HEAD SHOTS?

[Mrserenity]

Hi, when speaking of small caliber handguns .22 & .25 I hear individuals recommend head (face) & neck shots.  What happens (what is the effect) when someone is shot in the face or neck?  Does the face bones break and smash into the eye or brain?  In the neck is the windpipe crushed?  Just curious because I hear individuals recommend shooting in these areas when trying to stop an attack.  Also is a .25 powerful enough to do any real damage to the face and neck to stop an attack?

[KN]

Both of those calibers are dismal performers for personal protection. But if thats all you have then a head shot would probably be better than any thing else. It would be difficult to shoot back after being shot in the head. The down side to it is that a head shot is much more difficult to acomplish under stress than a center mass. Your chances of missing are greater.  KN

[Dan Chamberlain]

This is a bag of worms!  The .25 has killed a lot of people over the years, but there are plenty of cases where it failed to penetrate the head, particularly when the shot is on the forehead and not at 90 degrees.  The .22lr has problems in this area as well, but if a .22 or .25 is all you have, then the head offers the greatest potential for incapacitation.  On the other hand, there are enough annecdotes of men walking into the emergency rooms under their own power with projectiles from these guns inside their craniums.

I with I could recommend one, but since you have lumpted the .22 and .25 together, you are probably talking about one of the pocket pistols in either caliber.  If one had to have a .22 for defense, I'd recommend getting a real pistol in that caliber.  Either a Ruger semi-auto or a S&W revolver.

Dan C

[BlkHawk73]

:roll: In the event you're going to be in a sitution where a shot is to be fired in self defence, hitting the target is most important.  It's much easier to hit a larger area (torso) than a small area (head) especially if it's moving.  Practing for defence shooting is fine but you're proberly shooting at stationary targets.  Try a moving target and see how easy it is to hit a head sized area.  Now a rythmically moving one is preety easy too, you get the rythem down.  Do it on a randomly moving target, whcih your attacker would be, and it's a whole new shootin' match - pun intended.  Now throw the bullet size into the mix.  A really small projctile being aimed in a heated moment at a ramdomly moving target, that head is really small now.  A larger projectile is much more likely to hit something of importance.  Larger bullet aimed at a fairly large area (torso) gives much better hit percentage and a pretty good chance of incapcitating the target or atleast slowing it down.  Remember you don't "shoot to kill" you "shoot to end the conflict".  :wink:

[rockbilly]

:eek: The .22 short has been the choice for hit men around the world.  They usually make a head shot, the bullet penetrates the skull and makes oatmeal of the brain.  I think everyone from the gangsters of the 20s to the CIA has used them.  I would think the .25 would also work, however, I had a buddy that was shot in the head with a .25 when he was about 17-18 years old, an accident, kids playing with a loaded gun.  He lived to tell about it, but it took several years before he was as sharp mentally as he was before being shot.

Personally, I would prefer something much larger even tho I have been know to carry a .25.

[Dusty Miller]

I think most of your hitmen put that .22 short into the BACK of the head where it has a much better chance of penetrating.

[redneckd1]

Ideally you should put 2 to the chest and then one to the head, but what are the chances that an attacker will cooperate? If you want to defend yourself with a small caliber handgun, regardless of the reason, your practice should consist of shooting the torso while backing up and getting out of harms way. An attacker may keep coming at you, but will have a hard time with several rounds in his torso. Just my two cents.
Cheers,
R

[Japle]

I once shot a 60 lb sow right between the eyes with a Ruger .22 pistol.  The bullet bounced off.  
Unless you can get a nearly 90-degree angle on the skull, .22, .25, .32 and similar stuff is likley to fail to penetrate and just skid around under the scalp.
Jim Cirillo tells a story of two cops who shot a perp at point-blank range with .38 snubbies and 158gr RNL ammo.  They hit him in the head 11 times.  One of the bullets ended up in the guy's nasal passage and fell out when he blew his nose.  None of the rest penetrated the skull at all.  The perp walked out to the ambulance.  
If you can hit the eye socket, you have a good chance.  You're also a better shot than I am.  People you're shooting at do not tend to hold their heads nice and still while you're lining up your sights!  
The smallest gun I'm willing to carry is a KelTec .380 loaded with CorBon ammo.  I intend to shoot for the high chest - top of the heart/aorta.  

John
Cape Canaveral

[ed1921]

I think the recomendation for head shots in those calibers comes from the fact that it is assumed they are last resort weapons & any encounter is likely to be up close & personal.

[leverfan]

There was a fellow in my college dorm that had been shot in the head at close range with a 22 lr.  Aside from being an art major, there was no sign of any permanent damage.  It seems the bullet slid between the scalp and the skull, leaving a furrow you could feel on the side of his head, but it never actually penetrated into the brain cavity.  There's at least one mafia hit man that took two 22 rounds to the back of his head, beat the hell out of his would-be killers, and turned state's evidence.  Stories like those abound, involving both the 22 lr and the 25 ACP, which has convinced me that 32 ACP is the absolute rock-bottom minimum for carry.  9mm luger may be a better minimum if you travel/work/live in a higher risk area.

[Mikey]

When you deal with small caliber handguns that do not pack a lot of punch you are limited to soft tissues for the best effect.  In order to hit those areas you have to be pretty good with what you're carrying, which means a lot of practice.  

Head shots are not always as effective as they should be regardless if a .22lr or 25acp, especially if the bullet strike is at less than 90 degress, or straight on.  

Soft tissue areas are from the bottom of the sternum to the groin.  Even a 22 to the breadbasket often takes enough wind out of the sails to give you the opportunity to vacate the area.  Two or more are better than one.  

Soft tissue areas are also found from the top of the sternum to the eyes but more preferably from the top of the sternum to the bottom of the chin.  

I've seen small 25s that have been silenced and used quite effectively.  Same for 22lrs.  

However, all of that being said, both are near useless against a drunk or someone drugged up as they can or seem to be able to tolerate a lot of pain.  In a situation like that I would opt for soft tissue opportunities.  Mikey.

[Japle]

Aside from being an art major, there was no sign of any permanent damage.

   :-D  :lol:  

John
Cape Canaveral

[Dusty Miller]

I'm not a 9mm fan but the truth of the matter is that a +P in that caliber is a flat out nasty weapon and there are some fairly small guns that'll handle the load.  Why not go with something that has a proven track record?

[volshooter]

Due to my lack of experience between .22, .25's on humans I won't weigh in. I do have knowledge of .22 lr's on big game. Round here poachers use CCI stingers for one shot kills on black bear and deer. The eye and under the ear are favorite targets. Neck shots on deer are used up close but not on bear. My advice for any cal. would be center mass for two legged varmits. I am not a poacher but I have detailed knowledge of their methods.
Rick

[Vern Humphrey]

Due to my lack of experience between .22, .25's on humans I won't weigh in. I do have knowledge of .22 lr's on big game. Round here poachers use CCI stingers for one shot kills on black bear and deer. The eye and under the ear are favorite targets. Neck shots on deer are used up close but not on bear. My advice for any cal. would be center mass for two legged varmits. I am not a poacher but I have detailed knowledge of their methods.
Rick

The poacher is the aggressor, and can pick and choose the time and place.  It's a lot different if you're the defender!

I read an article by a gun writer on a .22, where he extoled the little gun, saying he'd shoot an attacker "in the tear duct."

Yeah -- and it'll rain thousand-dollar bills, too.

[volshooter]

Common sense agrees with you Vern, so do I. I only wanted to relate my personal experience as to killing power in the area of .22's. If a .22 is all I had then it would have to do. Know what I mean Vern?
Rick

[papajohn428]

I'm pretty sure the remark about shooting at the tear duct was meant to imply that if you aim there, you're likely to get a bullet into the eye socket.  FBI Sniper school taught us to aim for the bridge of the nose at long range with a hi-powered rifle, i.e. a .223 or 22-250.  If you hit the nose, the bullet punches straight into the brain, if you miss by an inch or two the bullet will generally deflect into the eye socket, same result.  Unless you're using a .308, shooting at the forehead is not a good idea, bullets tend to skid off the skull unless the hit is perpendicular to the bone.  And when dealing with small caliber pistols, my best shot would be the eye sockets, or under the chin, ranging up into the brain.  The problem is, in most close encounters, if your opponent realizes you're about to shoot, he'll drop his chin and/or duck his head.  Then it's time to put as many shots into the chest as you can, fast.  Then run like hell, while he's assessing the damage!

Papajohn

[Vern Humphrey]

Common sense agrees with you Vern, so do I. I only wanted to relate my personal experience as to killing power in the area of .22's. If a .22 is all I had then it would have to do. Know what I mean Vern?
Rick

A long ago I was involved in a SERE (Survival, Evasion , Resistance and Escape) symposium.  People kept bringing up flimsy, worthless junk as "survival tools."  When challenged, they'd say, "In a survival situation, you'll take what you can get."

Finally a Captain said, "WE aren't in a survival situation.  We're sitting on our butts in an air-conditioned room, selecting what some OTHER poor guy is going to have when HIS butt's on the line."

So my position is, when talking about what you would use when the chips are down, figure out what would be the BEST choice and make it then -- in the air-conditioned room, before your anatomy is on the line.

[Vern Humphrey]

I'm pretty sure the remark about shooting at the tear duct was meant to imply that if you aim there, you're likely to get a bullet into the eye socket.

Or miss and die.  Remember, this is up close and personal, with a tiny .22 pistol.

If one party in a fight is shooting at the tear duct, and the other is shooting center of mass, who is most likely to get a hit.

FBI Sniper school taught us to aim for the bridge of the nose at long range with a hi-powered rifle, i.e. a .223 or 22-250.  If you hit the nose, the bullet punches straight into the brain, if you miss by an inch or two the bullet will generally deflect into the eye socket, same result.

With a rifle, and a scope, taking my shot -- I would agree.

But in a fast-moving situation, no.  After all, how many deer hunters routinely shoot deer though the eye -- or even in the head?

In hunting, you have to take the shot you get.  In a confrontation, you likewise have to shoot fast and take your best chance.

Unless you're using a .308, shooting at the forehead is not a good idea, bullets tend to skid off the skull unless the hit is perpendicular to the bone.  And when dealing with small caliber pistols, my best shot would be the eye sockets, or under the chin, ranging up into the brain.  The problem is, in most close encounters, if your opponent realizes you're about to shoot, he'll drop his chin and/or duck his head.  Then it's time to put as many shots into the chest as you can, fast.  Then run like hell, while he's assessing the damage!

Papajohn

I once stepped over a man who had been hit repeatedly with an M16.  He tried to shoot me in the baca, and if a man following me hadn't been quick, I wouldn't be writing this.

[volshooter]

When I'm tree rat hunting a .22 is all I'm gonna carry. The big iron has to stay home. I would not choose a .22 or .25 for a protection. The .380 is the bare bone minium and only when clothing does not allow full size carry. Yep, I carry a mouse gun in my vest when I'm riding the motorcycle, guilty. Ever try to ride a bike all day with a 1911 in the back of your pants?? Even compact models leave an .....impression....on you. shoulder holster carry ain't cool when your in a crowd of 1500 bikers.
Know what I mean Vern?

Rick

[Vern Humphrey]

When I'm squirrel hunting, I'm usually carrying my Kimber M82 and on my own property.  I may or may not have a sidearm -- but it's unlikely I'd be in a face-to-face confrontation, and that rifle will do whatever has to be done at somewhat longer ranges.

Usually, I carry a full-size M1911 (a Kimber), but sometimes a Colt Detective Special (the latter goes in a belt pouch when backpacking.)

I don't NEED to carry a flea-weight .22 snubbie, and therefore don't worry about having to shoot someone "in the tear duct."

[Savage]

Can't believe anyone thinks they can make reliable head shots under stress with a flea gun! Any gun is better than none, carry what you will, but don't delude yourself into thinking you can make head shots under stress. If you have to use one, draw the damn thing, point at center mass and empty it! Sometimes the noise and flash alone will terminate the attack.
Savage

[Vern Humphrey]

As I said, if you have to make a head shot (and with a .22 LR handgun, even a hit in the head is not a sure  thing) and all he has to do is get a torso hit -- who do you think will win? :eek:

[jgalar]

As someone else mentioned the 380 would be the lowest powered round that I would recommend. Forget head shots unless you plan on executing someone. There have been patrol car mounted video cams showing officers and perps exchanging 10  or more shots at each other from close range and neither made any hits. Shoot for the torso with an adequate round and keep shooting till the threat is over.

Mrserenity, I know from previous posts that you are of slight stature and don't like recoil. You keep asking the same question in different ways. The replies you receive are always the same - If you want a firearm to use as a defensive weapon it must be of sufficient power.

Buy a 38 spl shooting revolver and practice with it!

[Doc TH]

First, the back of the skull has much thicker bone than the front.  The sides have the thinnest.
Second, in most firefights, the majority of shooters have low hit percentages.
Third, bullets entering the face have a good likelihood of causing intense pain & discomfort (punch in the nose hurts more than punch in arm or chest).
Fourth, assassinations using 22s to head are almost always successful, but shooter has the initiative here.
Fifth, the Mossad often use 22s as antipersonnel weapons.
Sixth, anecdotes and stories are just that.  Take them all with a grain of salt.
Bottom line: 22s can be very effective in the right circumstances; the right circumstances may not exist in a self-defense situation.  Use the biggest gun available.  If the biggest is a 22 and you can hit what you're aiming at, you may come out OK.

[CornCod]

All these nice folks talking about Mossad and the Mafia using .22 head shhot have to realize is that these organizations are using these .22's on unsuspecting people as assassination tools and not as a sefl-defense weapon.

  Unless you are Mr. Ultimate Commando who shoots 500 rounds a week and have been through Seal/Delta/SAS school, I think a head-shot strategy is a risky one. Center-of-Mass, even with a small caliber, is the better of the two options.

[Mikey]

CornCod - good points.  Thanks.  Mikey.

[Jack Ryan]

2 in the chest
2 in the head
2 in the neck
repeat as needed
reload as required.

If a 25 acp is all you got tie a string on it. It'll do a better job if you swing it than it will shooting it.

[narvous]

45 ACP. :biggun:

[HotGuns]

In a perfect world the headshots and the puny calibers would work, but we are not in a perfect world.

The chances of a "good guy" having to use a gun on someone that is impaired in some way is exellent.

Lets face it...it you have to shoot at someone that you dont know in self defense more than likley they are going to be drug impared,drunk,irate or they have no respect for life and they could really care less if you kill them or not. The "tweaking" methhead looking for his next fix might not even remember killing someone the night before.

The crackhead isnt going to feel much in the way of pain, nor is the drunk guy looking for some change for his next drink.

The only people that think theyll be able to hit a head when its moving are the ones that have never had to try it when someone is shooting at them.  Ive tried it during training sessions with Simunitions and trust me...its not as easy as you'd think.

Another thing is adrenaline flow. We've all heard stories of people that can do great deeds that are atributted to adrenaline. Get a good dose of scared or so mad that you cant see straight and you might not realize that youve been shot till you calm down. Add adrenaline and drugs in the same guy and it may take several magazines worth to put someone down.

Ive said it before and I'll say it again...and if these posts are any indication of the general mindset, most will pick up on it. Most people choose a gun for its ease of carry. Those guns that are easy to carry concealed  give up much when it comes to being effective in a shootout.

So ask yourself this...
do you carry yout gun because it is easy to carry with the intent of never shooting it...

or do you carry a proven  caliber  that you may have to defend yourself or your family with against a mad man... :eek: