What's 444 Good for?

[BattleRifleG3]

I have the materials together for a 444 Marlin rifle project, but everything I've suggested using it for has brought a negative response (ie grizzley bear).  So I'd like to know of all you 444 fans what you think a 444 Marlin is particularly good for, and what it's just acceptable for.

I was talking with a friend of mine today, a man with decades of hunting experience, and he said he's seen a black bear get right up after a hit by a 444 (or maybe he just heard about it, I dunno.)  He couldn't really tell me what it was good for.  Yet he owns two 444 Marlin leverguns.

So what would it actually be good for?  My project would feed from a box mag, so pointed bullets are ok, but the pressures can't be above factory spec.

[Redhawk1]

The 444 Marlin is good for deer, black bear, Caribou, Elk, Moose and I am sure a few Grizzlies have fallen to it. Not my first choice for Grizzlies though. The main problem is the bullet selection for the 444 Marlin. There are very few 44 cal bullets made for rifle speeds. Now you can use a lot of different cast bullets to get the job done. I ordered some 320 gr. Cast Performance bullets for my 444 Marlin. Hornady's 265 is also a good bullet. As far as a black bear getting back up after getting shot with the 444 Marlin, I am sure there are a lot of black bears that got back up even after a 375 H&H hit, if it was not good shot placement.  

[Mikey]

Battlerifle G3 - the 444, properly loaded, is good for anything on this continent and has taken the African big 5, so I would take what your buddy said with a large grain of salt.  

Regardless of the caliber, poor bullet placement is not offset by the size of the bore.  

I think the 444 is an awesome caliber.  I have handloaded bullets in the 300-330 grain range and am looking to load up some in the 350-400 grain range.  The 300s I had loaded up for a boar hunt rolled a 400 pounder right over with one shot right through the shoulders.  The 330s I used on a 800 lb cow Elk shot right through.

I am not a fan of intentionally going after large dangerous game that could easily make a meal out of me but if I encountered a large Brown or Grizzly Bear I would not feel undergunned with a 444 stuffed with those 330s.  

As I said, I think the 444 is good for anything on this continent, but that's just my opinion.  Mikey.

[Ramrod]

Poor bullet selection is always mentioned when discussing this round. Pistol bullets at rifle velocity are what most hunters are using. Don't forget, the average guy does not reload. Even then, many cannot be convinced that a non-expanding hard cast bullet is better on the big stuff. The big nasty critters are the main reason the 45-70 is still more popular, and why Marlin came out with the .450. Better bullet selection.

[Redhawk1]

Ramrod, the reason Marlin came out with the 450 was for those that don't reload and wanted a more powerful "factory" round than the 45-70 offered. The 45-70 and 450 use the same bullets. But back to the 444Marlin, it is a very good round and a lot of people have called it a long 44MAG, but it is better than most think.  

[BattleRifleG3]

One of my big questions was answered - That it would seem to be a good choice if hunting other animals in grizzley territory.  Not ideal for griz, but not a bad choice if caught off guard.

Here's the next issue with my project - It's semi-automatic and based on the AK action.  It's a drastic variation that due to many coincidences can effectively and safely be rebarreled to the 444 and hardly anything else (another option was 375 Win.)  So while there are plenty of animals out there who would happily become dinner at its hands, some spots have laws against semi autos and the ultra-reliable AK action (I wouldn't trust any other action to be as reliable, not even some bolt guns.)  For example, California and Canada are out.  And PA, gun friendly as it is, doesn't allow semi-autos for hunting.  So ruling out spots that prohibit the rifle, what hunting opportunities would there be?  I would note that this project rifle would probably be more accurate than I am, so that's probably not an issue with the rifle design.

[Questor]

That's a dang good question. I don't know either. In fact, I don't know what the 45-70 or 450 marlin are good for either.  If I want a rifle, I want rifle ballistics out to 300 yards.  If I want something for closer shooting I'll use a shotgun or a pistol.  The only thing I can figure is that they like lever actions and don't mind a gun that's made for close range shooting.

[Redhawk1]

That's a dang good question. I don't know either. In fact, I don't know what the 45-70 or 450 marlin are good for either.  If I want a rifle, I want rifle ballistics out to 300 yards.  If I want something for closer shooting I'll use a shotgun or a pistol.  The only thing I can figure is that they like lever actions and don't mind a gun that's made for close range shooting.

The 444 Marlin, 45-70 and the 450 all have there place and are very good rounds. Not everyone need to shoot to 300 yards with a rifle. 200 yards with any of the guns listed is very doable.  

[victorcharlie]

I've got to chime in on this one.......I have rifles from .17 cal up.........  I bought a .45/70 last year for a couple of different reasons.  First, of the many deer I've killed, 90 yards was the farthest, and I'd wager that most deer are killed at 60 yards or less.......Muzzleloaders account for a lot of game at that range as well, and have been killing game for a long time.  With the encroachment of the city into the country side, I wanted a rifle that under normal conditions wouldn't leave the county, but would drop like a rock after a few hundred yards.  Second, the big bores are useful on large game hitting hard like no small bore.  Third, I like the nostalga of hunting with a 120 or so year old cartridge.  The big bores are just plain fun to shoot, and the 45.70 has become one of my favorites.
 
As for the 444, I'd love to have one, as it's a fine short to medium range round that makes big holes...........and would be fine for anything in the lower 48 and would probably be fine for all but the largest bears up in the frozen north.........It would probably be fine for them as well with proper bullet placement.  Each unto his own, but don't knock it until you've tried it!

[Redhawk1]

Swage, If I did not reload I know where I would buy ammo from.  
http://www.grizzlycartridge.com/Detail.bok?no=38

[45LCshoooter]

At first I thought "semi-auto with a rimmed cartridge???", but then i realized that they make one that shoots a .410, and then i realized that you could use that very magazine, receiver and all. Not a bad idea. That would be worth developing on the novelty factor alone. Let us know how it goes.

[JPH45]

The 444 is a ballistic twin to the 405 Winchester, Our very own Teddy R. used that to kill more than a few lion in Africa. I think the bais favoring the 45-70 is just that, a bias that is not completely born out by reality. Strikes me that he 444 will stand up to anything you will stand up to with it.

[Ramrod]

JPH45, funny you should mention the similarities. Teddy R. did get a few lions, but from his writings, he used quite a bit of .405 ammo to do it. Stewart Edward White, an outdoor writer of the same period, took a .405 along to Africa. He writes about numerous failures to penetrate with the .405 on lion. He blamed Winchester's "POOR BULLETS". Seems the .444 and .405 Win. suffered from the same handicaps.

[Redhawk1]

I think the Hard cast bullets and the Barnes X are great in the 444 Marlin.

[Rustyinfla]

I think they must have made some pretty basic bullets in years past. If you read the writtings of Elmer Keith, he is down on a lot of rounds we consider standard today. Elmer wouldn't even consider a .30-06 good deer medicine, and never for an elk. I think that's the case for a lot of people nowdays. Heck, people around here consider the .243 the ultimate deer round.

          Rusty <><

[Ramrod]

White thought the .30-06 to be real lion medicine with 220 grain bullets. He got much better results with it than he did with the .405, so the big ammo makers must have been loading good bullets in some rounds. (Just like today.) :lol:

[BattleRifleG3]

At first I thought "semi-auto with a rimmed cartridge???", but then i realized that they make one that shoots a .410, and then i realized that you could use that very magazine, receiver and all.

Bingo!

[Wlscott]

I don't have any direct experience with the 444.  But, I do have direct experience with semi-auto rifles in dangerous situations.  

I'd like to refer back to your original post in the Bear Hunting forum.  In that post, one gentleman told you to

Get the military style "Black Rifles" out of your head and look at a serious high powered hunting rifle of the best quality you can afford

 My assumption is that most believe that this weapon system will fail you at the most inopportune time.  

I have to say, I have lots of experience carrying a black, semi-auto rifle while hunting "dangerous game".  True, the game I hunted didn't weight in at 1100 lbs, but it did have teeth of a sort.  If you know how to take care of an AR15/M16 you won't have a bit of trouble out of it.

I guess what I'm trying to say is......If the most powerful military in the world relies on this weapon to go bang every time you pull the trigger.....Why wouldn't you rely on it to protect you in grizzly country?  

The 458SOCOM will fling a 300 grain bullet at velocities as high as 2100 fps and a 500 grain bullet at around 1300 fps.  With the proper bullets, I see know reason why this wouldn't be as effective a griz round as anything else mentioned. With proper maintenance (Clean often, and use a dry graphite lube in the action in cold weather), your AR conversion will never fail you.

[300winman]

I don't know much about this company but Conley Precision Cartridge has several offerings in the 444 marlin. Noticed they have few offerings in 450 marlin too.

[BattleRifleG3]

Most folks who think a semi-auto unreliable for hunting have never fired thousands of rounds flawlessly through an AK.

I have nothing but respect for folks who accomplish similar reliability out of a bolt action and advocate it alone for use against grizzly bear.

The folks I can't understand are the ones who say semi-autos are unreliable and unsuitable, but then rule out many reliable ones due to snobbery.

Like if someone were to call a Saiga shotgun a piece of junk, choosing instead a Remington 1100, then saying that autos aren't reliable.

I happen to own both, one I have yet to fire, the other I've only fired single shot.  Autoloading reliability will be determined in time...

[1911crazy]

Most folks who think a semi-auto unreliable for hunting have never fired thousands of rounds flawlessly through an AK.

I have nothing but respect for folks who accomplish similar reliability out of a bolt action and advocate it alone for use against grizzly bear.

The folks I can't understand are the ones who say semi-autos are unreliable and unsuitable, but then rule out many reliable ones due to snobbery.

Like if someone were to call a Saiga shotgun a piece of junk, choosing instead a Remington 1100, then saying that autos aren't reliable.

I happen to own both, one I have yet to fire, the other I've only fired single shot.  Autoloading reliability will be determined in time...

Well my last two brand new remington 1100's jammed right out of the box and the second one jammed right in the store where i purchased it when we tried to just open the bolt.  So you can't blame american hunters who buy american made semi auto's  that aren't reliable, or dependable or have the AK47 quality of my 308win. Saiga.  I would put my life on the line with my Saiga anytime and anywhere the dam thing is that good.  
BTW;  My third remington 1100 that finally worked went right to the pawn shop when the dealer who sold me the first two would give me my money back because i didn't trust the gun enough to hunt birds with it.  I would hunt birds in bear country so i put in either "00" buck or slugs in the pipe first then a few rounds of bird shot next just in case they hear my bird shot and think its dinnertime. I would take the Saiga shotgun over the 1100 anyday too.

Now to the post I have a 444 marlin and don't under estimate the 240gr Remington 444 ammo.  I did a dumb thing once many years ago we were in the upper elevations in the mountians of Vermont and we made our own trail by following bear tracks and we needed to mark it where it came out.  So there was a fossilized maple tree that i decided to shoot at it and mark since there were no other hunters in the woods with us, we were the only fools in there I shot at the tree and marked it.  The 444 blew a slot about 3"+ deep horzontal like a milling machine cut it with a ball endmill perfectly taking out all the wood in its path.  I would trust the 444 marlin anytime for any north american game even Grizzly and Polar bears too.  Remember Elmer Keith killed everything in north america with a 357mag and 44 mag handgun so is the 444 marlin safe to use I think so.  I have made bear shots at about 25yds and less thats well within the 444's range.  I chose the 444 over the 45/70 because of the slower moving 405gr bullet over the quicker moving 240gr bullet.  I would still use either one while i like them both but i would like to see a longer barrel on the 450 guide gun too just as an option.                           BigBill

We would drive for miles into the national forest on a jeep trail and walk up another mile or so near the top of a mountain to hunt in prime bear country where no one goes only the crazy flatlanders would go up there.  You can just tell the chipmunks and the red squirrels never seen a human being too.  The look on their faces was what the hell is that when they would look at us.  I guess we were their TV and entertainment for that moment.  The last time i seen that old bear its tracks were about 14"(paws) and its droppings were almost 1/3+ a 5 gallon bucket closer to 1/2 high.  I'm hoping he has made a lot of babies thru the many years of him educating us. A 444 marlin bear for sure!!!!  This bear was so smart he would stay out of sight and tease us everytime we were up there and he became so bold he would follow us out of the woods in the daylite hooting at us all the time we walked.  He scared my older brother so bad in the dark at 5am while walking into our stands my brother didn't come bear hunting with us for a few years.  We deceided to leave that old smart bear alone and let him breed.  But the experiences we got from him in my first few trips to Vermont back in '73 hooked me on bear hunting to this day its so exceiting and awesome just to be so close to them.

[cam69conv]

Simple answer without all the rigamoror is ANYTHING YA WANNA SHOOT...I just took down a cape buffalo with mine at 211 yards for first shot...Passed almost all the way through and was in the offside skin on a lung shot...Followed up with 2 more right in the pumper (cuzz the guide told me too...dint need it as it was on the way down from the first shot). Anyone who tells you it wouldnt stand up well with a grizz hasnt hunted with it or are just pitiful shots. I was useing the Rem 240 grain sp's and they obviously did well. Dont listen to the simpletons that are telling you its not a good caliber. As an owner of one and having hunted every north american big game animal (cept moose,, havnt got to draw a dern tag fer one YET :x  ) and a few other big gamers from other continents, Im tellin ya its a fantastic caliber and you will be WELL armed against any critter that walks.

[Ramrod]

At 200 yards the 240 grain factory loaded .444 (from Remington) has a velocity of 1087 fps. and 1010 foot pounds of energy. Most hunters don't consider this to be nearly enough for Cape Buffalo.

[Redhawk1]

The 444 is a very good round in my opinion, but for Cape Buffalo, I would want something with a lot more punch. Nothing less than a 375 H&H.  

[1911crazy]

A 444 at 200yds?? Thats what my 338win.mag. is for the 444 marlin is a short range gun and I wouldn't go past 100yds if that because it does have its limits but within its limits it will drop any north american game for sure.                                                                 BigBill

[cam69conv]

untill 3 weeks ago against that cape I also thought it was a max 150 yard weapon...Was a clean and open shot perfect broadside and the guide didnt want to risk going on open ground any closer so he told me to take the shot...I was sceptical as well till I saw FIRST HAND the performance..Believe what ya'll want..I just know what I have seen for myself

[Redhawk1]

untill 3 weeks ago against that cape I also thought it was a max 150 yard weapon...Was a clean and open shot perfect broadside and the guide didnt want to risk going on open ground any closer so he told me to take the shot...I was sceptical as well till I saw FIRST HAND the performance..Believe what ya'll want..I just know what I have seen for myself

I don't doubt you, just personally I would not use a 444 on Cape buffalo.  

[cam69conv]

red,,,Imagine these two senarios....I fast moving fly hitting a leaf...then a slower moving flying beetle hitting same leaf...which do you think is gonna move that leaf more??? Sometimes speed isnt always the answer..Penetration was no problem either...like I said I recovered a VERY intact bullet in the OFFSIDE skin...Seems to me that people are missinformed about the penetration capabilities of the .444..Now granted I would have felt more comfy with my .300 win mag at the time but after I saw the performance I KNOW what it can do now. Ive never had to go more than 40 feet from a shot on a deer with it..Never more than 25 yards from shot on elk....Tells me that there is PLEANTY of stopping power from this bullet...I just cant figure out why people dont see it. I have shot every kind of factory ammo made for this weapon and she likes them all....The 240 rems just group a little better than the rest and I myself feel that PLACEMENT is the MOST importaint thing in hunting. I dont care if your shooting a popgun or a cannon...If ya dont hit it right it aint gonna die fast.

[Redhawk1]

cam69conv, on deer and Elk I don't have a problem with the 444 Marlin at all. It is the Cape buffalo that would concern me. I do understand about big and slow bullets. I love to use my 444 Marlin and my 45-70 especially on black bear. I use black powder cartridges in my Shiloh Sharps 45-70, you want to talk about slow, but I am using 500 gr. lead bullets.  :-D

I thought in Africa that the 375 H&H was the minimal cartridge for the Cape buffalo? I am just commenting on your 300 Win Mag comment.  

[cam69conv]

Ok I thin I have the pic thing figgered out...If the link doesnt work the pics are posted under this same id in www.hunt101.com im gonna try the links on here [/url][/img]  I hope this works