More on the Border War...

[fe352v8]

All of us who own firearms, be it for recreation and / or self-defense, will be judge by the actions of these individuals.  Personally I do not find this a comfort.

While the militia is authorized in section 8, clause 12, of the constitution and under title 10, section 311 of US code, mobilization, independent of lawful authority is not.  It is my fear that regardless of how “well intentioned” these individuals are, it will only add fodder to those seeking to further curtail firearms ownership in this country.

The danger in deployment of the “un-organized militia”, aside from that implied by the term is a lack of accountability.  Their actions are very close to vigilantism.  If they should act outside the direction of the “lawful constituted authority”, their lawful legitimacy becomes questionable.  The membership of some “militias” formed in the 80s and 90s had a large number of “wannabes”, whose interpretation of the constitution, was sometime at odds with the rest of society, verging on cult like.

Many will make much of the role played by the militia in the history of this country, citing the Declaration of Independence, as authority for the action of citizens against their government.  We should note however, that after the constitution was ratified and adopted, thus creating the country, the Declaration of Independence was not adopted by the newly formed country, thus while it is part of our heritage, it is not the law, of our country.

Without question many entering these country do so with malevolent intentions, and those closest to these points of entry bear the brunt of this.  However one must recognize the role that our national policies have played in this.  With the Monroe doctrine, asserting our dominion in this hemisphere, as opposed to European influence, came a responsibility to the inhabitants of this hemisphere.  We have often failed to live up to this responsibility.  In the 19th and early 20th century we exploited Latin America, to our benefit, after the Second World War, and our emergence as a true world power, we ignored it.   Until we realize, that helping the people of Latin America find the quality of life and prosperity they seek, within their own countries, or at least the possibility of attaining, them in their own country, they will come, just as you would.  There are millions living in abject poverty and without hope that are only separated from us by a line on a map or a poor excuse for a river.  Is it truly wiser to use our resources in, Asia, Africa, the Middle East, and Europe?

Life is no joke but funny things happen

jon

[Robert]

God Bless you Jon.  You are certainly more eloquent than I am, and really did a good job with that one.  I am going to have to read your post a few more times just to let it sink in a little more.  I agree with the feeling of most of these guys...but there has GOT TO BE a better approach to this problem.  We are not talking about problems with Cattle....these are also human beings.  Yes some of them have criminal intent, I am sure....probably very close to the percentage of criminal intent that is common with all of our neighbors at home.  I think the border should be managed better, Yes, but not by untrained civilians.  If they want to volunteer for training, I am sure they can be accomodated.  But as it is...we only have Mexican idiots vs American idiots.  If somebody dosen't straighten this situation out real soon we will surely see an ugly bloodbath.

All of us who own firearms, be it for recreation and / or self-defense, will be judge by the actions of these individuals.  Personally I do not find this a comfort.

While the militia is authorized in section 8, clause 12, of the constitution and under title 10, section 311 of US code, mobilization, independent of lawful authority is not.  It is my fear that regardless of how “well intentioned” these individuals are, it will only add fodder to those seeking to further curtail firearms ownership in this country.

The danger in deployment of the “un-organized militia”, aside from that implied by the term is a lack of accountability.  Their actions are very close to vigilantism.  If they should act outside the direction of the “lawful constituted authority”, their lawful legitimacy becomes questionable.  The membership of some “militias” formed in the 80s and 90s had a large number of “wannabes”, whose interpretation of the constitution, was sometime at odds with the rest of society, verging on cult like.

Many will make much of the role played by the militia in the history of this country, citing the Declaration of Independence, as authority for the action of citizens against their government.  We should note however, that after the constitution was ratified and adopted, thus creating the country, the Declaration of Independence was not adopted by the newly formed country, thus while it is part of our heritage, it is not the law, of our country.

Without question many entering these country do so with malevolent intentions, and those closest to these points of entry bear the brunt of this.  However one must recognize the role that our national policies have played in this.  With the Monroe doctrine, asserting our dominion in this hemisphere, as opposed to European influence, came a responsibility to the inhabitants of this hemisphere.  We have often failed to live up to this responsibility.  In the 19th and early 20th century we exploited Latin America, to our benefit, after the Second World War, and our emergence as a true world power, we ignored it.   Until we realize, that helping the people of Latin America find the quality of life and prosperity they seek, within their own countries, or at least the possibility of attaining, them in their own country, they will come, just as you would.  There are millions living in abject poverty and without hope that are only separated from us by a line on a map or a poor excuse for a river.  Is it truly wiser to use our resources, Asia, Africa, the Middle East, and Europe?

Life is no joke but funny things happen

jon

[FWiedner]

A link to this same article is posted in a different thread opened by lgm270, but I added it here as well for continuity.

Mexican Military on Standby in Response to Minutemen

Mexico's President Vicente Fox is preparing to respond militarily to a group of U.S volunteers who plan to patrol the U.S.-Mexican border starting tomorrow, positioning more than a thousand troops nearby, according to an Arizona TV station.

"The Mexican military is on standby," reports NBC's Tucson affiliate KVOA. "One unit has about a thousand soldiers. They're located just across the border."

Over the last week spokesmen for the border patrol volunteers, who dub themselves Minutemen, have said they will not attempt to detain Mexican illegals, but rather report them to the Border Patrol and track them till they're apprehended.

Despite the assurances, Mexican officials met with the mayor of Douglas, Ariz., on Tuesday to discuss how they will handle potential violence, KVOA said.

Last week President Fox warned at a Mexico City press conference:

"We totally reject the idea of these migrant-hunting groups. We will use the law, international law and even U.S. law to make sure these types of groups, which are a minority, will not have any opportunity to progress."

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/3/31/134212.shtml


*FW Note:Earlier this century our government dispatched the U.S. Army to chase a bandit hoard back into Mexico.  Now another bandit hoard is reformed and once again plundering the property and taking the lives of American citizens in our own country.

Does Vicente Fox determine U.S. immigration policy or does U.S. federal law?

A foreign head of state is threatening American citizens for defending America, saying that he will do whatever is necessary to ensure a succcessful invasion of our country by his "army"

In President Bush's view, members of the Minuteman Project are vigilantes, while those who cross the border in violation of U.S. laws, are “heroes.”

 :evil:

[lostone1413]

They our doing what our goverment won't do. I can't see how anyone could favor open borders. Everyone against the minutemen that is what they favor. What the minutemen are doing is one of the reasons the founding fathers put in the 2nd amendment. I can tell you the only ones in Arizona that i've seen against the minutemen are the mexicans for the most part and the illegals.

[Leverdude]

I wonder what the Mex army would do if thousands of impoverished Americans started streaming across their border?
Roberts kinda right in that civilians shouldnt be the ones patroling the border but if the Government wont do it who will?
If our President is the man I thought he was when I voted for him, twice, he's not going to let the Mexicans actions go unanswered.
I sadly admit tho that he's likely not concerened as its only Americans in danger, not Iraqis or Isralies or Palistinians or what have you & who cares about Americans or America anymore?

[fe352v8]

Judging by some of the posts, it would seem that some of those motivated enough to actually go and “guard the border”, will inevitable do something some will view as patriotic, but none the less stupid and criminal.  So to those that think the Minutemen’s “defense” of the border is a good thing, thanks for giving the anti-gun lobby another example of why we should no longer have private ownership of firearms.

Between the Border States of, Arizona, California, New Mexico, and Texas, there are 96 members of congress or 22%, and 8 members of the senate or 8%.  This means these 4 states account for 104 Electoral College votes or almost 24%.  With this much political clout if the situation is not being handled to your satisfaction, and you support democracy, your only recourse is to use the political and judicial process to change policy.  If that option is not acceptable, for whatever reason, you could secede, which experience shows does not work well, or start a revolution and over throw the current government, the likelihood of success being minimal at best, or immigrate, but where ever you go it will be worse than here.

The Minutemen, do conjure up romantic visions of Americans defending America, but they are an ill conceived, pitifully useless, irrational and reactionary response to a serious issue.

Life is no joke (the Minutemen are) but funny things happen

jon

[fe352v8]

Yes, our border control policy is a joke.

The way to change it is the process we have used for over 200 years, the ballot box and the courts.

If one is no longer inclined to believe in the constitutional, democratic republic, that is and has been our system of government for over two hundred years, the only logical thing to do is leave.  

If one chooses not to leave, and it is their position that the government has become so corrupted that only its’ disestablishment can solve the problem, then they need to take a deep breath and return to reality.

These folks seem a little old for playing army

Life is no joke but funny things happen

jon

[Don Fischer]

Judging by some of the posts, it would seem that some of those motivated enough to actually go and “guard the border”, will inevitable do something some will view as patriotic, but none the less stupid and criminal.

What the founding father's did was stupid and criminal, don't believe it? Ask the King, this was an English Colony. Our history is riddled with the names of radical's; George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, John Adams,ect,ect,ect. Which one's are you calling criminal?

The way to change it is the process we have used for over 200 years, the ballot box and the courts.

Seem's you may be mistaken. I don't believe we voted the King out of office and he said "aw shucks" and quitely went away.

[FWiedner]

fe352v8 - you seem to be operating under several misconceptions.

The Minuteman Project became a necessity after the president’s refusal to authorize more than 250 additional border patrol agents at the US-Mexico border last month after Congress had recommended 10 times that number. Many residents of the Southwest thought that more than any other action, this demonstrated Bush’s attitude toward the growing problem in that region: Ignore it long enough and it will go away.

Spokesmen for the Minutemen have said they will not attempt to detain Mexican illegals, but rather report them to the Border Patrol and track them till they're apprehended.

Many of the Minuteman volunteers are expected to be armed, although organizers of the border vigil have prohibited them from carrying rifles. Only those people with a license to carry a handgun will be allowed to do so.  They have not threatened any person with violence and it is not part of thier mandate to even apprehend anyone.

But California and Texas leaders of Mara Salvatrucha, or MS-13, have issued orders to teach "a lesson" to the Minuteman volunteers.

Mexico's President Vicente Fox is preparing to respond militarily and has said "We totally reject the idea of these migrant-hunting groups. We will make sure these types of groups will not have any opportunity to progress."

NBC Tuscon reports that the Mexican military is on standby, with several units, one of which hase has about a thousand soldiers just across the border.

President Bush called the volunteers who have joined the effort "vigilantes."

These "Minutemen" haven't threatened any violence.  The truth is that they are not even permitted to be armed unless thay already have a carry permit.  The only thing that they have threatened to do is to report border violations by illegals to the Border Patrol.

How is it that citizens performing entirely legal activities give "the anti-gun lobby another example of why we should no longer have private ownership of firearms"?  What "example" is it that you speak of?  Who has been threatened with a firearm by these "Minutemen"?  On what occassion has a firearm been brandished or used to create or set the tone for this "example"?

Don't citizens report suspected crimes in YOUR neighborhood?  Do your neighbors consider those people who report such events to be "an ill conceived, pitifully useless, irrational and reactionary response to a serious issue"?

Do your neighbors who lock the doors to their house, buy dogs, and keep a firearm loaded to defend their home, "seem a little old for playing army"?

Americans have a Right to Keep and Bear Arms whether Mexicans like it or not.  Further, Arizona is an open carry state.  I think that it's far more likely that there's just some Freudian "bleed through" of your personal feelings that Americans whom you disagree with should be disarmed, regardless of the circumstance.

American citizens living on the border are in danger.  They have been publically threatened by criminal gangs, threatened by the Mexican head-of-state, and then disparaged and disregarded by the President of the United States, who has made it plain that he considers ANY action on thier part to classify them as "vigilantes".

If you think that this is a game, you are sadly mistaken.  In the absence of tangible or identifiable action by the U.S. government, these people have been forced to act in their own defense.

THAT is reality.

[lostone1413]

FWiedner I'm one of many in Arizona that agree with you a 100%! We have a goverment that is run by nothing but traitors anymore. Anyone who believes the minutemen our wrong does not believe in our Constitution or the sovereignty of our nation. The Founding Fathers gave us the right to fourm a Militia to protect ourself when the goverment couldn't or wouldn't. Our country is filled with times the citizens took up arms to protect theirself and their property. The only ones in AZ that are against the minutemen are the illegals and about 60% of the legal mexicans in this country plus the ones getting rich by using the cheap labor. To me a person doesn't believe in the Constitution or the Sovereignty of this nation is a traitor. GWB has shown beyond a doubt what side of the fight he is on

[lostone1413]

The best way to put what is going on!



Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.
— John F. Kennedy

Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor, and the contrary opinion is wishful thinking at its worst. Nations and peoples who forget this basic truth have always paid for it with their lives and freedoms.
— Robert Heinlein

[fe352v8]

If it ones position that if US government action, is deficient or unwilling to provide for what one views as the governments obligation, then one who acts in the government’s stead or contrary to the government is, a “truer American” and justified in their actions, as they would be acting in the traditions of revolutionary war minutemen?

If that is ones position, there is a serious flaw in the logic.  At the time of the revolution the colonist, even though they were English citizens had no representation in parliament, and thus no political recourse, under English law.  

Unless something has changed, the people of Arizona, California, New Mexico, and Texas have not been disenfranchised and still have political representation in the house and senate.  If memory serves correct the Speaker of the House is from Texas, as is the President.  Clearly the interest of Border State citizenry is not only represented, but they have influence disproportional to other regions of the country.

The fact that one is threatened, with the possibility of becoming an ethnic minority, where once they had been the majority, does not make the ethnic group, that may becomes the majority, less American.   Ethnicity, while certainly apart of our immigration policy, has, at least under US law, has not been a determinate of citizenship since 1924, when Native Americans were granted voting rights.

The positions of some, as expressed, would seem to indicate less of a concern for national security, then with the individual’s cultural and ethnic prejudices.

Life is no joke but funny things happen

jon

[FWiedner]

I'm not sure what the speech on revolutionary Americans was about, but OK. Whatever.

In my eyes there's no benefit there is to disparaging someone's honorable motive because they feel their heritage dictates that they act when the government will not.

I believe that there are more than a few people from Arizona, California, New Mexico, and Texas who would loudly disagree with your assessment of both the level and the quality of their "representation" in Washington.

If those few officials see these several issues any differently than the citizens actually suffering from the result of the government's failure to perform their Constitutional duties, they DO NOT represent those people, and the issue is very much like that of the Minutemen of days gone by.

Color it any way you like, but taking action to protect life, property, and homeland from criminals (even government approved criminals) does not make a person a "vigilante", a xenophobe, or a racist (...which is what you intended to suggest, is it not?).

.

[Robert]

Ok...I have fought this, I have argued against this confrontation.  But it DOES NOT look like there is any turning back.  Rather than be AGAINST other Americans...I will be FOR.  I am IN.  Stop the Bush Bashing though, and stop calling people that are looking for peaceful solutions 'traitors'..or you will surely turn me away.  Deal?

[FWiedner]

Ok...I have fought this, I have argued against this confrontation.  But it DOES NOT look like there is any turning back.  Rather than be AGAINST other Americans...I will be FOR.  I am IN.  Stop the Bush Bashing though, and stop calling people that are looking for peaceful solutions 'traitors'..or you will surely turn me away.  Deal?

Ya know Robert, maybe I'm only speaking for myself, but I don't think that there's any argument demanding a confrontation.

I think that it is more an argument in support of regular people doing something even though the odds are against them.  These people want to stand up and fill the gap where an uncooperative and non-representative government refuses to act.

These people, by all appearances, want to engage in a peaceful and lawful activity, but foreign criminals, foreign governments, and even their own government is railing against them.

In my opinion, These "Minutemen" present a spirit of freedom and independence that all Americans used to idolize and consider as an inalienable component of our nation's heritage.  There was a time when Americans didn't depend on the government to do the dirty work.  There was a time when Americans didn't mind standing up to the resistance of having the wind in their face.

These people decided not to be lazy.  They decided to get off their butts and do something and it pisses people off.  It scares people.  People don't like to see evidence of self-reliance.  They think people who say "I'll do it myself" are just a little strange.  I mean, for G_d's sake, if the government doesn't do it, it must not be worth doing. Right?

Good or bad, we need more grass-roots action like this to force the government to release it's stranglehold on our liberties.

 :?

[Leverdude]

I'll never understand why a peacfull solution always means America must relent. The Mexicans have armed forces on the border not the US, The Mexican people are invading the US not the other way around.
Sound peacful?
Sure does as long as we allow ourselves to be treated like insignifigant children.

You guys that think this isn't a threat to our country might do well to look at history a bit. If we are going to keep what we have we better wake up & smell the coffee.
Leave your borders insecure & treat invasions as a non threat & pretty soon you dont have a country anymore. Ask the Romans.

Fe, the reason this might make gun owners look bad is because Americans have become a bunch of sniveling wimps for the most part who would sell their own mothers out if the Gov't told them it would make them safer.  
God forbid someone act on their own in the countrys best interest or their own best interest even.
Probly the liberals think we should go to the UN to seek sanctions against Mexico.

I think the President oughtta put a large military presence on our side of the border & tell Mr Mexico that if 1 American is killed or injured north of the border he faces the same "Shock & awe" we so freely utilize in the name of freedom for forien lands & furthermore Mr Mexico better do what ever he needs to keep HIS people in HIS country.

[lgm270]

leverdude:  Right ON!

[fe352v8]

Fwiedner, and Others

SORRY, SORRY, SORRY, SORRY, SORRY, SORRY, SORRY, SORRY, SORRY

Your defense of the Minuteman deployment, forced me to look beyond the rhetoric.  I still believe that the probability, for a rather ugly situation, is high, and that some participants and supporters are motivated by prejudice.  Be that as it may, it dawned upon me, that when the government fails to enforce the laws that it is charge to enforce, others have resorted to demonstrations to call attention to the situation.  Many of these demonstrations, in fact most of them, also carried a high probability of violence.  While not parallel to the demonstrations of the 60s, it serves the same purpose, to draw attention to the government’s failure to meet its’ responsibility.  I believe, many like myself, lose sight of the actual issues involved, when we hear things like, “militia doing what the government won’t, defending America from the Mexican invasion”, to me this conjure images of “rightist, whacko, neo-Nazi, white supremacist.  I am sure that some participants and supporters fit this image but any protest, has a small, but vocal, fringe element that detract from the intent, and thus cast dispersions on all.

Part of a governments contract with its’ people is that it will enforce those laws enacted at the behest of the people through their elected representatives.  Taken at face value, this deployment, is a reminder to our governments of its’ obligations to its citizenry.  Hopefully, those that haven chosen to be armed will be aware of the responsibility they have assumed.  The acts of a single individual participant may become the basis of judgment for all participants.  So I wish you success and hope it remains a peaceful protest.

Thank you again for making me think.  Even liberals can learn, or at least remember lessons from the past, but don’t tell Teddy, he won’t invite to the cape again.  On second thought who cares, now he always makes somebody be the designated drive, what goods the beach without beer.

Life is no joke but funny things happen

jon

[992]

So I guess that everyone who is not Native American [indian], is a terrorist or alien?
I
 America; Love it ,  or leave !!!!!


S F

[FWiedner]

Minuteman Volunteers March in Protest

DOUGLAS, Ariz. -- Volunteers for an effort to patrol the Mexican border for illegal immigrants and smugglers marched in southern Arizona on Saturday to draw attention to what they say is the government's failure to control illegal immigration.

About 150 people, including volunteers for the Minuteman Project and their supporters, chanted "Hey, hey, ho, ho, illegal aliens got to go" and sang "God Bless America" as they filed past the Border Patrol station in this community. Some of the group had attended a similar rally earlier in the day in nearby Naco.

"I just feel like the president and the Congress have let us down on national security since 9-11," said Tim Donnelly of Twin Peaks, Calif., who will join other volunteers when they begin patrolling the border Monday. "We have open borders, and the director of the FBI has said al-Qaida wants to sneak in."

Jim Gilchrist, a retired accountant from California who organized the project, said the people at the protest represented only a portion of 450 participants on hand for the patrols. He said many were conducting reconnaissance Saturday.

(AP) Protesters including Steve Cavodnyik, left, of Tucson, Ariz., rally outside of Schiefelin Hall in... Full Image There was no way to verify the count independently Saturday. Human rights activists and some authorities have questioned whether the patrols will draw the hundreds that organizers expect.

The idea, according to organizers of the Minuteman Project, is for volunteers to fan out across 23 miles of the San Pedro Valley to watch the border and report any illegal activity to federal agents, an exercise some law enforcement officials fear could lead to vigilante violence.

The Arizona-Mexico border is considered the most vulnerable stretch of the 2,000-mile southern border. Of the 1.1 million illegal immigrants caught by the Border Patrol last year, 51 percent crossed into the country at the Arizona border.

Many of the Minuteman volunteers were recruited over the Internet and some plan to be armed.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/4/3/93949.shtml

.

[FWiedner]

Minuteman project snagging 1st illegals

Private citizens patrolling border area spot aliens even before official start

Just before its official commencement, the Minuteman Project has helped U.S. officials capture at least 18 suspected illegal aliens.

When federal agents arrived at the scene, they took into custody 18 migrants, Border Patrol spokesman Andy Adame told the Associated Press.

Read the rest of the story at:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43622

.

[williamlayton]

All this huffing and puffing is making me thirsty and your talk is endangering my supply of drinking Tequila. :grin:
We should (defend is such a harsh and, in this case misused, word) regulate our borders better. Read this as a call for enough border security to adequately enforce the laws we have in place AND redefine those laws to better serve our needs and desires. OK!
Now who is to define our redefining and needs. I could say I like the way it is, but each state must accept its own prorata share of illegals or legals. Or, we could make a deal with Fox and Mexico would have need for Americans to begin to populate Mexico, buy land, vote in the U.S., and abide by U.S. law, start American business', Mexico would have need to pay Minimum wages based on U.S. currency exchange and rates, Americans would be allowed to vote in Mexican elections.
Yea- I like that part, U.S. citizens can vote in Mexican elections.
I have had too much coffee, think I will back off for now---IGNORE THIS POST IF YOU ARE LOOKING FOR ANY THOUGHT THAT IS REASONABLY GOOD-I did this strictly out of frustration and need for humor relief.
Blessings

[FWiedner]

Border Patrol Complains About Volunteers

TOMBSTONE, Ariz. -- Volunteers who have converged on the Mexican border to watch for illegal immigrants are disrupting U.S. Border Patrol operations by unwittingly tripping sensors that alert agents to possible intruders, an agency spokesman complained Monday.

Read the article at:

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/4/4/165826.shtml

and another at:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/04/05/border.volunteers.ap/index.html

*FW Note:  Agents of law enforcement have now "complained" about the activities of the Minutemen.  This gives the Bush administration a legal footing to take action against them.  It didn't take long to discover just exactly whom the Border Patrol is down there to "help", did it?

 :?

[Don Fischer]

Would such an individual State have a chance against impending federal incrementalism?

I should have put your whole thing in there. Sound's like you just described Mexico!!!!!!!!!!!

[FWiedner]

Migrants keep eyes on Minutemen

The group, about 50 strong, begins monthlong 'patrols' during weekend with SUVs, binoculars and an official denouncement from Border Patrol.

CLAUDINE LoMONACO
 

AGUA PRIETA, Son. - Elena Torres doesn't know who the Minutemen are, but she watched them as she crouched on the desert floor Saturday night.
She's a 41-year old mother of three who has crossed the desert six times in the past decade to get to a job cleaning houses in a wealthy suburb of Cleveland. She waited all night for word from her pollero, or guide, to get up and run across the border.

Meanwhile, less than a half a mile from where she hid, around 50 of the "Minutemen," volunteers with a civilian border patrol, planted flags in the ground from their home states - California, New York, Texas - and kicked off the first patrols of their monthlong effort to seal a corner of the Arizona border.

All weekend the Minutemen, many of whom are retired servicemen, slathered on sunscreen, stood on top of SUVs and peered through binoculars on the lookout for people just like Torres.

Mostly, they saw Mexican police watching for drug smugglers, ranch hands cleaning up plastic bottles and bags, and the bright orange trucks of Grupo Beta, a migrant aid group run by the Mexican government, kicking up dust and looking for migrants.

Grupo Beta found Torres huddled with 10 others yesterday morning, persuaded them to turn back and took them to Grupo Beta headquarters for some hot soup.

Most of the time, Grupo Beta focuses on helping migrants in distress. By the time migrants get to the U.S. border here, about 15 miles east of Douglas, they've walked three to four miles and can already be in danger of dehydration, hypothermia or overheating.

With the Minuteman Project in full swing, Grupo Beta is doing all it can to dissuade migrants from trying to cross at all.

"We don't know the intentions of these Minutemen," said Bertha de la Rosa, the local Grupo Beta coordinator. "But we know they are armed. And our job is to protect migrants."

Volunteers with the project insist they have no intention of harming migrants, but simply plan on reporting them to Border Patrol. Their larger goal is to send a message and get President Bush and Congress to seal the border and stop the flow of illegal immigrants.

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"I don't think Americans are truly aware of the problem," said 46-year-old John Lehmann, a Minuteman and corrections officer from Fleischmanns, N.Y.

"I mean, all you have to do is see this fence," he said, and points to a thin strip of barbed wire, all that separates Mexico, and potential terrorists, he adds, from the United States.

The Border Patrol has officially denounced the project, and says it merely complicates regular operations and endangers agents, migrants and volunteers.

But there appears to be at least some support from agents on the ground.

As Lehmann peers through his binoculars, a Border Patrol agent in a vehicle slows down.

"God bless you, man!" the agent shouts out at Lehmann, and gives him a thumbs-up.

The Minuteman Project eventually plans to patrol five areas along 40 miles of the border in Cochise County, organizers say. But for now, it is focusing on this three-mile strip of land that is a popular crossing point for migrants like Torres.

Torres sits on the front porch of Grupo Beta headquarters and brushes off the desert dust that coats her hair, dark jacket, and even eyelashes. She said she has decided to return to Mexico City. But only for a while.

"In a month I'll try again," she said, taking a sip of soup, "when it's not so hard. Really, what other choice do I have?"

http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/index.php?page=local&story_id=040405a3_minutemen

*FW Note:  Looks like the Border Patrol rank and file may be grateful for the help.  Is the problem with the fatbutts in Washington?  That would be a big surprise.  Meanwhile, the illegals just wait until someone's not looking...

[FWiedner]

Minutemen catch 141 illegals so far

New Mexico official hopes to expand citizen volunteer project to 2nd state

In its second day of operations, the civilian volunteer Minuteman Project claimed to have aided the Border Patrol in the apprehension of 141 illegal aliens along the Arizona border and deterred many more from attempting to cross from Mexico.

Read the atricle at:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43664

.

[lostone1413]

They are doing a great job!! Some of the last great American Patroits!! See a big difference in the way the Minutemen believe in our Constitution and how the TRAITORS we have in Washington believe in it!!!!!

[FWiedner]

Ignoring Illegal Immigration: The New American Way

Lynn Woolley

Humberto Garcia sat in our radio studio, passionately telling a story he had already told to Fox News Channel's Bill O'Reilly and CNN's Lou Dobbs – and yet Mr. Garcia is still waiting for justice to be done. You see, Mr. Garcia's 18-year-old daughter, Jenny, was brutally raped and murdered by a man who should not have been in the United States. That he was is a major failure of our system and an indictment of our elected officials.

The murder took place on January 26, 2004, at Mr. Garcia's home in northwest Austin, Texas. Her younger sisters came home from school and found Jenny naked, hands tied behind her back, a piece of cloth in her mouth and muzzled with duct tape. A butcher knife was still embedded in her chest.

Read the rest of the article at:

http://newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/4/6/124147.shtml

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[FWiedner]

Border Militia Divides Arizona Residents
 
By Tim Gaynor

BISBEE, Arizona (Reuters) - A right-wing militia patrolling the Mexican border to catch illegal immigrants is pitting some residents in favor of old-style frontier justice against critics who say the militiamen are the real threat.

Between 300 and 400 "Minuteman" project volunteers, some of them armed, have come to Arizona to stake out a 23-mile section of the border throughout April.

They say it is a peaceful political protest, although some are armed with pistols, and a number of local residents have joined the patrols or turned out to support them.

Others, however, have held protests and watch with suspicion the volunteers' arrival in camper vans and four-wheel drive vehicles, some decked out with gun racks.

In the old copper mining town of Bisbee, which reinvented itself as a refuge for writers and painters after the mine closed in the 1970s, many eye the vigilantes with suspicion.

"I had a Salvadoran work for me for six months, and it's not uncommon for people here to drive a migrant north in their car rather than hand them over to the U.S. Border Patrol," said cafe owner Charles Lewis.

Lewis and some other residents in this town in the Mule Mountains just north of the border say they fear the Minuteman volunteers much more than the migrants who trek across ranches and public land on the way north.

"I'd rather take my chances with the Mexicans than one of these U.S. military type idiots taking part in the patrols," local truck driver John Porter told Reuters, as he took the sun on a sidewalk table outside the Daily Diner.

"Migrants pay their taxes and I don't have a problem with them," he added.

GUNSLINGERS BACK IN TOWN

However, a few miles up the road in Tombstone, where the Minutemen volunteers come to register for the patrols at a local newspaper, gunslingers have been a part of tradition since Wyatt Earp and Doc Holliday gunned down the Clantons and McLaurys in a legendary gunfight at the OK Corral.

The sight of volunteers from across the United States treading the sidewalks with pistols riding on their hip, raises no eyebrows in the one-time silver mining town.
"We have 500 people a day with guns on their hips, so for us it's nothing unusual," Tombstone Mayor Andrew Dejournett told Reuters.

"The Minuteman fall within that long American tradition that includes freedom of speech and the right to bear arms, and I don't have a problem with that," he added.

Standing tall in a Stetson hat in the main street outside the OK Corral site, Arcangelo Coco says he applauds the group of volunteers who have come into the area with their brand of frontier justice.

"I support the Minutemen, and if I see them I'll shake their hand," Coco said, adding that they are not "gunslingers" but are just "out to defend themselves."

Others in the town, which hosts re-enactments of the famous gun fight each day at two o'clock sharp on the site of the long vanished corral, feel at ease with the Minuteman goal of sealing the U.S. border to illegal migrants from Mexico.

"I think they'll help, as there are so many people coming over who shouldn't be here," said retiree Vinnie Boxx, as he munched on popcorn in a gift shop selling cowboy souvenirs. "Something needs to be done about the border as it's wide open."

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=8104810

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[FWiedner]

Civilian Patrols Causing Drop in Illegal Immigration

AGUA PRIETA, Mexico -- The number of Mexican migrants trying to sneak into the United States through the Arizona border has dropped by half since hundreds of American civilians began guarding the area earlier this week, say Mexican officials assigned to protect their citizens.

But that doesn't mean the migrants have given up. Most remain determined to enter the United States and say they will simply find other places to cross.

Before Minuteman Project volunteers began patrolling, Mexican officials encountered at least 400 undocumented migrants daily. On Monday, the second day Minutemen were present, they spotted just 198, said Bertha de la Rosa of Grupo Beta, a Mexican government-sponsored group that discourages people from crossing illegally and aids those stranded in the desert.

Read the article at:

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/4/6/213303.shtml