What's 444 Good for?

[Redhawk1]

cam69conv, is that a water buffalo? It does not look like a Cape buffalo. Also I did not think it snowed in Africa.

Can you give us some details on the hunt and where it was.  

[cam69conv]

hehe Hey red SHORE it snows in africa  Sorry I thought I gave those details. It was on a preserve hunt here in the states. In upper Pa and yes it was a water buff...In my stupidity I was thinking the water and the cape were the same thing. Granted not much difference but yes diff animal..Its a water buff...The preserve I was hunting on is 750+ half open and half wooded terrain. 750+ acres is about as fair chace as ya gonna get on a preserve type hunt. Was a difficult hunt ill say that. Damn near broke ma back on a fall. SAVED MA RIFLE THOUGH :-D  I need to get permission from the preserve owner before I advertise n such..Im sure he wont mind but I guess imma lil finiky thata way.

[Redhawk1]

cam69conv, if you can get that information and post it great, if not find out if you can e-mail me that information. I may be interested in getting a Water Buffalo.

Thanks

[handirifle]

Battlerifle

For example, California and Canada are out. And PA, gun friendly as it is, doesn't allow semi-autos for hunting

I have to question your statement here.  CA has NO restriction on hunting with a semi auto.  If you are refering to owning an AK type action, you are allowed to own one if you had it before the ban came to law, but you cannot buy or build an AK here now.

BUT, if you lived here and owned it before the ban, you are within ALL your legal rights to hunt with it.

Deer hunting in CA is legal with ANY centerfire cartridge from 22 cal and up.  There is never a mention of type of firearm it comes from.

Our laws are screwed up enough, please don't make them out to be worse than they are.

[BattleRifleG3]

Thanks for your clarification, though you did confirm that nothing I build on the AK action can enter CA.  My condolences on the loss of your freedom.  Here's to better legislators in the future!

[DanP]

er.. even as an outsider just listening in, I couldn't help but notice:
 
PA has laws against hunting with semi-autos -- though you can own them, and they're popular.
 
CA has laws against owning AK's.
 
Canada -- welll.....
 
Dan

[Ramrod]

What the .444 needs is 350 and 400 grain bullets like the .45-70, since almost everyone thinks it is suitable for the same size game. I think then they will find it comming up short. A .040 copper jacket, with a pure lead core would be nice, and a good old fashioned round-nose, to facilitate expansion. Probably not the best choice for a lever gun though.

[Mikey]

Ramrod - those already exist.  That is, Marshall Stanton of Beartooth Bullets already produces cast, gas-checked bullets in 350 and 400 grain weight.  I think what is missing however is a current version of the old 43 Mauser bullet, a 375-380 gn slug that should carry a nice metplat, rounded ogive and gas check.  Just my opinion.  Mikey.

[Redhawk1]

So let me get this right ?

You folk's don't want a jacketed bullet you would just as soon shoot Cast
bullet's with gas check's in your 444 Marlin's

Ok  :roll:

Before you look down on us, think about this. There is no really good jacketed bullets made for the 444 Marlin rifle velocity. Most all bullets made in 44 cal are pistol bullets. Cast is the way to go.

I would love to have some good choices of jacketed bullets for the 444 Marlin.  

[1911crazy]

First why would i want my 444 to have heavy bullets like the 45/70 and try to make it like the 45/70?  I think it performs very well like it is from 240JSP's up to the 265JSP's.  It makes me wonder how it would be if we went smaller to 185JSP's or 200JSP's  of course it would speed up and raise the performance of the 444 too.   I may try the 300grainers but thats were the cut off point is with the 444.  The 45/70 is like a truck with the 405 grainers and i would rather see a 45/90 or 45/120 ballastics to see how they perform with bigger bullets.  If were going to go for the gusto lets go with a bigger round and pump it up.  I think read that there was a 45/140 too?  That gets my vote!!!!  Lets go were no man has ever been in a longtime since the blackpowder buffalo hunters.  Lets make a whole new big caliber round with magnum performance too.  A semi auto with a long barrel that sure sounds like a barret don't it?  Were getting close to one now.  Just neck down the 50cal shell to shoot 44 caliber?  "no rim"  Cut back to 44cal with 500 grainers?  It just depends on how far it will shoot?                                                            BigBill

[Mikey]

Swage:  You got that right.  Redhawk1 is correct - there just aren't any jacketed bullets made for the velocities attainable in the 444.  And please let me tell you from personal experience how well hard cast gas checked heavy weight flatnose slugs work on large game.  Sorta like 'Wowsa'.  

I went with the Beartooth suggestions to firelap my bores and just won't bother with anything other than cast.  There is no reason for the expensive of jacketed when cast performs better and you can customize your loads to the animal if you wish.  In addition, jacketed bullets come in one of two diameters - .429 or .430.  If you happen to get an oversized bore you're stuck for accuracy.  With cast slugs you can shoot the proper bore diameter and maximize the accuracy of your rifle.  

YO BigBill - hay old buddy, you can have fun with lightweight jacketed slugs in the Triple 4 if you wanna hunt varmit at close range.  Or, if you slip one twixt the ribs of a whitetail you will be eating venison that night but there are some problems.  The velocities of the 444 and tain't conducive to the use of pistol bullets made for slower speeds - way too frangible and explosive.  Little or no penetration on bone with heavier animals.  Some may not even be accurate in your rifle.

The 444 really turns on (penetrates better) with heavy bullets, starting at about 300 grains.  The Hornaday 265 grain bullet was specifically made for the 444 and gave it a good edge over the Reminton 240s, but when it comes to penetration and bone bustin' capability you want to go up to 300, 330 or 350 grains.  I have some of Marshall Stanton's (Beartooth Bullets) 405 grain gas checked slugs I am going to try in 3 different Winchester Big Bore 444s.  I'm thinking they will be monsters from my 18" ported Timber Carbine (lol).  I wonder if I can find anyone to film some of those being touched off at night - now that would be a hoot.

One of the fellas, FAsmus, I think, cast out some 480s for his 444 black powder loads and shoot them at some really long distances, so the versatility is there in the 444.  It's a round you can have fun with.    

I feel the 444 is a 43 caliber cartridge that stands on its own merits.  I guess ya'll can tell I like the cartridge (lol).  Mikey.

[Redhawk1]

Mikey, there is just something about the triple4 that gets my attention.

[SAWgunner]

I have to agree with wlscott on this one.  I too trust my life and have proven that "black rifles" will be there when you need them, if you take care of them.  Now, G3, here is my problem with your equation.  I have quite a bit of experience with Kalishnikovs, and I think that you are heading in the wrong direction.   It's not that they can't handle the round, but by the time you mill the receiver/develop a magazines and mill the receiver and action, you could have bought a .50 Beowulf upper foar an M4 lower.  The .50 Beowulf is a great little round (I bought an upper, and I love it) and it has comparable ballistics to a 45/70 or .444 (around in that area) and they have ready to buy magazines and such.  I just thought I would let you know, because I too am chasing a dream of building my own guns.  Some of this stuff is cheap, but finding someone with the knowledge and tools (chamber reamers, button rifling, etc) is kinda high dollar.  

SAWgunner

[45LCshoooter]

Naw man, he's got that covered by using the bolt and mag from the .410 AK shotgun (maybe the whole receiver). Here's the thing. Shooting in a gas operated semi, jackets may be the only option. Anyone have experience shooting casts in an auto and not messing up the gas system?

[Redhawk1]

So let me get this right ?

You folk's don't want a jacketed bullet you would just as soon shoot Cast
bullet's with gas check's in your 444 Marlin's

Ok  :roll:

It may of come from the little rolleyes guy.

When you talk about making bullets, are you talking about jacketed or lead  ?  

[1911crazy]

When I did the wet sand test a few years ago I did the 30-06 and the 444 and both guns had the same results and i seen both bullets explode and seperated jackets from the lead too. I like the 444 round too but I would like to play with it more and maybe with cast bullets.  I was thinking of trying Bear Creek Supply 300gr moly coated cast bullets since i have had great results in my 44mag with them(no leading).  I guess that cast bullets won't explode the way jacketed bullets do??         BigBill

I have always used Speer 240gr JSP bullets in my 444 but lately i purchased the Mag Tech 240gr JSP because of the cheaper price.  Now i just noticed that Speer is making a better quality bullet called the Speer Gold Dot Bullets and they say they keep their uniform shape.  They are a "Flat Soft Point" over a JSP bullet and they come in 240gr and 270gr bullet weights too.  I just may try these Gold Dot bullets first.

[leverfan]

Now i just noticed that Speer is making a better quality bullet called the Speer Gold Dot Bullets and they say they keep their uniform shape.  They are a "Flat Soft Point" over a JSP bullet and they come in 240gr and 270gr bullet weights too.  I just may try these Gold Dot bullets first.

The Speer 300 grain Uni-Cor flat nosed soft point is an excellent all-around bullet for the 444 if the chance exists for game heavier than deer.  The Speer 300 grain bullets and Hornady 265 grain JSP are the only jacketed bullets I use for the 444.  I haven't tried Speer's 270, but it looks like a good choice, too.  Speer says it offers more expansion than the 300, because the 270 has lighter construction (and higher velocity to open it up faster).

In the 444, I don't care if it's jacketed or cast, as long as it performs the way I want it to.  The moderate velocity makes the 444 a good candidate for either type of bullet.

Most game animals are terrible at using scales and calipers, so few of them realize they've been shot with the lowly 444, instead of the legendary 45-70, or some other "better" round.  The right bullet in the right place just tends to work.

[Mikey]

Swage - to answer your question, and I apologize if I was a bit indirect previously, most 444 shooters who shot cast bullets use them because there are no suitable jacketed bullets available in the weight ranges some of us prefer.  

Many of us prefer the 300-330 hardcast bullets in the 444 for penetrability and bullet weight retention.  Some of the problems experienced with jacketed bullets in the 444 is tht the pistol bullets most often sold for this caliber tend to come apart when impacting on major bones structures in heavy game animals or larger predators.  

A jacketed bullet for the 444 has to have a proper ogive and nose design to both facilitate tube magazine/lever action feeding cycles and provide a flat enough metplat for large wound channels.  

If you were to begin offering jacketed bullets for the 444 I would like to see offerings in the 300, 325 and 350 gn weights, with large flat metplats that would expand but jackets that would hold together at velocites running from 1800 - 2300'/sec.  I would also think that the exposed nose would have to be of hard enough material not to deform badly on the heavier bone structures and give t&t penetration.  

HTH.  Mikey.

[Mikey]

45LCShooter - I would love to see the Kalashnikov action chambered in the 444 and the 410 platform would be the place to start but you would have to make some modifications to get it to work right.

The 410 shotgun shell starts at 2.5 inches - the 444 is 2.25 inches long.  With bullet, the 444 length far exceeds the magazine length capability.  The 410 operates at around 12-15K pressure - the 444 is 3 times that.  Maybe if an AK was chambered in one of the pistol rounds that uses the 44 mag case family as a base it would be a great woods gun, but they would have to match cartridge to action to get it to function right.  Just my thoughts.  Mikey.

[AntlersDS]

Does anyone have experience with Corbon ammunition for the .444.  I have been shooting a 280 gr Bonded Core Soft Nose and from what I gather has a velocity of 2344 fps and 2335 ft. lbs energy which is up there with the Marlin .450.  Sounds to me thare may not be a huge selection of good bullets for the .444, but they are out there.  I think Buffalo Bore has some pretty stout rounds available too.  Also, the Hornady 265 gr is a pretty good round too like some others have said.(If you don't handload)

[leverfan]

Ok .. never mind guy's i thought i would just try and help out some of the guys in need of Custom weighted bullet's ..


Thank's for the head's up on how to design a bullet Mikey.

You could have just read my post when i said!

( I have been making and selling bullet's since 1964 )


But hey what the heck this is just a forum ...

Well, you asked what 444 shooters wanted, and a prospective customer told you.  You may know all there is to know about bullet design, but your customer service skills may need some remedial attention.  With your "rolling eye" smilies, condescending attitude, and generally abrasive style of expression, I can't see customers lining up to do business with "PA Bullet's".  At least if they've read this thread, they'll move on.  You may very well have been cranking out projectiles of one sort or another since 1964, but you've convinced me to look elsewhere for bullets I buy.

This isn't meant as any sort of an attack, I'm just trying to encourage you to take a more moderate tone with prospective buyers.  It's your business, and your lost business, and like you said, "...what the heck this is just a forum..."

[Redhawk1]

Swage, I don't think anyone was coming down on you. Maybe we can start all over here and you can let us know exactly what you are after here.  I am always looking for a source for bullets, either for my handguns or rifles.  

Also I think Mikey was just giving you an idea of what he is looking for.

[BattleRifleG3]

The 410 shotgun shell starts at 2.5 inches - the 444 is 2.25 inches long.  With bullet, the 444 length far exceeds the magazine length capability.
The 410 operates at around 12-15K pressure - the 444 is 3 times that.

1.  The Saiga 410 takes 3" shells.
2.  The Saiga 410 is based on the Saiga X39 and its bolt and trunion are just as strong.  The X39 exerts the same rearward force of the bolt as the 444 Marlin.

[Mikey]

BattlerifleG3 - thanks.  I was sitting here looking at an empty 444 case and a 2.5" .410 shell, totally forgetting about the 3 incher sitting right next to it.  Oh Duh.................... Mikey.

Swage - I would still like to see 325 and 350 gn slugs as per your designs.  Following both accuracy and hunting success I think I would like to see one in 375 gn.  Mikey.

[BattleRifleG3]

Regarding lead bullets in a gas operated semi-auto, if any can take them an AK can.

[Buckeye]

I'm going to try 300gr. Hornaday XTP bullets in my 444M 94 BB ,I think they will perform well at 444 Vel.s at 100yd.s ,but any closer they make mince meat out of a Whitetail.
Has any of you guys tried this bullet in a 444 ?

[Mikey]

Buckeye - the 300 grain Hornaday XTP gives me great accuracy from each of my 3 Winchester BBs but it is really a pistol bullet.  At 100 yds the bullet may perform properly but closer up it may be somewhat explosive and very destructive.  I have found that each of my BBs gives me exceptional accuracy with properly sized hardcast, gas-checked bullets (from Beartooth) and also find them to be significantly less expensive than the jacketed commercial brands.

Don't get me wrong here - Hornaday makes excellent products and their 265 gn bullet was especially designed for the 444, but the 300 grainer is a pistol bullet (I think, I think, I think).  Mikey.

[BattleRifleG3]

Just read that there's a Hornady Light Magnum load for the 444 Marlin, with a 265gr bullet.  Anyone know if this would make the difference in its usefulness for dangerous game?  And more importantly, does it keep within SAAMI pressure specs for those rifles short of the heavy duty Marlins?

[Ramrod]

I don't believe giving more velocity to a light for bore size bullet makes it better for really large game. In fact, penetration will usually be less with an expanding bullet at higher velocity. What is needed are heavier slugs, velocity be damned. With really big critters, bullet momentum is much more important than kinetic energy, which is really nothing more than a useless "cocktail party conversation" number.

[DanP]

With really big critters, bullet momentum is much more important than kinetic energy, which is really nothing more than a useless "cocktail party conversation" number.

Actually, the energy transferred per unit momentum transferred is proportional to the velocity.  This translates to tissue damage -- which doesn't count for much without penetration (you have to destroy tissue in critical places).  The amount of energy required to break up elephant skull with its honeycomb-like structure is significant, but you still don't want to see very much energy transfer to the skull with nothing left to make it to the brain.  That means that the core of the discussion has more to do with bullet construction, its relationship to energy dissipation (does higher velocities promote more mushrooming and less penetration? you bet!) and penetration.

There's a really neat article about penetration: elephant sandwiches .

This contains a particularly interesting quote:

You may well be wondering what became of the control test, the old solid at 1950 fps. Well, this was even more interesting, and I reckon went a considerable way towards validating the relevance of the “elephant sandwich” test medium. At a genuine chronographed 1950 fps, this bullet gave absolutely typical performance of the sort that was commented upon at length by National Parks and Tsetse control officers of years ago. The bullet penetrated the bone, but then blew to bits for a total penetration of precisely half that of the others - 41 cm in all. True “sick leave” material. This bullet would penetrate the leg bone, but wouldn’t have a snowball’s chance in hell of finding its way into the vital organs thereafter. If the animal in question wasn’t irate before, it will certainly be seeking you out for a VERY meaningful round of discussions after being swatted with such a dud. This, I might add, is not a condemnation of old Winchester ammo alone - ALL were noted for such overly emotional reaction to striking something solid.

The bullets they are talking about are the old Winchester and Remington FMJ 500 grain .458 win loads.   They had been planned to be hotter, but were cooled off due to powder packing/caking in the heat.  At the reduced 1950 ft/sec velocities, these bullets would go through the bone, but then fail when entering softer muscle after leaving the bone.  Recently, this class of load has been dropped by Winchester and Remington in favor of premiums (much more $'s), primarily loaded by other companies such as Hornady and Federal, though Winchester has kept its 510 gr softpoint.

Dan