died in Kansas.

Kline began pushing in 2003 to require health care professionals to report underage sexual activity. Kline contends state law requires such reporting, but a federal judge blocked him. The case has yet to be resolved.

powderman · « **Reply #1 on:** February 27, 2005, 04:34:29 PM »

I have no problem with those womens rights being trifled with. If illegal abortions are being done, the butchers, and the so called mothers should be prosecuted and jailed. Murderers should always pay. They have no regard for the human beings they intentionally kill, I have no regard for them. The intentional killing of a human being for convenience, is murder, not birth control like some say. POWDERMAN. :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x

JPSaxMan · « **Reply #2 on:** February 27, 2005, 04:41:41 PM »

Plus, if handing over the files means aiding in preventing underage sexual acts and rape, then WHY THE **** NOT hand them over? :x :evil: .

Num_1_Dad · « **Reply #3 on:** February 28, 2005, 04:27:00 AM »

Quote from: powderman

I have no problem with those womens rights being trifled with. If illegal abortions are being done, the butchers, and the so called mothers should be prosecuted and jailed. Murderers should always pay. They have no regard for the human beings they intentionally kill, I have no regard for them. The intentional killing of a human being for convenience, is murder, not birth control like some say. POWDERMAN. :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x

I could not agree more!!!

Leftoverdj · « **Reply #4 on:** February 28, 2005, 05:28:55 AM »

US Constitution Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Where is the probable cause against the 90 women?

FWiedner · « **Reply #5 on:** February 28, 2005, 05:51:09 AM »

I am not a "pro-choice" person, but I understand that sometimes things need to be done.

Both these women's choice to engage in this sort of business, and their privacy are supposed to be protected by existing laws.

Once again, we see that any penalties that may come from violating those laws only applies to the little people.

Curtis · « **Reply #6 on:** February 28, 2005, 07:06:06 AM »

I agree LODJ and FW. As much as I disagree with abortion we cannot protect and uphold a right for one group of people and violate those same rights when it suits our agenda. To do so makes us hypocrites IMO.

Curtis

fe352v8 · « **Reply #7 on:** February 28, 2005, 07:37:40 AM »

Those that support Klines view, I take it you would have no problem posting your medical records. And, being guns are involved in crimes, you would not mind being finger printed. having the ballistic of your guns recorded, and giving a DNA sample, so the goverment can search for evidence of a crime. Hey while were at it, why not post your financal, phone and tax records? You can trust the government, after all the police only arrest the guilty, right? Violations of privacy are the first steps in turning the constitution into toilet paper.

Kline is still irked that in Kansas, a state that has been largely republican since forever, he lost a congressional race to a democrat. He will do anything to keep his name out, so he can run again.

Can anyone explain why the views of so many people, who are opposed to abortion, as killing; seem to be in favor of post natal abortion?
Does the right to life end at birth?

life is no joke but funny things happen

jon

powderman · « **Reply #8 on:** February 28, 2005, 07:52:02 AM »

LODJ. Probable cause? 90 children were murdered, what more do you want? A person that would kill a child, non mothers and their butchers, is capable of most anything in my opinion. Are you saying that those babies did not have a right to live? POWDERMAN. :x :x :x :x :x :x

fe352v8 · « **Reply #9 on:** February 28, 2005, 10:12:51 AM »

Abortion is legal in both Kansas and the US, hence there is no murder and thus no crime, at least under secular laws. In the absence of a crime, Mr. Kline is doing nothing more than making a grandstand publicity play.

While many find abortion to be, and add your own series of pejoratives, it is as legal as war, execution, and justifiable homicide. It would seem that those influenced by the Judeo-Christian heritage have a hard time with "thou shall not kill", oh well I guess the right to life ends at birth.

It is estimated that up to 500,000 Iraqi children died due to sanctions prior to the demise of Saddam, aside from being born Iraqi what crime did they commit?

life is no joke but funny things happen

jon

jh45gun · « **Reply #10 on:** February 28, 2005, 10:14:27 AM »

I look at it this way and yea I am pro life. Those that are for abortion consider this! Where would you be today if your mother had made that choice?

? Not even a memory!

powderman · « **Reply #11 on:** February 28, 2005, 01:03:58 PM »

Right and wrong have nothing to do with the law. Roe vs wade was, and is, a blight on the history of America. A very bad law, it should be repealed. Life begins at conception, shouldn't take a genius to figure that out. Abortion is all about killing, and money. In rare cases it might be done to save a mothers life, mostly it's done because practicing safe sex wasn't important at the time. A child is killed because of the sins and indescretions of others. Great idea, screw around all you want, sow your wild oats and pray for a crop failure. If a woman gets pregnant, no big deal, just kill the baby. Millions of married couples want to adopt, no reason to kill the baby. Many are forced to go overseas to adopt. Slavery used to be legal too, didn't make it right did it? A woman pays at least $1200 to a butcher to kill her baby. After the baby is cut out and killed the baby's body is then sold for experiments and fetal tissue, kinda like a lab rat. These people are going to be in for a real shockon judgement day. I can see it now, uhhhhhhhh, errrrrrrr, you mean that was a baby I killed? For them, women and butchers both, judgement day will not be pleasant. Make no doubt about it, abortion is murder, pure and simple. Fetus is a term the pro death people like to throw around, it sounds better to say, I terminated a fetus, than to say, I killed my baby. There are only 2 choices here, life, or death. Choose life. POWDERMAN.

JPSaxMan · « **Reply #12 on:** February 28, 2005, 02:11:21 PM »

I might be jumping both sides of the fence here, but I really don't care :roll: .

Suppose you were a young and attractive 21 year old female that was raped, and then got pregnant as a result of it? And you didn't want that child. What would you do? Besides adoption? Which sometimes still isn't the best route, because that child has to leave it's birthparent(s) and sometimes switches homes throughout his/her life. And that sometimes might make them wish they were aborted :evil: .

But for that same token, if a couple do it unprotected, conceive and don't want that baby, then abort, THAT is wrong. In this case, they were not responsible enough to take appropriate measures to prevent this case and the child they made shouldn't pay for it. Then I see the pro-life side of the issue.

Just my :money:

Shorty · « **Reply #13 on:** February 28, 2005, 02:25:31 PM »

I am ambivalent about abortion, but I have one question. People who want children are adopting from China, Russia, Bosnia, you name it, because there are not enough adoptable American babies. Why can these unwanted pregnancies not be carried to term and put up for adoption? :?

jh45gun · « **Reply #14 on:** February 28, 2005, 03:18:19 PM »

You got it shorty but these days women do not want to be inconvenienced. It is easier for them to abort. The sad part is most of these women after their first ones never have a other the guilt they feel afterwards is too much.

Leftoverdj · « **Reply #15 on:** March 01, 2005, 03:31:38 AM »

How did this become about abortion? I thought that we were addressing privacy rights, constitutional rights, and due process?

jh45gun · « **Reply #16 on:** March 01, 2005, 04:52:37 AM »

Well Abortion is mentioned several times in the article along with it being at a abortion clinic so I suppose it is related? Jim

Dali Llama · « **Reply #17 on:** March 01, 2005, 07:14:02 AM »

Quote from: Shorty

Why can these unwanted pregnancies not be carried to term and put up for adoption?

Have Shorty ever carried fetus for nine month, ask Dali Llama? :?

jh45gun · « **Reply #18 on:** March 01, 2005, 11:14:56 AM »

Quote from: Dali Llama

Quote from: Shorty
Why can these unwanted pregnancies not be carried to term and put up for adoption?
Have Shorty ever carried fetus for nine month, ask Dali Llama? :?

Does not matter any woman or girl for that matter knows that sex with out birth control produces babies and if they are not responsible enough to use birth control and rely on abortion to take care of their mistakes they are truely irresponsible. Just think Dali if your mom had not carried you for 9 months you would not be here giving us your wisdom! :wink: Shorty is right lots of folks would love to adopt a baby and cannot due to the shortage of adoptable babies yet women kill them by untold numbers each year. Seems like a large shame to me and a blight on womanhood. Jim

Leverdude · « **Reply #19 on:** March 01, 2005, 12:39:31 PM »

Thing is, its not against the law. Might be morally wrong to some but thats not the issue. Its legal & these women have the right to privacy just like you & me.

I'm on the fence on the abortion thing but feel its a personal decision thats not my affair unless its my child we're talking about.
I wouldnt be here if my mom got an aborton, but I'd not be here had she taken the pill or if dad wore a raincoat either.

I can see more than one reason a woman or couple might feel the need to end a pregnancy & again its not my affair & not the affair of the people in the article. Sounds like someone banging on every gunowners door because they might have an illegal gun in the house.
So far we'v not degenerated to that point & I'd rather not see that day myself.

If a man & woman burn in hell for getting an abortion thats not my affair either.

Dali Llama · « **Reply #20 on:** March 01, 2005, 12:53:11 PM »

Quote from: jh45gun

Quote from: Dali Llama
Quote from: Shorty
Why can these unwanted pregnancies not be carried to term and put up for adoption?
Have Shorty ever carried fetus for nine month, ask Dali Llama? :?

Just think Dali if your mom had not carried you for 9 months you would not be here giving us your wisdom!

:grin: :grin: :grin:

Shorty · « **Reply #21 on:** March 01, 2005, 01:57:39 PM »

OK, guys, I'm going to get very personal here. Why am I ambivalent about abortion? I'll tell you. My youngest daughter had an abortion when she was about 16. I and my wife personally drove her to the clinic. It was a legal, but unmarked building to hide from protestors. Very hush-hush. The father paid for it, after all, he was just a "date". The next time she got pregnant from a "date", she absolutely would NOT go through that again.
You know what I got out of that? The best damn grandson, shooting buddy, son I never had in the whole wide world! What might have been the one who was aborted? She wonders, and I wonder. :cry:

Dali Llama · « **Reply #22 on:** March 01, 2005, 02:00:54 PM »

Quote from: Shorty

OK, guys, I'm going to get very personal here. Why am I ambivalent about abortion? I'll tell you. My youngest daughter had an abortion when she was about 16. I and my wife personally drove her to the clinic. It was a legal, but unmarked building to hide from protestors. Very hush-hush. The father paid for it, after all, he was just a "date". The next time she got pregnant from a "date", she absolutely would NOT go through that again.
You know what I got out of that? The best damn grandson, shooting buddy, son I never had in the whole wide world! What might have been the one who was aborted? She wonders, and I wonder. :cry:

Dali Llama say he appreciate Shorty sharing personal experience. Dali say it likely rare that one experience both sides of abortion.

JPSaxMan · « **Reply #23 on:** March 01, 2005, 02:02:48 PM »

Wow. :cry: . A very sad story, Shorty :cry: . I can clearly see why you're against it. I'd be too.

powderman · « **Reply #24 on:** March 02, 2005, 03:36:40 AM »

I heard a testimony from a woman in church about killing her baby. She said there hadn't been a day or night she hadn't cried, even though it had been 30 years since she killed her child. She wonders what it would have been, man, or woman. What kind of work it would have been doing. Doctor, lawyer, maybe even a preacher. Even though she knew God had forgiven her, she is still riddled with guilt.
I argued this with 2 guys a few years ago. Both had been very angry when their daughters had babies out of wedlock, one was 14, the other 15 years old. They both bragged on the grand babies, how much they loved them, and the joy they all shared. I told them that the baby they held in their arms and loved dearly today, was the same that was in their daughters womb less than a year before. Then I asked one question. I asked, at what point during your daughters pregnancy do you think it would have been proper to have KILLED that baby you hold today in your arms. They both dropped their heads in shame.
What I seem to be hearing from some of you is that you don't believe that a child has the right to live. Is that it guys? I don't want to hear about a womans right to choose because the only choices are life, or death. Choose life. POWDERMAN. :-) :-) :-) :-)

JPSaxMan · « **Reply #25 on:** March 02, 2005, 04:50:00 AM »

Wow. I think if I keep getting subjected to these stories of where people don't regret not having the abortion and those who do have it regret it regardless of whether He forgave them or not, I might have to jump to the pro-life side of the fence. This might change my opinion on the matter entirely...

FWiedner · « **Reply #26 on:** March 02, 2005, 04:55:45 AM »

Quote from: powderman

What I seem to be hearing from some of you is that you don't believe that a child has the right to live

PM, I don't think anyone has endorsed abortion, and even in the cases where someone has said it should be done, it was only in the most dire circumstance.

While the subject of abortion is certainly important, and does have some part in the discussion, the thrust of the article was about an unlawful governmental violation of several women's privacy rights for engaging in a legal activity at a particular clinic, cloaked under the guise of researching potential sex crimes.

At least that's what I'm "hearing".

I don't know. Maybe it's me that don't hear so good.

Leverdude · « **Reply #27 on:** March 02, 2005, 12:29:55 PM »

I thought it was about these womens rights as well, but as often happens when emotional subjects get mixed in with politics the thread has gone off on a tangent.

Dali Llama · « **Reply #28 on:** March 02, 2005, 12:33:51 PM »

Quote from: Leverdude

the thread has gone off on a tangent.

That do not always be negative thing, remark Dali Llama. :grin:

JPSaxMan · « **Reply #29 on:** March 02, 2005, 12:36:51 PM »

Women's rights, you're right. But the main malefactor...ABORTION!!! So we must talk about abortion in order to lay out the rights of women. No brainer.