What is long range

[Don Fischer]

We see everywhere that people talk about long range shooting. The copout always seem's to be, "it depend's on the user's ability.". I'm not so sure that's a very good answer. At some point, with all cartridge's, we quit shooting and start lobbing! Or for those who are offended that I would accuse you of that, some become more than the cartridge they're shooting. But if we were to determine long range as to the ability of the cartridge when giving sufficiently flat trajectory to stay inside say an 8" tube, the human factor get's taken out. I believe that long range when related to human abilities, really muddy's the water. I know guy's that couldn't hit a bull in the a## with a tennis racket that hunt with big magnum's to overcome their shortcoming's. So it seem's to me that the ability of the user and the ability of the cartridge, need be separated. A 300 super mag in the hand's of someone that can't shoot it into a 55 gal drum at 100 yds, is still a long range cartridge.

Using the theory of an 8" tube, I find my rifle's pretty much top out at around 300 yds or a bit under, which I believe is long range any way. I have the ability to shoot at tremendous distance's where I live and have discovered that for hunting, shooting in excess of 300 yds is never necessary. Actually shooting at all is never necessary, unless you are being charged by some pi%%ed off animal.

I guess this is a question of ethics more than anything else as there are those that will shoot great range's just because they can. How about this, long range is the range at which your cartridge can deliver a suitable weight hunting bullet with sufficient velocity and energy to cleanly kill the animal shot at and never rise above or fall below the line of sight more than 4".

I have never even shot at a game animal at 300 yds but I own cartridge's that have the ability. I shoot regularly at great distance's from field position's, but shooting at a rock and shooting at game are two different thing's. So where is the line between excessive and reasonable, and please don't say it depend's on the shooter. And please don't use making a kill as being the determing factor in the success of a hunt, nor the cost of the hunt to justify unreasonable shooting ranges.

[Jerry Lester]

I might catch some flames here, but in my opinion, long range for the vast majority of hunters would fall closer to the 200 yard mark. Most hunters hardly ever practice from actual field positions at any range, and far fewer practice from those positions much past 100 yards.

I used to get a big thrill from long range groundhogs(quite a few past 700 yards), and when you enter that realm of shooting you find out very quickly just how hard it is to consistantly connect on distant targets. I used to practice regularly at 500+ yards, not to mention the money invested in rifles, scopes, and handloading.

When it really boils down to it, some calibers shoot flatter, and hit harder at extreme ranges, but it's all worthless if you miss the vitals. I think like you do. Except for shooting varmints at long ranges for the challenge, I have yet to find a situation that I couldn't close the distance to within open sighted lever action range on a game animal.

[gwindrider1]

Just too many variables to post a concise answer to that question Don.  

After opening day of Antelope season in Wyoming, you had better be able to make a 500 yd. shot, as they won't allow you to get any closer.  The terrain coupled with the phenominal eyesight of those animals make it very challenging.

On the other hand, growing up in Alabama, a 200 yd. shot seemed pretty danged far off as I remember.

Personal ability, eyesight, training, conditioning, terrain, size of the animal, are all determining factors, and are all vaiable for each of us.

Personally, I get more satisfaction in trying to stalk closer than just taking the long shot, even when I am confident that I can make it.

[Don Fischer]

The question is not about what you can or better be able to do, it's about what's truely reasonable. 500 yd shot's are not reasonable, particularly in Wyo. where the wind alway's blows. The think you need to keep in mind is that you don't have to pull the trigger. Read the end of the orgional post!

[New Hampshire]

Well here in NH "average" is gonna be under 100 yards.  "Long" would probably be 200 yards as thats about as far as your gonna find open, shootable space around here, and even that is as rare as it gets.
Brian M.

[longwinters]

Long range in my neck of the woods would be anything over 150 yds.  Most shots are closer to 50-75 yds.  I've been to Wyoming, for antelope, after the 1st few opening days.  We hunted on land that is accessable to most people and  the antelope were very skittish.  Our shots were from 150 - 250 yds.  Most of our animals were taken using something for a rest; either a bipod or in my case a barbed wire fence.  I shoot quite a bit and would feel comfortable out to 300 yds.  But have never practiced further.  However the bottom line is that if I don't have a steady rest I doubt I would shoot much over 50 yds as all of my practice is from a rested position.

Long

[Don Fischer]

Well longwinters you say in your neck of the wood's but then talk of a Wyo. antelope hunt. But the guy before you said you need to be able to shoot to 500 yds, you say 250. You also say you shoot quite a bit and would feel comfortable shooting to 300 yds. That sound's reasonable to me but 500 yds doesn't. I certainly may be wrong.

I'm looking off my deck and I could set up a target anywhere from the muzzle to about two miles, maybe a bit more or less. I have both a 25-06 and a 6.5-06 that shoots to max point blank range of just under 300 yds.
On a good day, both will shoot into  a diamond with 2" sides at 300 yds. I regularly shoot at great distances and from field positions, coyote size targets are pretty easy to hit. But where does the distance break over from say moderate to long? Some distance must be long weather you can hit at it or not.

Maybe the problem here is that I'm asking a bunch of guy's that do shoot a lot and a few with egos to stroke, not aimed at anyone, to define what's reasonable rather than what's possible, but we always have a tendicity to reach for possibilities. So, what is reasonable?

[quigleysharps4570]

So, what is reasonable?

100 yards is reasonable for me in hunting situations. Can't see making a 200-300yd. shot when I can get closer and lessen the odds of something going wrong.

[earschplitinloudenboomer]

...watched a good special on sniper training the other day. These guys have their idea of "long range"...it has nothing to do with me, my ability or equipment though. At paper, I'll attempt any safe shot, nothing to lose.
At game however, if we are honest with ourselves, each of us know what long range is. On a range, from a bench rest, I have noticed a marked differance in trajectory when you pass 300 yards. At 300 yards, from a bench rest, a 6 oz styrofoam coffee cup filled with water is easy. At 400 yards from a bench rest, a 1 gallon milk jug is a challenge. Having said that, what do the guys at Camp Perry think?

[victorcharlie]

I spent most springs and summers of my youth shooting groundhogs with a Remington 788 .243 topped with a 3 X 9.........I went into the army at 18 and shot the M-16 at ranges to 300 meters......thousands of rounds out of the M-16.....qualified expert........One day, a drill instructor asked me what I thought of the M-16.......I told him I didn't like it much......he asked why.....my response was I could shoot the eye out of a groundhog at 300 yards with my 788, but you have to draw a pretty fine bead to hit a man sized target at 300 meters using the ghost ring sight on the M-16........Long range to me at the time with the .243 was a lot farther than with the M-16......Why?  Alot of it is equipment........the right gun, with the right optics and handloads, shot off a solid rest  will certainly extend the range quite a bit........there is no substitute for practice.....You have to know your equipment and your limitations......

[Don Fischer]

So what do you guy's think? If someone that didn't know was to ask what long range is, after the lecture on practice and equipment, say somewhere around 200 to 250 yds and let them figure it out from there?

[victorcharlie]

Yes, I'd say that's a pretty good figure to start with.......shooting in the army with the M-16, targets in the 200  meter range seemed a lot easier to hit than the 250 to 300 meter targets........again, crow's at 200 yards are a lot tougher to hit than something the size of an elk at the same range.......heck, I'd say a hundred yards is long range for a .22 lr, but easy for the .17 HMR......Long range is pretty "general" with out some kind of parameters set to justify the term.....

[Don Fischer]

Victorcharlie, I though I did make a parmeter. The ability to stay inside an 8" tube. Assuming a target size of about 16", that give's lot's of room for error. But it does elimanate some of the ultra blasting we read about.
I think it also allow's a relative novice a place to start. We all shoot to excess on ocassion for one reason or another, seldom a good reason. Because we might do that and sucede at time's, doesn't make it information worth passing on.

[longwalker]

In my opinion it is all what you know. If you hunt and shoot at game under 100 yards in the thick woods of the east you are hard pressed to see past 100 yards. At least thats how it was in Bucks County PA. IN the east, I don't think I ever shoot anything over 40 yards, and that might have been a bird.

I now live in South Dakota. You can see much farther, therefore you can shoot farther. But here is the trick, you have to train your eyes and your hands for the new requirements.  

As youngsters we shot rats, squirrels, rabbits ect. we taught our bodies how to do it then we can teach ourselves now for the new requirements. The trick is make the time to shot the way you are going to have to. If you will need to shoot from sticks practice from sticks. If you need to shoot from the prone postition practice that way. If you need to shoot at different distances you are going to have to find a way to do so.

The bottom line is burn gun powder, at targets that approximate the cirumstances you will encounter.    


longwalker

[alsatian]

I think you may have defined it: 300 yards.  An average diligent shooter with an adequate cartridge can hit the vitals 80% of the time at 300 yards.  Several cartridges are adequate -- .30-06, .25-06, .270, .338.  Wind effects may not normally be significant at 300 yards.  Some negotiation may be necessary to agree on the definition of "average diligent shooter."  For me, an average diligent shooter practices shooting several times a year which may include shooting from the bench, shooting from field positions, dry firing from field positions (I do a lot of this, personally, and find that it is a valuable contributor to steadiness -- I'm not sure how many other people do or who may also agree with the value of this exercise).  The average diligent shooter confirms his rifles zero immediately before a hunt -- within a week of the hunt or less.  The zero should be appropriate, for example 200 yards or 225 yards.  The average diligent shooter has selected a load which shoots decent groups, for example 1.5" or better, and uses the load with which he has zeroed his rifle on the hunt.

At 400 yards, maybe the .30-06, .270, .25-06, .338 aren't your best choice, as they are dropping quickly at 400 yards.  Then you may need to think about a more specialized cartridge.  When you get beyond the point-blank range of the cartridge, where the bullet is dropping fast, the shooting becomes much more difficult because your range guesstimate must be very accurate.  Wind effects become significant and you probably need to be able to dope the wind proficiently to achieve the 80% vitals hit.  Wind effect is not linear with range.  And, of course, at 400 yards the human error is just that much more opening up of your group.  It becomes a whole higher level of difficulty, in my opinion, to hit in the vitals 80% of the time at 400 yards.

I feel comfortable shooting at 200 yards.  I think 300 yards is getting to my limit.  I have shot a pronghorn antelope at 240 yards, and while I felt comfortable with the shot, I was "feeling the range."  I think I can see whether I am within my range limits or not.  That is, how steady I can hold is something I can see in my scope.  My range limit is not so great that rapid bullet drop or wind drift become effects I have to compensate for.  I have to worry principally about my ability to hold steadily on target, and this I can observe in my scope.

[quigleysharps4570]

I think you may have defined it: 300 yards.  An average diligent shooter with an adequate cartridge can hit the vitals 80% of the time at 300 yards.

In my opinion 80% isn't good enough. What kind of shot does that deer get on the (20%) off day?

[alsatian]

I think you may have defined it: 300 yards.  An average diligent shooter with an adequate cartridge can hit the vitals 80% of the time at 300 yards.

In my opinion 80% isn't good enough. What kind of shot does that deer get on the (20%) off day?

I'll bite: what percentage are you comfortable with?  If you want 100%, we are all going to be shooting at close range.  I'm guessing that all of us are capable of missing the vitals at 50 yards at least once out of 10,000 chances.  How would this happen?  Bad random cartridge.  A sudden attack of appendicitis, heart burn, kidney stone, tooth ache.  A loud noise.  A flinch.  Buck fever.  Foot slips.  Scope unsuspectedly knocked out of wack.  Has anyone shot at a game animal and missed the vitals, ever?  I have.  And it didn't take 10,000 shots to miss, and I wasn't shooting at 300 yards.  If nothing else, I think my criteria of 80% provides something like a liberal limit to what qualifies as long range.  Maybe, indeed, the percentage should be higher than 80%, but less than 100%, which would further reduce the yardage that qualifies as "long range."

[Lawdog]

Long range to me means anytime someone is pushing the limit of their "comfort zone".  The "comfort zone" varies from shooter to shooter.  I know some hunters where anything near or over 200 is really pushing their ability.  Then there are the hunters that consistently practice at ranges up to 500 yards and even over that distance.  Example is my wife doesn’t like to shoot over 250 or so yards while I start having questions about making a clean kill over the 400 yard mark even though I practice shooting out to 500 yards.  Long range differs from hunter to hunter.  Lawdog
 

[Don Fischer]

I too shoot at some very long ranges,, in practice. But in the original post I said, "when the human factor is taken out.". I am well aware that the abilities of one compared to another vary greatly. Because of that, the water get's real muddy. At some point the ability of all cartridge's to stay in the kill zone deteriorate's and then the skill of the user takes over. It seem's that most cartridge's start loosing it somewhere around 300 yds. For sure, at that point thing's start falling off real fast and as I said, it become's more a business of getting the right lob rather than using trajectory inherent to a cartridge.

[Nightrain52]

Let's take the term long range out and substitute killing shot. A killing shot means you can place your bullet in the vitals of the game animal you are hunting. Most of todays popular hunting rounds are capable of killing shots at great distances but that doesn't mean we should be shooting at those distances. Each individual has there own limits as to how far they can make killing shots. For some hunters that dust off the deer rifle once a year and fire 2 or 3 shots at a target and say they are ready it is different than someone who does a lot of practice shooting. I guess what I am trying to say is there is no definition of a longe range shot.

[roper]

Don, I had to say this but your setting the condition you want someone else to shoot at, your talking 8" tube 16" high I assume when you are talking rise or fall above 4" that the bullet flight and you never taken a game animal at 300yds.                                                                Today you can buy bullets and rifles to take game animal alot further than just 10yrs ago and yes it's the shooter ability to use them and knowledge.  Everyone always refers back to the once a year shooter etc and lets beat up on him and that fine if thats what you want to compare yourself too.                                                                                        I work DOW and a private gun club site in days before hunting season and 90% are pretty good shooter and the other 10% are so-so and really just out to be with their friend and really don't care if they shoot something and it's a once a year outing for them.
Long range hunting takes alot more than shooting inside an 8" tube it's a good bullet,caliber,velocity,remaining energy,bullet drop and a good understand of ballistic in general.  A long range hunter knows the limits on their rifles.   Long range hunting isn't for everyone and it's a shame that people want to pick it apart.  Fred Huntington (RCBS) developed the 30-338 as a 1000yd elk rifle in 1958 and he used that rifle.
My wife likes the close in stuff kind of sneaking around and she is pretty good at it me I'm above timber line for elk so when we each get one who right and who is wrong "nobody".

[High Brass]

Long range for ME

bow: 40 yards (absolute max. limit under perfect conditions)
centerfire handgun: 75 yards (same as above)
rimfire rifle:50 yards
centerfire rifle: when I start having to consider trajectory which is anything over 220 yards.  I know by shooting that from 0-220 yards witha mid-chest hold on broadside deer that I'll hit the lungs.  After than I need to hold higher.  If it's at a range where I cannot hold on "hair" I don't shoot.  FWIW, I've never had to consider this on any deer that I've shot as all have been well under 200 yards, most under 100.

[KN]

Long range? Thats easy! Its when you need a shot or two for ranging distance. Such as prairie doggin. Shooting at game at "Long Range" is just irresponsible. Course thats just my opinion.   KN

[nomosendero]

Don Fischer
This is an old thread & I started not to reply, but what to heck I just read it today! I did read the original post but Lawdog had it right to talk about the shooter. The human element must be considered if a human is involved. I have a Caddy parked outside with a LT1 engine & it is quiet fast. So, how fast will it take the sharpest curves between here & town? If I get Mark Martin to break away from his Ford Dealership in Batesville & "try it out" & if I give it my best & I get a beginner to do his max speed(no thanks), we would have 3 different speeds even though we used the same car & the same conditions. The same is true with long range shooting. The first varmit rifle I owned was a Ruger .220 Swift back in the 70's. My first couple of years I did not want to shoot beyond 200 yards but later as I became more proficient I actually doubled this distance WITH THE SAME EQUIPMENT! Today with the right equipment & THE RIGHT CONDITIONS, I go somewhat beyond that! Oh yea, the right conditions. This is yet another variable that cannot be ignored. If the wind is blowing, my maximum distance that I am willing to shoot at a living animal decreases in direct proportion to the increase in wind velocity & unfavorable direction.
As far as the cartridge is concerned, the bullet path can be plotted &
dealt with either with clicks or with a mil-dot or ballistic-plex type of
reticle, which ever method you are proficient with. It is also easy to determine if the cartridge will have sufficient velocity, energy & bullet performance at that range. Then the accuracy of the gun is an issue. I would be willing to shoot much further with a .300 mag that shoots in the .3's than one that shoots in a 1 1/2". Then factor in how good your rest/bipod set-up is & a good rangefinder which has changed how far I am willing to shoot.
In summary, the rifle/cartridge, you & the enviorment become one &
"you" must decide how far you can shoot at that moment. It is impossible
for us to come up with an arbitrary yardage and say that this is the
maximum yardage.
As Clint Eastwood so correctly stated, "a man's got to know his limitations".
Thanks:  Rod Smith
             Pocahontas, Ar.

[Land_Owner]

You kicked the top off of this ant pile again.  The long range "definition"

...trajectory to stay inside say an 8" tube, the human factor get's taken out

is bunk.  There is no Ransome Rest in the blind, only human hands.  The US Legislature saw to that with the elimination of closed circuit TV (Internet) Hunting.

My son is a US Marine.  Every day our Marines are trained on three firing lines from 100m (109y), 300m (328y), 500m (546y), a host, but not all, at 1000m (1093y), and Snipers at much greter max. distance (classified).   These are hunters of the most dangerous animals on the planet.  They train at these distances with the M-16 and peep sights (IMO open sights) to be accomplished for anything in between.  

The longest practice ranges (sniper) are not shot with open sights.  IMO, victorcharlie said it best

........there is no substitute for practice.....You have to know your equipment and your limitations......

.  Max. range is up to the limitations of the individual and their equipment.  Ethics sets in AFTER a poor shot fails to incapacitate the game.

[nomosendero]

Land_Owner
Amen brother & good post! I very much appreciate your son's service!
I did not discuss the 8" tube part because it does not really factor into long range shooting. Why do I say that?
1. If you know the range (more important than the tube) you can hold over the desired amount or click-up as I mentioned in my first post. So
in the case of the 8" tube, you can place your bullet in the middle of the
tube instead of hitting somewhere in the tube. There is no reason now not
to use a rangefinder & no excuse to not know your bullet path to the
maximum distance you will shoot.
2. Trajectory is important but to stay within a given area or "tube" group
size is extremely important. 1" at 100 yards is a start, but if shooting over
300 yards 1/2" is much better. Also, know what groups the rifle shoots to
the maximum range you will be shooting. My point in this is that we can
allow for trajectory to stay in an area but without very good accuracy we
would group outside of the "tube".
3. The most difficult part of all is the WIND!!!!!!!
Trajectory is much easier to allow for than the wind. We can range find the
distance & know our trajectory & know that our rifle has the accuracy at
that yardage, but the WIND can bite you in the rear. The wind is harder
to allow for because it can be fluctuating & the wind velocity can be
different at the target than it is where you are. You must look at this first
& make your calculations. If you can't, don't shoot.
This is why I like heavy bullets like the 200Gr. Accubond in a 300 mag.
in these situations because of the much reduced wind drift compared to
a lighter bullet. The heavy bullets are much more forgiving in the wind &
I can allow for the trajectory anyway. Without these wind considerations
you will be out of the tube!
All of these things are controlled by the man pulling the trigger.
Thank you!
Rod Smith

[Buckskin]

Not a very good question to begin with.  To may variables.

Shooter, caliber, weather.  There is no consistant answer.

[nomosendero]

Buckskin
You are 100 percent correct!
That is why the marksman has to make a quality decision, are the conditions (all of them) right to pull the trigger at this moment.

[Dusty Miller]

Heck, I've NEVER shot at anything over 200 yards away so I guess "long range" for me 201 yards!

[Land_Owner]

Dusty:  Good one!  

For some "long range" starts at the end of the barrel, especially those taking a gun from the box and directly into the hunting field, or without any practice from year to year, or at running game.