What 223 Rem. ammo is best for "self-defense" ???

[NYH1]

I read in a magazine ("S.W.A.T", "Special Weapons for Military & Police" or "Guns & Weapons for Law Enforcement" I can't remember) that Federal and Hornady has special ammo for the 223 Rem. (5.56x45mm NATO) for self-defense, specifically for home defense. I can't seem to find any information about it! The ammo was made to expand fast and transfer most of its energy without over penetration. Anyone know about this ammo or any other ammo that is really good for "home defense" ?

[Ramrod]

I think the Winchester "white box" 45 grain JHP at 3600 fps would work very well in that role, and they are pretty cheap too.

[KF9VH]

I shot one round of Winchester White Box in my AR and it jammed in the chamber. I had to take it to a gun smith to get it out.

NO MORE WHITE BOX IN MY AR!

[SAWgunner]

I like the White box for plinking out of my Bushmaster.


For self defense, Hornady TAP is excellent (It looks to be a V-MAX bullet in a black nickel case), and anything with a Nosler Balisitic tip.  Black Hills makes some good hollowpoints.  I am really impressed with the white box winchester.


SAW

[DEPUTY]

the current preferred load is the winchester 64 psp load (x223r2) has less than 12 inches of penetration.  as well as the federal 62 grain tactical load

[Ramrod]

DEPUTY, how is it that the "preferred" load for limited penetration is a heavy bullet at a lower velocity? This goes against all common knowledge, ie, the high velocity light bullet will expand or blow up and not penetrate.

[IntrepidWizard]

Deputy is alluding to the killing affect do to tumbling.

[DEPUTY]

Ramrod correct, which limits the bullets preformance on heavy clothing and getting deep enough to penetrate to vital organs,

the 64 grain load i describe gets 30 centimeters of penetration, and a huge wound profile

were is a 45-55 grain rnds have limited penetration of around 15-20 centimeters and a very rapid expansion and and fragmetaion  yet lacks the ummfffff , no iam basing this on my test and several other in the leo world and federal level and spec ops anddr reports i have a book full of these notes i had to put together for depts switching to the 223 from 9mm subguns

now depending on your barrel length and twist it makes a differance in performance, my choice is the 64 grain psp.  and under 12 inches of penetration remember most humans are 10inches thick or less

[busguy61]

who carries a .223 anything for self defense anyway.  overpenatration will always be an issue, no matter what bullets/ load you are shooting. If you are concerened about home defense get a short barrel shotgun with a bright light on it(always helps to see what you are shooting at).   If you are concerned with self defense, a smaller pistol, preferably a revolver loaded with gold dots or hydra shocks would be a ultimately better choice.  If you are just wondering what .223 bullets offer the most rapid expansion, try hornandy v-max.   There are many different bullets out there mainly aimed at varmit hunters, that have plastic ballistic tips, and rapid expansion.   If you do not reload, you are limited to whatever you can find at your local ammo store.   Try your own tests at the range.  good luck

[DEPUTY]

busguy61, I should tell you in all fairness before you learn a hard lesson on  the 223 and what you stated about overpenetration i sugjest you do some online research  on 223 as a defensive round! since i have 2 books full of info sitting here in front of me loaded with this info that will detail the info need to explain this and the facts to back it up! the teminal effect of a 223 round in close quaters is one of the most devestating  things to see!  at Gun site a test was conducted and a actuall house was built  3 walls for test 2 interior walls and a third to act as the outside wall od house the only rnds that did not penetrate  were the 223 sp and jhp i use a 223 for home defense as well with a white light,  as well and then benifits of it over a shotgun are 5xs better, easier to control, more rnds if needed! ie muti bad guys, body armor, single handed use is eaiser,  rescue shots if needed (ie captured family member)  less recoil, all family members can use it children small framed females and males who might be recoil shy.

[JohnClif]

I would think that the various 40gr plastic-tipped bullets would be ideal for home defense scenarios. But I also think that you would be adequately served with any 52gr to 55gr pointed soft point or hollow point meant for varmints. After all, bad guys are just two-legged varmints.

These rounds will not overpenetrate, they won't exit a bad guy on a body shot unless your shot is truly glancing, they'll go through body armor, and any upper torso hit should be instantly incapacitating... and will be nonsurvivable.

A 16" AR-15 is shorter than an 18" shotgun, has almost no recoil, holds more rounds, is quicker to reload, is equally devastating against humans, is easier to use for precision shooting (the "hostage rescue" scenario as an earlier poster mentioned)... what's not to love?

In short, the same .223 factory load you'd pick as a coyote hunter concerned about pelt damage would be ideal for home self-defense.

[DEPUTY]

remember the human body is about 8-10 inches in depth and across from com hits, and i lilike the 62-64 grain loads as well at 75 grain tap ammo.

i jsut returned from pat rodgers  class and am taking the next level in a few weeks there yo ulearn what works and what doesnt i have a 3 ring biner full of test on 223 ammo as well first hand knowledge from dr gary roberts on this subject  the varmiter loads dont work that well on heavy layers of clothing

[Dusty Miller]

Why in the name of heaven would anybody use a puny round like the .223 for home defense when there are 12 ga. slugs available? :shock:

[Ramrod]

Why in the name of heaven would anybody use a puny round like the .223 for home defense when there are 12 ga. slugs available? :shock:

Umm, did you read the original post? The question was what .223 ammo was best, not what caliber, or shotgun gauge was best. And you should have caught the part about over-penetration.

DEPUTY>My limited (2) AR-15 experiments on deer (alot like a human in a fur coat) both yielded instant knockdown with chest hits at a little more than 100 yards. Ammo was 55 grain softpoint on the first, and 55 grain fmj on the second. Deer hit with softpoint was still kicking when I got to it so recieved follow up shot in neck. Deer hit with fmj was dead when I got there. Interesting thing was, the only bullet that did not exit was the soft point fired from about 6 inches from deer's neck. Found it under hide on far side. This with an older, slow twist gun. Just a couple real world data points for your studies.

[NYH1]

Why in the name of heaven would anybody use a puny round like the .223 for home defense when there are 12 ga. slugs available? :shock:

The "puny" 223  is extremely effective on a person when the right ammo is used. Don't confuse the 223 Rem. with good expandable bullets with the 5.56x45mm NATO "full medal jacket" bullets, there completely different. The 223 Rem. is a lot better then any of our "handgun service rounds".

[Dusty Miller]

Hey guys, I wuz just stirr'n the pot a bit!  Truth of the matter is a 60+ gr. 223 HP bullet clipping along at 3000+ fps should be extremely effective, especially since there are lots of semi-autos available in that caliber and who the  heck would not keep pouring in the lead as long as the threat continued?

[simplicity]

I have 60 nosler partitions for home defense @about 2900fps. I honestly think that the tap amunition is honestly nothing more then normal varmint ammo. I also think any varmint ammo would work great as self defense ammo where over penetration in a urban enviroment was a issue. Most varmint ammo is only really designed to penetrate really no more then 4-8 inches depending on bullet weight aka a woodchuck verse a coyote. Reason why I chose the 60np was because I thought the rapid exspansion of the nose would be great as far as wound channel went and the solid base incase I had to shoot through a door. I know not many cases where going through a door is needed but I'm trying to keep every situation in veiw.

[S.S.]

Any of the super fast polymer tip 5.56 mm projectiles
will create a terrible surface wound and a pretty substantial hydrostatic
shockwave. It is not a bad defensive round if you can get a reliable
weapon for it. Anything AR like does not qualify in my experience.
If someone insists on using one for defense, carry a good ol' 1911
to save your butt for long enough to clear the jams. Thats what I did
and it worked out ok.

[NYH1]

.
If someone insists on using one for defense, carry a good ol' 1911
to save your butt for long enough to clear the jams. Thats what I did
and it worked out ok.

Then I guess I'll also have to carry one of my Glock's so I'll be able to save my butt when the  good ol' 1911 jams, which will probaby happen before my AR does! :shock:

[257 roberts]

I've seen three people shot with the 223 round it has to be seen to be belived it is a wicked round

[NYH1]

I've seen three people shot with the 223 round it has to be seen to be belived it is a wicked round

257 roberts, if you don't mind, what type of ammo was used? :grin:

[S.S.]

Never had my 1911 jam, not even one. Had a couple of stovepipes
in my Glock but I still trust it. But I wouldn't take any type of AR  into combat again. My own personal experience has shown me that they are a piece of junk. Risk your life with one if you wish, I am just saying I will never carry one again. Way too many good men and now women
have died because of that piece of junk, It's sorry reputation speaks for itself. Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to start an arguement.
I just feel that strongly against those firearms. I keep hearing that "The M6A1.2 etc. etc. is far better a firearm than it used to be, the bugs are worked out of it now. Thats all well and good but I have spoke to a lot of troops returning from the Persian Gulf area who thought it was great in training but found it as difficult to keep working as we did in battle.
Unfortunately, there is no "time out" in combat to keep an enemy from shooting at you while you break down your weapon for cleaning. I know of a soldier in Afghanistan who took a Model 1898 Mauser 8mm from a weapons cache they found and carried it instead of his issue weapon.
Statement is as follows "It fires when you pull the trigger, It will reach them where they are and it will kill what it hits" ...Man what a concept!
A battle rifle that is capable of winning the fight... I know of several more
who did the same thing when they were helping the Kurds but they could not talk too much about it due to it being a more classified operation. I could tell they were Mausers from the pictures but I could not tell the exact models..One carred a #4 Enfield too. It is a sad state of affairs when our troops have to resort to battle field "Pick-ups" to have a properly functioning weapon with some killing power and reach.

[Savage]

S Summer,
I think the M-16 got it's bad rep from the early issue rifles of the 60s. I trust my ARs completely as they have earned it! Why anyone would choose an Enfield or Mauser bolt gun in today's combat  over the much more readily available, and much more firepower superior, totally reliable  AK, is beyond me.  Perhaps for specialzed applications with optics for sniping? True the AR is much more prone to stopages in dirty invironments than the AK, but still is reliable with proper care. As a home defense weapon, IMO, it's about as good as it gets!
Savage

[257 roberts]

New York Hunter, the ammo is a Federal brand (LEO) and its loaded with a 50gr. Seirra GameKing bullet.

[NYH1]

New York Hunter, the ammo is a Federal brand (LEO) and its loaded with a 50gr. Seirra GameKing bullet.

Thanks 257

[S.S.]

I do not have anything against the 5.56 as a short to medium range combat round. But as for the AR/M-16 variations, I have had them fail far too many times to ever be convinced otherwise on their reliability. And as for picking up an AK instead of the other rifles mentioned, They said an AK will draw friendly fire in a heartbeat. I did see one of them with a drum fed RPD though. That is a beautiful piece of equipment.

[Skeeterbaymac]

I  guess I will give my observations on this subject.

  I have also read a lot about how wondrful the 223 round is for a self defense caliber. Now I own a couple and I am not a m-16 or 223 hater.  But I have had a few real life situations involving the 223/556 on human targets and my observations did not back up what I have read.

  One individual I was involved with was hit once in the upper left chest, approx., 3 inches left of dead center and about an 1 1/2 inches high. The gun was combat zeroed, which accounted for it not being a dead center hit. If it had been a normal issue weapon it would have been sighted in (just don't want anyone thinking how did ya miss dead center at 40 yards stress and not a personal weapon did play a part). Anyhow this individual was about 40 yards away when hit the first time and running right head on into the gun. He was about 5' 11" and near 160-170 lbs. When hit he stumbled front ward but remained on his feet and regained his full speed run within about three or four steps.  He closed to near 25 yds When hit again. This shot was off but about an inch closer to center than the first.  This time the individual stumbled and fell forward off his feet (almost like being hit in the back from behind).  When rolled over the individual was still very much alive,  a bit in shock/dazed. But alive and trying to get back to his feet.  Now this was NOT with full metal jacket.  This was with a standard Winchester PSP load (I do not recal if it was 50 some grain or a 60 some grain load but I do remember it was a winchester PSP comercial round). Had this individual been hit with a 12 gauge slug I think the out come after the first hit, would have been different.  I can't say for sure but I bet my last dollar he would have been down after hit number one.   Now the other human targets I  have been involved with were mostly all hit with 556 full metal jacket. Most of the results were near the same as the guy hit with the winchester PSP stuff. Not once did I ever see the TV show knock the guy off his feet backward threw the door way stuff! We get conditioned from TV to expect it, and you stand there in disbelief when it don't happen like TV.

 I have heard all the stories of tumbling bullets and hydra shock and dead tissue for X number of inches around the wound and the heart stopping from a hit to the arm and all that other stuff.  I just never have seen it on a human target.  I didn't do any medical exam or any such thing so I can't say what the bullet did to this guys insides, but the enterance holes were not much bigger than the bullet, and the exit holes in his T shirt were not much bigger than dimes.  Now I am not saying all these experts that write these articles are wrong. God knows they are smarter than me and have done more test than I, (I have done 0 tests).  I am just giving you my experiance with the round on human targets. I have a M-4 loaded with 62 grn stuff near my bed right now.  I also have a sig 45 auto with Fed HS, but based on all my past use I don't expect either to make a one shot stops on an intruder.  If it does great but I wont stand there and think he didn't fall. I will keep making hit's until he's no longer a threat.

 Lunch time is way over  and it' time to get back to work.

[Plink]

Extreme Shock is mall ninja ammo. It doesn't take a genius to see all the BS in their advertising.

[DEPUTY]

Poor hits make  poor stoping

if the trigger is pressed once it needs ot be pressed 2 to 3 times no matter what.... that is were training takes over in one case it was 15 yds and 4 hits com and he was dead before the 3rd or 4th hit him  the shooter is an accomplished man and very fast on the trigger  if you press it once yah press it  3 times no matter what unless its  brain box shot period. to many factors what was the clothing  what was he on if anything etc.... i have to many case files on record that have been  very good with that load in the 64 grain psp ;loading

[257 roberts]

The three wounds that I saw were not body shots.
One was under the left eye on one and the back of the head( low) and the other was in the lower leg(calf muscle) all were nasty.