Author Topic: Witchhunt?  (Read 6988 times)

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Offline jh45gun

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« Reply #30 on: March 02, 2005, 12:48:08 PM »
Quote from: Leverdude
I thought it was about these womens rights as well, but as often happens when emotional subjects get mixed in with politics the thread has gone off on a tangent.


This womens rights stuff is BS! :x I do not have the right to legally kill some one but they expect they can! They say it is their body and they have the right to do what they want with it then they should have considered that a bit more carefull before they got pregnant and decided to kill a human life!
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Offline Leverdude

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« Reply #31 on: March 02, 2005, 12:52:22 PM »
Fishman029,

I would respectfully disagree Sir, as abortion aint ilegal so the women werent breaking the law & their privacy oughtta be respected.  :D
Now, get them to make abortion illegal & everything will be different.

Not that I would necessarily support or oppose it myself.

Seems to me its a very personal thing that hasn't much to do with me.
I know women who'v had them & were devestated & others who made a decision & learned to live with it.
In some cases I understand & in others I'm befuddled. But in no case that I am personally aware was a decision to have an abortion taken lightly.
I should add that I dont view these women as murderers either.

I view it as one of those things that if you dont like it then raise your family so they dont like it either. Morals need to be taught not legislated.
Make it illegal & alot of girls will be hurt getting it done by other means.
History is clear on that.  :-)
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Offline Leverdude

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« Reply #32 on: March 02, 2005, 12:58:17 PM »
Quote from: jh45gun
Quote from: Leverdude
I thought it was about these womens rights as well, but as often happens when emotional subjects get mixed in with politics the thread has gone off on a tangent.


This womens rights stuff is BS! :x I do not have the right to legally kill some one but they expect they can! They say it is their body and they have the right to do what they want with it then they should have considered that a bit more carefull before they got pregnant and decided to kill a human life!



Why dont their rights count?  Because of your feelings?

Never heard of rape? Incest?  Fetal damage from drug use?
I'm not saying its pretty or nice, but its legal for a reason.
Make it ilegal, I dont much care, but its legal now & as long as its so they have a right to privacy.
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Offline jh45gun

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« Reply #33 on: March 02, 2005, 01:02:43 PM »
Them cases are a lot less  compared to the cases of get pregnant oops well no problem I will abort. This is what I have a issue with. As far as drug use women who get pregnant while using drugs should be sterilized as far as I am concerned if they have that little respect for their own bodies they should not be able to concieve and endanger others!  :x
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Offline Leverdude

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« Reply #34 on: March 02, 2005, 01:18:05 PM »
Jim,

Thing is if its legal its legal for all. If some women want to kill their offspring because its inconvnient then thats a social problem for sure but to penalize every woman every time isn't right either.
Its the morals in this country that have gone down the tubes & no law can fix that.
My kids wont likely find abortion as a viable option when they grow up I hope. If I'm right & I hope I am then it will give me great satisfaction knowing I raised them right. If I'm wrong then it'll be my failure. I dont need the gov't or anyone else to tell me right from wrong.
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Offline Dali Llama

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« Reply #35 on: March 02, 2005, 01:34:08 PM »
Quote from: Leverdude
I dont need the gov't or anyone else to tell me right from wrong.
Amen, say Dali Llama. :grin:
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Offline powderman

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« Reply #36 on: March 02, 2005, 04:04:01 PM »
Rarely does any thread stay on the original discussion. Since I kind of led the topic about abortion I guess I just need to shut up if this topic is not welcome. I thought it was going pretty well. I'll shut up now. POWDERMAN.  :(  :(  :(  :(  :(  :(
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

Only half the people leave an abortion clinic alive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAiOEV0v2RM
What part of ILLEGAL is so hard to understand???
I learned everything about islam I need to know on 9-11-01.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDqmy1cSqgo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u9kieqGppE&feature=related
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Offline JPSaxMan

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« Reply #37 on: March 02, 2005, 04:19:18 PM »
I might agree Leverdude, on the notion that it legally is acceptable. Ha, we're back to square one. Abortion is legal. But the technical release of documents IS illegal according to our Constitution. So all this moral talk of abortion, could be crap :? . Because we're still not answering why or why not Dr. Kline should have these records? Is it me or is that what we're doing? Nothing wrong...just checking.... :D
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Offline Leverdude

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« Reply #38 on: March 02, 2005, 04:36:52 PM »
I dont think the abortion discussion is crap, heck we'd never get anywhere if noone discussed things.
As far as weather Kline should have the records or not, thats simple, its up to the women in question. He's got no right to them & they shouldnt be made to open their lives to him but if they choose to let him look then thats that.  :-)

Powderman,
I respect & value your opinion so please dont shut up on my account.  :wink:  We may not agree on the abortion thing but I think the biggest difference is how we think it should be handled.

I dont think its a very responsible or moral thing to do but I do realize that in certain circumstances it is acceptable. For this reason I think the option should be there for those who do need it.
I'm sure there are women who get this done for the wrong reason & these women have a higher authority than us to answer to.

I dont much like being judged so I try not to judge others. Its hard enuff running my own life.  :)
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Offline Graybeard

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« Reply #39 on: March 02, 2005, 06:38:05 PM »
An issue not often discussed related to abortions and never agreed on when discussed is when does life begin. In other words when is the "human life" present to constitute killing?

Most strongly anti abortion folks tend to say are conception or very shortly there after. Pehaps. I'm certainly not the expert on such matters. I guess to me it's when the baby would be viable on it's own outside the mother. Guess I'm glad it's a decision I don't see me ever facing one way or the other on a personal basis.

I've long since given up on trying to decide what's right or wrong for another so long as current laws do not prohibit it. I just deal with what's right for me. I have enough trouble dealing with that. I do think it wrong to try to legislate morals tho. That's an individual thing each person has to decide for themselves. Those who make the wrong decisions will have their day of accountability.


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Offline jh45gun

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« Reply #40 on: March 02, 2005, 07:54:49 PM »
Yea GB a lot of folks consider it not a baby until it is out of the womb. Here is a double standard to think about that just came to mind. If a woman has a abortion and terminates the child it is her business and the abortion rights folks say no big deal a fetus is not a life since it is not born yet. BUT if a person kills a woman that is pregnant the system charges them with a double murder of the woman and the fetus????????? So ofr a woman it is ok it is not a child but if some one else kills it it is murder  :shock: SO go figure? Kinda like having your cake and eating it too.
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Offline jh45gun

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« Reply #41 on: March 02, 2005, 08:02:36 PM »
Well leverdude I will tell you one thing this debate has been going on since Roe VS Wade a lot of folks get reved about it. At least we are civil here and have a good debate going and I respect your views as I can see you do mine and every one elses. As a individual you have a different point of view and thats fine if we all thought a like it would be a boring world. That is the nice thing about this forum it is kept in line and every one gets along mostly.  :)  

Powderman no need to shut up heck your views are welcomed on any subject as well as anyone else's.  Jim
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Offline jh45gun

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« Reply #42 on: March 02, 2005, 08:15:03 PM »
Got to tell you guys all a true story. I was born in 1952. In those days really premature babies did not survive so when I was born at 2LBs they put me aside and that would have been it as most babies born premature were not breathing and figured dead and that was it back then as they did not have the technical advances we do today and premature babies have a huge better chance of surviving. Well you can tell I beat the odds as a nurse noticed I was still breathing so they did all they could and kept me alive. I went from 2 lbs to 1.5 lbs but still made it and did not have the severe problems most premature babies suffered at the time. So with that little story which is true I figure I was no different than a aborted fetus except my mother wanted to keep me and I have lived a happy life with a good family life while my parents were alive. So I guess that is why I feel so strongly about the abortion issue. I feel like in a way I have been there on the recieving end only I made it. I can only wonder about the babies that did not make it what their lives would have been and how many may have been future great contributers to our world? One or two may have came up with a cure for Cancer or some of our major diseases now or some other great thing. ITs a sad waste of life if you ask me. But as you guys say its legal yea it is but that does not make it neccessarily right either. :( Jim
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Offline Leftoverdj

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« Reply #43 on: March 02, 2005, 10:20:10 PM »
Quote from: Graybeard

Most strongly anti abortion folks tend to say are conception or very shortly there after. Pehaps. I'm certainly not the expert on such matters. I guess to me it's when the baby would be viable on it's own outside the mother.

....

I've long since given up on trying to decide what's right or wrong for another so long as current laws do not prohibit it. I just deal with what's right for me. I have enough trouble dealing with that. I do think it wrong to try to legislate morals tho. That's an individual thing each person has to decide for themselves. Those who make the wrong decisions will have their day of accountability.


Greybeard, for about 1800 years, both church and state agreed with you. The official position was that the soul did not enter the body, and hence the fetus did not become human until the "quickening", the point at which the woman could feel the fetus move, roughly the start of the sixth month or the start of viability. Prior to 1800, what few abortion laws existed were directed at quacks who killed the pregnant. Even the Catholic Church allowed abortion before the quickening until 1872.

I especially agree with your second point. Takes a whole lot to make me willing to interfere with what other people do. If it's something that I can't know about without being told, it likely ain't none of my business. Abortion falls into that category. The gubmint messing with born human beings is something I know about.
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Offline JPSaxMan

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« Reply #44 on: March 03, 2005, 01:15:19 AM »
I prolly shouldn't called it crap. You get where I was going. Uhh...I meant it seemed like we were goin in circles. BUT That's ok. Nuttin wrong with discussion once in a while. That's why we're in a forum titled 'Round the Old' Pot Bellied Stove'. So we can just blah and blah... :D
JP

Attorney: Now doctor, isn't it true that when a person dies in
his sleep, he doesn't know about it until the next morning?

Doctor: Did you actually pass the bar exam?

Proverbs 3:5 - Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding

Offline Mauser

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« Reply #45 on: March 03, 2005, 01:26:34 AM »
Nobody hates abortion more than I do, but this is scary.  As bad as abortion is, unrestrained govt power is worse.  Don't think for a second that "investigations" such as this won't, at some point, be used to get into your homes looking for "illegal guns".  

By the way, the way to end abortion is to change people's hearts and minds, not trample the constitution.

Offline Dali Llama

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« Reply #46 on: March 03, 2005, 08:12:51 AM »
Quote from: Fishman029
Nuttin wrong with discussion once in a while. That's why we're in a forum titled 'Round the Old' Pot Bellied Stove'.
:? Uh, Dali Llama say that last time he look, this thread and post be in Today's Important News forum. :?
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Offline BamBams

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« Reply #47 on: March 03, 2005, 10:26:28 AM »
Quote from: jh45gun
Well leverdude I will tell you one thing this debate has been going on since Roe VS Wade a lot of folks get reved about it.


Here's something you'll probably never read about in the news:

Jane Roe, (Norma McCorvey) the woman responsible for bringing this issue to legislation in America, totally changed her position on abortion a few years ago, and was baptised in Dallas, TX by an old friend of mine - Rev. Flip Benham.  I always wondered why he got the nickname "Flip" (really Phillip) and now I believe I know.

Anyway, shortly after her conversion to Christianity, she immediately went to work for "Operation Rescue National" (now called Operation Save America) and could be found at any abortion clinic trying to persuade women that they were making a mistake - so take it from her I guess?  In a discussion I had with her some time ago, she described the pressure that was put on her by organizations such as "National Organization For Women" and "Act Up" etc.   Sadly, she fell under their influences and became their poster child, even though she always felt in her heart that something was wrong.

If you think I'm making this up, give Flip a call at 972-240-9370.
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Offline JPSaxMan

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« Reply #48 on: March 03, 2005, 11:03:51 AM »
Quote from: Dali Llama
Quote from: Fishman029
Nuttin wrong with discussion once in a while. That's why we're in a forum titled 'Round the Old' Pot Bellied Stove'.
:? Uh, Dali Llama say that last time he look, this thread and post be in Today's Important News forum. :?


 :)  :-D  :)  :-D . Wow Dali. Thanx for keepin me in check. Sorry bout that, sometimes I get confused between this one, Pot Bellied, and the Bible Study. For some reason  :roll: .  :D
JP

Attorney: Now doctor, isn't it true that when a person dies in
his sleep, he doesn't know about it until the next morning?

Doctor: Did you actually pass the bar exam?

Proverbs 3:5 - Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding

Offline Graybeard

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« Reply #49 on: March 03, 2005, 12:27:33 PM »
We some times call our son Phillip by the name of Flip also. Now the why on that one is easy. Long ago when he was small and had a TV with a knob to change channels I'd often seen him there in front of it just turing the knob for long periods of time getting a quick look at each channel then moving on. Or in other words he was flipping the channels. So I started calling him Flip. Even now well over 20 years later the name still sticks.


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I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

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Offline Dali Llama

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« Reply #50 on: March 03, 2005, 01:30:09 PM »
Quote from: Fishman029
Quote from: Dali Llama
Quote from: Fishman029
Nuttin wrong with discussion once in a while. That's why we're in a forum titled 'Round the Old' Pot Bellied Stove'.
:? Uh, Dali Llama say that last time he look, this thread and post be in Today's Important News forum. :?


 Wow Dali. Thanx for keepin me in check.
:grin:  :grin:  :grin:
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Offline powderman

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« Reply #51 on: March 03, 2005, 03:57:52 PM »
LODJ. I've never heard of a quickening, nor have I ever heard of any  church approving the killing of a child at any stage of pregnancy.
A scenerio. I plant 10 acres of corn. My neighbor gets mad at me and plows up my cornfield before I can harvest it. I feel as if I've lost 10 acres of corn, because it would have been if it hadn't been destroyed. I suppose that the way some of you see it would be that I had lost nothing because the corn had not matured, but in reality, I lost 10 acres of corn. It was corn when I planted it, and would still be corn when I picked it. It's the same with a baby. It is life when it is conceived, not a blob, or whatever you want to call it. I know of no church or religion that doesn't believe that life begins at conception. An old dr once told a patient, while pointing at her belly, if thats not a baby, then you aren't pregnant. POWDERMAN.  :?  :?  :?  :?  :?  :?
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

Only half the people leave an abortion clinic alive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAiOEV0v2RM
What part of ILLEGAL is so hard to understand???
I learned everything about islam I need to know on 9-11-01.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDqmy1cSqgo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u9kieqGppE&feature=related
http://www.illinois.gov/gov/contactthegovernor.cfm

Offline Leverdude

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« Reply #52 on: March 03, 2005, 04:14:36 PM »
Powderman,

A good analogy to be sure.  :-)
Thing is its YOUR corn he killed. Would you be upset if he mowed down his own crops?

Nobody can force a woman to have an abortion, that would clearly be different.

I believe the law here says its ok in the first trimester or 3 months.
I think thats probably a good cutoff point myself. 3 months is more than enuff time to take care of this if its deemed necessary by a woman. If they need longer than that to decide then it probably shouldnt be done IMO.

But like I said I dont see it being my buisness if someone else wants to do this anyway.
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Offline fe352v8

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« Reply #53 on: March 03, 2005, 05:44:03 PM »
I think you might be refering to crowning under some customs and common law a person was not concidered such, until the head or crown was visible.

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Offline powderman

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« Reply #54 on: March 04, 2005, 03:36:06 AM »
LEVERDUDE. No, I wouldn't care if my neighbor destroyed his own corn. Human beings should not own other human beings, and in essence, a woman would have to own her children, the same as a car, jewelry,home, etc. A child, in, or out of the womb is still a human being and should have the right to grow up and mature the same as anybody else. Roe vs wade came about the same time that God was basicly banned from our once great nation. The door was closed on God. Any time a door is closed, another opens. Thats when satan moved in. He convinced mankind that it was OK to kill our unwanted young. I see no difference in killing a baby, or waiting til he, or she, is 14 years old, a child is still being killed.
I read about a widow who was pregnant when her husband died. She was worried about being able to feed another child. She went to her priest and told him of her dilema, she wanted his blessing to abort the baby. He told her he understood and would help her. He said, come back in the morning and bring your 14 year old son George with you. She said, why bring George? He said, it's plain you intend to kill one of your children, I picked him because he eats more. Think about it. POWDERMAN.
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

Only half the people leave an abortion clinic alive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAiOEV0v2RM
What part of ILLEGAL is so hard to understand???
I learned everything about islam I need to know on 9-11-01.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDqmy1cSqgo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u9kieqGppE&feature=related
http://www.illinois.gov/gov/contactthegovernor.cfm

Offline jh45gun

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« Reply #55 on: March 04, 2005, 08:31:18 AM »
Dang if eating more is in the equation I am lucky to be here!  :eek:  :eek:  :eek:
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Offline fe352v8

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« Reply #56 on: March 04, 2005, 08:45:13 AM »
Powderman,

After reading your posts here and on other forums I respect that your beliefs, and feel they are genuine and sincere.  How does one reconcile the view of abortion, as murder, with pre-emptive war, and capitol punishment.  It would seem that if an unborn human life is sacred, so are the lives of those already born.  Not trying to be agumentative just trying to understand the inconsistancy.

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Offline Leverdude

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« Reply #57 on: March 04, 2005, 10:41:05 AM »
Fe,

Thats easy, in the second two circumstances it's either punishment or self defence. I cant think of something more innocent than a baby.
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Offline Dali Llama

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« Reply #58 on: March 04, 2005, 12:21:25 PM »
Quote from: Leverdude


Thats easy, in the second two circumstances it's either punishment or self defence.
That be correct, say Dali Llama. :D
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Offline fe352v8

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« Reply #59 on: March 04, 2005, 01:37:44 PM »
I under stand the rational with capitol punishment.  But it is preemtive war as self defense that I am having a hard time understanding.

life is no joke but funny things happen

jon
life is no joke but funny things happen

jon