Author Topic: Juvenile death penalty banned  (Read 2231 times)

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Offline Dali Llama

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Juvenile death penalty banned
« on: March 02, 2005, 01:08:19 AM »
Juvenile death penalty banned

Wednesday, March 02, 2005
CARLA CROWDER
News staff writer
 
The U.S. Supreme Court on Tuesday barred states from executing people who were under 18 when they committed their crimes, vacating 72 death sentences, including 13 in Alabama.

In a 5-4 decision, the court found that executing juveniles was unconstitutionally cruel and that the death penalty must be reserved for the worst offenders, a category that cannot include people who have not reached adulthood.

Citing scientific and sociological studies, the court said that juveniles are more immature, irresponsible and susceptible to negative influences than adults.

"The age of 18 is the point where society draws the line for many purposes between childhood and adulthood. It is, we conclude, the age at which the line for death eligibility ought to rest," Justice Anthony Kennedy wrote for the majority.

The Roper v. Simmons decision, an appeal out of Missouri, reverses a 1989 high court decision and strikes the second major blow to death penalty supporters in three years. Justices banned the execution of the mentally retarded in 2002.

Justices said that the United States' practice of executing juvenile criminals is so out of line with other developed countries that it is no longer acceptable. The United States has stood virtually alone in sanctioning such executions, wrote Kennedy, who voted 16 years ago to continue the executions. Iran, Pakistan, China and Saudi Arabia are the only other countries still putting juveniles to death.


`Evolving standards':

Only 19 states allow the juvenile death penalty, and those states rarely use it, justices said. They cited "evolving standards of decency that mark the progress of a maturing society to determine which punishments are so disproportionate as to be cruel and unusual."

In the minority dissent, Justice Antonin Scalia accused other justices of cherry-picking studies that supported their views and disputed that a national consensus exists. The appropriateness of capital punishment should be determined by individual states, he said, not "the subjective views of five members of this court and like-minded foreigners."
Alabama has the country's second-highest number of people who committed their crimes as 16- or 17-year-olds on Death Row, behind Texas.

Prosecutors throughout Alabama also expressed disappointment that Tuesday's ruling means death sentences will not be an option for dozens of teenagers under indictment for capital murder.

"Our fight against these crimes and those who commit them has one less tool today," Alabama Attorney General Troy King wrote in a statement. King previously wrote a brief in the Missouri case and listed details of six Alabama cases that he said supported the need to execute teens.


Life without parole:

Several defense lawyers and advocates against capital punishment said they were pleased with the ruling.

"It's very significant anytime 8 percent of people under sentence of death have their death sentence overturned," said Bryan Stevenson, executive director of the Equal Justice Initiative, a Montgomery law firm that represents poor people on Death Row.

"Every human being has the possibility for redemption and change, and I think with kids it's especially important to recognize that," Stevenson said.

The decision means the 13 Alabamians will be sentenced to life without parole and will likely die in prison.

The men affected were lining up at Holman Prison phones Tuesday to call their lawyers. They will not be immediately removed from Death Row. But they can petition whatever court their appeal is before and have the sentence changed to life without parole, said attorney general's office spokesman Chris Bence.

Several men convicted in Birmingham metro-area cases will be removed from Death Row. Among them is Mark Duke of Pelham, who was 16 when he killed his father, his father's girlfriend and her two young daughters. The girls' necks were slashed.

Duke's attorney, John Lentine, a past president of the Alabama Criminal Defense Lawyers Association, said his client is one of those who was severely abused by his father as a child.

"The reality is children aren't born monsters, they're made that way," Lentine said.


`Exceptional cases':


Marcus Pressley, who at 17 shot and killed two people in robbery-murders in Jefferson and Shelby counties, also will have his sentence commuted.

Shelby County Chief Assistant District Attorney Bill Bostick said the office informed victims' families of the decision. "They, of course, are extremely disappointed, as are we," Bostick said.

The Supreme Court's four most liberal justices, John Paul Stevens, David H. Souter, Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Steven Breyer, were joined by Kennedy in the vote to ban capital punishment for juveniles.

Chief Justice William Rehnquist and justices Scalia, Clarence Thomas and Sandra Day O'Connor voted to uphold the executions.

In Scalia's dissent, he mentioned an Alabama case in which four teenagers picked up a hitchhiker near Trussville, kicked and stomped her, then sexually assaulted and mutilated her corpse. He called it a "monstrous act" and argued that juries should treat "exceptional cases in an exceptional way."
He said that the majority "looks to scientific and sociological studies, picking and choosing those that support its position. It never explains why those particular studies are scientifically sound; none was ever entered into evidence or tested in an adversarial proceeding."

The decision blocks any state from attempting to get death for convicted Washington sniper Lee Boyd Malvo. Montgomery authorities have tried to bring him to trial in Alabama, where he is accused in the shooting death of a liquor store manager in Montgomery on Sept. 21, 2002. Malvo was 17 at the time. Alabama has not executed a juvenile offender since 1961.

The Associated Press contributed to this report. ccrowder@bhamnews.com
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Offline jh45gun

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« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2005, 03:58:20 AM »
Blankety blank blank blankety blank liberal judges!  :x
Said I never had much use for one, never said I didn't know how to use it.

Offline fe352v8

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« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2005, 09:50:47 AM »
Yes it is a real shame that the Supremes decided that US was not going to follow contries like, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, China, and all those other countries that revere justice and law.

In deed, if we could only lean far enough to the right, so as to be unable to see the sun, our legal system could almost be as good as theirs, but alas we have liberal judges that keep pushing us into the 21 century, real shame.

By the way with the appeals invoved in a death penalty case it costs about 3 million to execute someone, if you lock them up for 60 years it cost about 1.2 million.  Makes you yearn for the days lynching, when right was right and wrong was wrong, those were the good old days indeed.

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Offline Dali Llama

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« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2005, 12:31:42 PM »
Quote from: fe352v8
it costs about 3 million to execute someone, if you lock them up for 60 years it cost about 1.2 million.  
From whence do fe352v8 derive such statistics, ask Dali Llama? :?
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Offline Leverdude

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« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2005, 12:36:49 PM »
Quote
Several men convicted in Birmingham metro-area cases will be removed from Death Row. Among them is Mark Duke of Pelham, who was 16 when he killed his father, his father's girlfriend and her two young daughters. The girls' necks were slashed.


This kid doesnt deserve to die?

Your right. Maybe we should just send all our guys on death row  to Iraq.  :?   Its much cheaper there as they use simpler tools & they dont seem to mind killing Americans so we might as well send them some that have it coming.
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Offline Dali Llama

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« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2005, 01:30:35 PM »
Quote from: Leverdude
Quote
Several men convicted in Birmingham metro-area cases will be removed from Death Row. Among them is Mark Duke of Pelham, who was 16 when he killed his father, his father's girlfriend and her two young daughters. The girls' necks were slashed.


This kid doesnt deserve to die?

As much or moreso than did his four victims, opine Dali Llama. :evil:  :twisted:  :x
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Offline powderman

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« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2005, 04:29:17 PM »
A 14 year old will kill you just as dead as a 40 year old, do it quicker, and with no remorse. POWDERMAN.  :x  :x  :x  :x  :x  :x
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

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Offline fe352v8

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« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2005, 06:19:46 PM »
Dali

for cost figures try these links, Kansas Legislature, which if anyone views as liberal they are so far right that they would be off the planet.  Another relating to costs is available at the Oklahoma Department of Corrections, again Ive never heard them refered to as liberal.

www.kslegislature.org/postaudit/audits_perform/04pa03a.pdf

www.doc.state.ok.us/DOCS/Facts%20at%20a%20glance/0407faagweb.pdf.

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Offline Leverdude

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« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2005, 04:00:54 PM »
Woulnt cost so derned much if the liberals would let you get it over with.
We drag it on too long. Was just a case here in CT a month or so ago, this guy's been on death row so long HE wants to get it done, well his dad & lawyer got a stay of execution so the courts can decide if he's sane enuff to be put to death.  :?   The way I see it, a crime is a crime & a punshment is a punishment. Sanity isn't real relavent. Not in a capital case anyhow.  If we're talking about a guy who wont benefit from rehabilitation on account of sanity then maybe they oughtta flip the switch on them too.
Put some real fear in the criminals in our country again.
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Offline fe352v8

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« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2005, 05:36:52 PM »
The initial trial usually cost almost twice as much as a non-capitol case, then you have a penalty phase.  These trials in total cost in Kansas a mean of 1.2 million, and we have not executed anyone since reinstating the death penalty in 1994.

As for deterence who knows, in the 38 states having a death penalty, the murder rate is higher (FBI crime statistics).  This however is mis-leading due to the lack of a homogeneous sample, the only thing some of these states have in common is being states.

My opposition to the death penalty, is based on simple economics, under our legal system, and with a time value calculation it is cheaper to imprison someone with no parole for the rest of their life than to execute them.  Of course I am a liberal, and find myself in the strange position of calling for responcible spending.  What happened to conservative fiscal responcibility, they control congress and have the white house, wonder how Clinton did this?

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Offline Dali Llama

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« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2005, 01:07:07 AM »
Quote from: fe352v8
I am a liberal, and find myself in the strange position of calling for responcible spending.  
Dali Llama say that liberal person very regularly find self in strange position. :-)
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Offline gino

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« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2005, 06:47:46 AM »
I used to be a strong supporter of the death penalty in general until in my state (IL) 13 people on death row were found to be innocent now I have my doubts. Regarding the age thing, where do you draw the line? 12? 14? 16? 18? Society sends mixed messages, at 18 you can vote but you can't buy a beer, at 16 you can drive but you can't vote. I'd hate to be the one making the decision as to where the "line" is.
gino

Offline fe352v8

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« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2005, 08:30:25 AM »
Dali,

My ex-wife said the same thing

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Offline Dali Llama

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« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2005, 12:18:59 PM »
Quote from: fe352v8
Dali,

My ex-wife said the same thing

Biannually, ask Dali Llama? :grin:
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Offline fe352v8

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« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2005, 01:30:07 PM »
Dali,

I am a liberal, you know amoral, over-sexed, irresponsible.  Sometimes I vote democrat, and you know the difference between democrats and republicans; democrats like to have sex a lot, and republicans like talk about it a lot but do not want anyone to have sex.  

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Offline C1PNR

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« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2005, 03:00:37 PM »
But not that line in the sand Saddam talked about. :shock:

People know the difference between right and wrong by the age of 8.  Once they are 8 years old and commit a crime, they should be punished in the same manner as if they were 40. :evil:

The Feds have no business in the business of the States.  The death penalty is a subject for the individual States to regulate, just as the age and legal requirements to be issued a license to operate motor vehicles. :?

I have a few other opinions, however, I'll reserve them for the present. :D
Regards,

WE

Offline fe352v8

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« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2005, 09:48:54 PM »
You will be happy to know that Somalia is one of the few if not the only country in the world that shares the opinion that minors and adults should be punished alike.

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Offline magooch

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« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2005, 04:50:53 AM »
Should the youthful murderer also be exempt from life in prison?

I'm not against the death penalty for anyone above the age of about 12, but I've served on enough juries to know that the jury system is often seriously flawed.

 I've come to believe that the death penalty should be reserved for those who are guilty beyond any doubt what-so-ever.  That would restrict it to those who confess, or those caught red-handed.  Even in these instances there can be mitigating circumstances that should delete the death penalty.
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Offline Dali Llama

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« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2005, 05:26:36 AM »
Quote from: fe352v8
Dali,

I am a liberal, you know amoral, over-sexed, irresponsible.  Sometimes I vote democrat, and you know the difference between democrats and republicans; democrats like to have sex a lot, and republicans like talk about it a lot but do not want anyone to have sex.  

Dali Llama say that fe352v8 be painting with awfully broad brush.
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Offline fe352v8

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« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2005, 09:33:06 AM »
Dali,

Not quite, Instead of buying a new, Do not Debate an Issue, Debase the Speaker Spray gun, I bought a used muck rake from Karl Rove.  Guess I gave too much money to the ACLU.  I am saving up to buy Rush's old spray gun though.

life is no joke but funny things happen

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life is no joke but funny things happen

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Offline Dali Llama

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« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2005, 06:12:10 AM »
Quote from: fe352v8
Dali,

I bought a used muck rake from Karl Rove.  
Do that be same one Teddy Kennedy sold at Annual Chappaquiddick Lifeguard Day garage sale, ask Dali Llama? :?
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Offline fe352v8

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« Reply #21 on: March 06, 2005, 02:27:36 PM »
Ah I see you are familiar with the muck rake of destiny

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Offline Dali Llama

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« Reply #22 on: March 06, 2005, 03:55:12 PM »
Quote from: fe352v8
Ah I see you are familiar with the muck rake of destiny

:?  :?  :?
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Offline fe352v8

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« Reply #23 on: March 06, 2005, 08:01:09 PM »
Dali,

If the emoticons, :?,indicates confusion with my response, please accept my humble apologies, I was alluding to the spear of destiny.  The legend is that the spear pierced Christ's side during the crucifixtion and that who ever posses it may rule the world.  I believe it is in a museum in Austria, so much for legends and my allusion.

life is no joke but funny things happen

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Offline Dali Llama

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« Reply #24 on: March 07, 2005, 12:57:41 AM »
Quote from: fe352v8
Dali,

If the emoticons, :?,indicates confusion with my response, please accept my humble apologies, I was alluding to the spear of destiny.  The legend is that the spear pierced Christ's side during the crucifixtion and that who ever posses it may rule the world.  
So, do Teddy Kennedy possess spear of destiny or rule world, ask Dali Llama? :?
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Offline JPSaxMan

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« Reply #25 on: March 07, 2005, 01:27:42 AM »
Quote from: Dali Llama
Quote from: fe352v8
Dali,

If the emoticons, :?,indicates confusion with my response, please accept my humble apologies, I was alluding to the spear of destiny.  The legend is that the spear pierced Christ's side during the crucifixtion and that who ever posses it may rule the world.  
So, do Teddy Kennedy possess spear of destiny or rule world, ask Dali Llama? :?


Oh Good Lord, alright, that's it. I'm burying all of my guns except my semi, this way I can fight em off with it. I ain't lettin them dumocraps have my guns. After all, Ted Kennedy rules the world, don't he?  :) They'll have my guns allright...once they get through me first :twisted:.

Sorry, just had to put a lil blurb in there bout Ted Kennedy.

I seem to find myself jumping the fence on a lot of these topics. I really don't take a side to them, because I see both sides of the issue. In this case, you're dealing with giving a teenager the death penalty. Doesn't sound very morally right, but of course, if he committed murder, why not? I'm kinda flip floppy on the death penalty itself. I see it's purpose, and why not to let people get the real punishment they deserve to rot in prison, but I see it has flaws. Suppose someone is wrongly convicted of a crime (yes, it has happened) then that person is put to death? If that were your son or daughter or wife or husband or brother or sister, I'm sure you wouldn't be too happy. I know I wouldn't be :evil: . Just my :money:.  :D
JP

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Proverbs 3:5 - Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding

Offline powderman

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« Reply #26 on: March 07, 2005, 04:58:25 AM »
If the legal system was also a true justice system I might see capitol punishment for young offenders differently. As it is now, there are too many murders committed by so called rehabilitated murderers. At least the death penalty stops them from killing again. We read almost daily of paroled killers killing again. It has to stop, fry them. POWDERMAN.  :x  :x  :x  :x  :x  :x
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

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Offline jh45gun

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« Reply #27 on: March 07, 2005, 06:08:26 AM »
The premise it cost more to execute some one than to keep them for life does not make sense. Maybe the prisons do not want us to know what it cost so they can keep these folks for life and make more money out of it?????? Just because some one states some figures does not mean it is true as we all have seen polls and numbers manipulated to the view of the person doing the manipulating. There should be a one year limit on death sentences and that should be enough time to run DNA test and for the lawyers and courts to do their appeals. IF not elect more judges as there are enough lawyers these days to pick from!  :twisted:
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Offline Dali Llama

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« Reply #28 on: March 08, 2005, 07:31:37 AM »
Quote from: jh45gun
we all have seen polls and numbers manipulated to the view of the person doing the manipulating.
Dali Llama say that remind him of ancient Tibetan proverb which state that "statistics do not lie, statisticians do." :grin:  :grin:  :grin:
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Offline fe352v8

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« Reply #29 on: March 09, 2005, 08:22:43 PM »
I have no moral objection to the death penalty.  Simple fact is under our current legal system it costs more to impose than life imprisonment.  Call your local DA and ask him the difference in costs.

I would suggest to offset the higher costs that states be allowed sell viewing rights for executions on pay for view.  You get income, plus if you want the death penalty to be more of scocial deterent this would provide a graphic demonstration of the consequences of committing a crime.

Naturally you need a method alittle more action packed than lethal injection.  My preference is for beheading, action packed, dramatic, and colorful.

life is no joke but funny things happen

jon
life is no joke but funny things happen

jon