Is this what's really happening....?

[TM7]

Is this what's REALLY happening? This could turn people into liberals [or radicals] pretty quick for lack of an answer and political concern. I think the same is happening within  the country by the importation of an underclass of labor.
.
 Read about some folks and communities, FYI ---  http://www.rescueamericanjobs.org/


.............TM7

[BamBams]

How do you think I got so poor so quickly?

Let's see:

When I started, it was called Digital Equipment Corp, then Compaq bought it and laid off about 10,000 people.  Then Hewlett Packard bought Compaq, and Hewlett Packard laid off about 20,000 in one year.  I'm now working at a fast food restaurant for less than 1/3 of what I used to make as a professional and I have no benefits at all.  My job is now being done for Hewlett Packard by a company in India!

You're darn right it's happening!

[Haywire Haywood]

I'm no expert but I think as the world gets smaller and economies merge that we will see nothing but more of this to come.  In an effort to remain competitive, companies are forced to seek ways to cut costs and labor, I think, is the largest cost a company faces. Either our wages will fall to compete with what other countries have to offer or the price we pay in the store will skyrocket.  The result is the same.  Our buying power will fall and our standard of living will fall right along with it.  

The only way to stop this is to enact protective tariffs to bump the price of imported cheap stuff up to the level of what we can produce ourselves. Kinda like economic isolation. I seem to recall there are some pretty substantial negative repercussions from this long term too, I forget.  Goodbye Dollar Stores.

Our products being produced with higher labor costs are hard to market overseas because they have to compete with folks producing the same thing at a much lower cost..

Again, this is just my shallow understanding on international markets... I'm probably wrong.  :mrgreen:

Ian

[cma g21]

Labor costs (including wages, benefits, etc.) are often a significant factor. But even if wages were to fall, U.S. based businesses might still not be competitive due to other costs such as taxes, OSHA compliance, EPA compliance, etc..

[williamlayton]

Some of this is the results of incompetent management--at the highest levels. Most forget that sales result from people being able to purchase products.
Jobs are lost when no person can afford to purchase THINGS.
You cannot produce a product inexpensively enough for the poor to purchase it.
Blessings
PS--lot of holes in this arguement, however I am speaking from an end results of this scene.

[fe352v8]

I was wondering about this.  When I woke up this morning, to the GE alarm, made in Taiwan.  I surfed the net on my HP computer, made in China.  I called a friend on my Motorola phone, made in Malaysia.  I decided to go out, so I put on my Levi’s, made in Honduras.  It was chilly out so I put on a Puritan sweater, made in Hong Kong, and laced up my Converses’, made in China.  My friend came by and picked me up in her PT Cruiser, made in Mexico.  I bought her some gas at Amoco, now British Petroleum.  Did some home improvement work; the 2x4s were Canadian.  Went home and watched some TV, it is a Magnavox, owned by a Dutch company and made in Japan.  Decided to watch a movie from Columbia pictures, now owned by Sony, on the VCR made by RCA in Korea. Read an e-mail from my son the Marine, he was made in the US, sent on his IBM laptop, made in China, and he mentioned that his new batch of M-16 ammo was made in Israel; at least his pistol was made in the US, by an Italian company.  Decided to watch some news and turned on Fox, owned by an Australian. Looked at my Timex, made in Singapore and decided to turn in.  Snuggled under my Canon sheets, made of Egyptian cotton, woven in China, and finished in Taiwan.  Ah, maybe after a good night sleep I’ll figure it out, or maybe I’ll take the Winchester, made by a French company, to the range, then again I could take the Browning, made in Japan or maybe the Browning made in Belgium.

Life is no joke but funny things happen

jon

[JPSaxMan]

:shock:

[fe352v8]

Fish,

I take it you are puzzled by my post.  Capitalism is driven by the maximization of profit.  The pursuit of profit makes the means of production subordinate.  Therefore the needs of labor, which is merely human capital, in as much, as it is a means of production, is subordinate to the pursuit of profit.  In a free market economy, such as ours, the owners of the means of production must be free to purchase the required means of production as efficiently as possible.   With this requirement for the efficient investment in the means of production, in order to maximize profit, it naturally follows that the resources, allocated for acquiring of these means of production be expended in locations that entail the lowest expenditure.

In the dynamics of a free market economy like ours, there naturally occurs, temporary displacement of some of the means of production, such as labor, until market demand causes a reallocation of the resources, or means of production, in a more efficient manner.

To put it on a more personal level, IBM has a guy in Bombay that can do what you did for less than half the cost in wages, plus they incur no long-term pension or benefit liabilities.  Thus IBM has cut the cost of production and increased profits.  You are merely a temporarily displaced means of production, awaiting the market forces that will reallocate the means of production.  But are you worried; No.  Because in this dynamic free market economic system you know that IBM is going to take those extra profits made from, cutting the cost of production, and use them to acquire additional means of production, such as labor, so they can produce more products and thus make more profits.  Thus you will soon have a better job than you had.

That my friend is the magic of trickle down economics, or in more technical terms, S#!T FLOWS DOWN HILL.

Life is no joke but funny things happen

jon

[magooch]

The moral of this story would seem to be to get some kind of gubmint job.

[Leverdude]

The moral of this story would seem to be to get some kind of gubmint job.

Nah, theres already way too many Gov't jobs sucking our economy dry.
There the worst ones in that generally they make no money for anyone yet get some of the best pay & benefits in the country.

The moral of this story is we need to get realistic about the costs of living in the good old USA.

Cut gov't spending, cut gov't jobs, cut gov't benefits. This way the tax burden wont be so high that you need to make more money than your industry can support to live here. One would think that with all of the current technology the government would be shrinking but thats not the case because, one thing for sure, no matter what, Washington sure takes care of its own.
Our companies wouldn't be going overseas if they could make money here.

[JPSaxMan]

fe,

Not confused in the least. Just never thought about how many of the products (like the one I'm typing on, the one I'm looking through, the one I'm listening to, the ones I'm wearing) are NOT made in the USA. Kinda scary when ya stop and think about it.  :shock:  

[ironglow]

So what's the other alternative?
 
 Castro/cuba...Il/N.Korea....the Soviet Union is washed up

   The only place Communism is truly respected is in American Universities...by prof that do very well with their tenure guaranteed, capitalist-produced checks.

  Socialist Europe does the same outsourcing...and have much higher unemployment rates than we do.
  From my experience living in Europe...the only thing Socialism does for the people is to curtail their freedom..(e.g. gun ownership)

   Our job, it would seem is to be even more competitive and don't be sucked into things like the Kioto agreement that puts serious impediments on American production while letting countries like India and China..yes China...completely off the environmental hook.
 
  The "rich" countries that got sucked into this lopsided agreement are already regretting it...wait till the restrictions start coming into effect in the next few years !
  Considering places like Europe and Canada...some jobs may come back here...if they don't go to "off the hook" countries...

   Just something to think about !

[Dali Llama]

My friend came by and picked me up in her PT Cruiser, made in Mexico.  I bought her some gas at Amoco, now British Petroleum.  

So liberal fe352v8 do have at least have one female friend, note Dali Llama. :grin:  :grin:  :grin:

[ironglow]

Dali;
    Hey.....liberal tree huggers don't drive PT Cruisers...they drive volvos..

  Either she's not liberal...or she's not a tree hugger....LOL

  Just kidding Fe...

[Dali Llama]

Dali;
    liberal tree huggers don't drive PT Cruisers...they drive volvos..

  Either she's not liberal...or she's not a tree hugger....

   :-D  

[Qtip]

TM7,

Good post. That's exactly what is going on. A globalized economy ushering in a globalized government and your sovereignty,freedoms, and rights down the crapper. Those at the top end of the food chain will keep their power and others will have less. What truly irks me is the lack of any gratitude most of these corps. show American workers. Most of these corps. owe their success to hardworking Americans and American ingenuity and they slap us in the face in return. Why? Because we won't work for peon wages like Mexicans and Chinese? Let the CEO's work for peon wages and see how they scream.

Qtip
Soli Deo Gloria!
To God Alone Be The Glory!

[Haywire Haywood]

My wife, who has much more formal edumakashun than I, says that most economies are built upon a manufacturing base.  The stronger your base, the more product you have to sell, etc etc.. you get where I'm going.  Our manufacturing base is fleeing our shores like so many rats from a sinking ship.  Where will that leave us?  We've got to find something that we can produce that we alone have the technology/ability to, and then keep it to ourselves.

She says that the developing countries that are without safety regulations, labor laws, minimum wage, etc are in the same position that we were 100 years ago... sweat shops full of kids and women doing piecework for pennies.  Theoretically, as their base grows and they gain marketshare, their workforce will demand advances toward the same safety regulations, labor laws and minimum wages that our workers enjoy now.  Now, this doesn't account for cultural differences, civil wars, etc that would impede progress.

So don't worry, in a hundred years, give or take a decade or two, we'll all be in the same hole.  Ours will just be deeper till they catch up some.

Ian

[Dali Llama]

TM7,

 Let the CEO's work for peon wages and see how they scream.

Like a $#@!ing mashed feline, suggest Dali Llama!! :-)

[JPSaxMan]

We've got to find something that we can produce that we alone have the technology/ability to, and then keep it to ourselves.

Ian,

We can't even keep our military a secret from foreign countries. Back a ways the United States built the F-14 and F-15 jet fighters, the top of the line with radar systems and weapons. Not long after, the Russians copied the F-15 design with the MiG-29 and also implied some of the F-14 dynamics into the MiG. Now it's being acclaimed that the MiG-29 is better overall than the F-15. Now we're coming out with the F-22 to knock the Russian reputation.

My point is, if we can't even keep our military operations a secret, what makes one think we can keep our general productions a secret either? Just my :money:  

[ironglow]

Good post Hatwire..I am not at all comfortable with the " service based " economy we are heading into..
 
   I believe that any economy that is solid has TANGIBLE products..

[Haywire Haywood]

Even our services are leaving to some extent.  Anybody call customer service for something lately and get some Indian that can barely speak english?  That roomful of telephone cubicles is in India somewhere.

Ian

[JPSaxMan]

I believe that any economy that is solid has TANGIBLE products..

You wouldn't have been referring to my post, now would have you ironglow?

The thing I meant was I think the CIA can keep anything secret they want. And that's usually military operations. So if they couldn't keep the military a secret, and Russia was able to copy that, what are the chances they'd be able to keep, a new automobile, or a new type of transport from the rest of the world? I'd say pretty slim.  

[Haywire Haywood]

Yep, that's true, the first time we sold "Product X" to anyone, they would disassemble and reverse engineer it. Logical.

Ian

[MGMorden]

Now we're coming out with the F-22 to knock the Russian reputation.

But the Russians already have the Su-37 which is pretty much an equal of the F-22 (and the Russian bird actually has a must more advanced thrust vectoring system).

The bottom line is that most of the manufacturing jobs left the USA a long time ago.  The majority of the stuff being exported to India and China now are not really things that we can put import tariffs on, because they're not physical property.  For instance many computer programming jobs (my particular field) are being sent over to India.  The Indian workers can generally live decently comfortable on $5000 US per year whereas an American could never live on that much.  You can't really put tariffs on the work they do though because they simply create data.  Once the data/programs are created you can't really quantify data.  They can email 3 years work over in about 10 minutes and then it becomes 10,000 copies with the slightest of efforts.  

Another area that is rapidly being shifted out is advertising jobs and call center jobs.  Neither are really producing a product (the advertisers are producing ideas which can be printed anywhere the company desires).  The only thing that the US could do to stop this would be to give tax breaks to companies that keep a percentage of their jobs domestically located, but then again that's only going to shift the tax burden from wealthy execs down to the average worker.  

The only light I see is that eventually the economics will balance out.  American wages will lowever, Indian/Chinese/etc wages will rise, and we'll all be stuck somewhere in the middle.  I don't know how long that'll take, but it'll probably result in a huge gap between the rich and the poor, but it's communism that suggests that everyone be financially equal (though it has never actually worked out that way).

Truth be told I can't really blame the companies.  They are doing what capitalism rewards: generating profits.  And I can't blame the Indians or Chinese.   They want to feed their children and send them to school as much as we do.  It's just a sad situation that we can't really do a lot about.

Luckily I managed to get work in the government sector.  A lot of other people in professional fields are having trouble finding work right now.

[Dali Llama]

I managed to get work in the government sector.  

That be good for you, say Dali Llama. :-)

[JPSaxMan]

MGMorden,

I'm gonna have to look into this, but last I checked, the F-22 was more advanced than any of the Russian jets as far as weapon systems. The F-22 has a point and lock system where the pilot can use his vision (goggles) to lock on to an aircraft instead of the radar acquired lock system. This gives the pilot a faster ability to lock on to an oncoming enemy fighter (that means either landing the plane or pulling the ejection handle in some cases). I'll also look at the max speeds of the two. I could sware the F-22 was the best of the two, but maybe not. Damn Russians   .  

[Curtis]

The only light I see is that eventually the economics will balance out

I am of the opinion that long before it equals out, the American consumer (read middle class) will be too poor to buy the products that support the very companies that outsourced the labor to build them.  In other words, American corperations are just robbing Peter to pay Paul which is the oldest scam in the books.  It is a house of cards that will eventually collapse.

Curtis

[MGMorden]

MGMorden,

I'm gonna have to look into this, but last I checked, the F-22 was more advanced than any of the Russian jets as far as weapon systems. The F-22 has a point and lock system where the pilot can use his vision (goggles) to lock on to an aircraft instead of the radar acquired lock system. This gives the pilot a faster ability to lock on to an oncoming enemy fighter (that means either landing the plane or pulling the ejection handle in some cases). I'll also look at the max speeds of the two. I could sware the F-22 was the best of the two, but maybe not. Damn Russians   .  

It may be the best as far as weapons go.  I'm not sure but they're pretty close either way.  The Su-37 is more manueverable though.  It utilizes omni-directional thrust-vectoring whilst the F-22 is limited to verticle thrust vectoring (basically the jet nozzles of the F-22 can move up or down, which is in itself a great advancement, but on the Su-37 they can turn up and down or side to side).  They're both great planes though.  The Eurofighter on the other hand hasn't been fairing so well.  It's one of the newer designs that's supposed to be on par with the F-22 and the Su-37, but it's been losing to F-15's in most war-games.  

That being said I think the military (all branches) will be focusing on the F-35 much more than the F-22 anyways.  It's not nearly as good a fighter, but it is quite versatile and at $15 Million for an F-35 versus $90 million for an F-22 it's a much better bargain.

[SAWgunner]

fe352v8,,,,what your describing is the current mindset of the World's Rulers be it the Bersbergers, WTO, Trilateral Trade Commission, Illuminati, Freemasons, European Bankers US Congress, etc, and whoever. But I think instead of Capitalism we are experiencing a Global perversion of Capitalism and a morphing of Capitalism with governance. In competitons there are rules, [eg. in golf, football, baseball whatever have rules]. The current Globalist Capitalist [both parties in this country] have dispensed with rules:  tariffs, immigration laws, local production incentives, etc. for the purpose of some abstract sense of a Global and liberal World---a philosophy that can spell doom to a local indigenous population. They have made their motives clear by their actions and they must be ousted. Capitalism and competition may be fine for production purposes within a monetary system but should be relagated to a back seat when it comes to the welfare of a 'people' otherwise a slavery situation may result.
.
.
Bam Bams.....I'm sorry and troubled by the hardtimes in this chapter of your life. As you are no doubt intelligent and industrious, I'm certain a new chapter is in the stars for you---keep plugging away and good luck and stay PMA.


...........TM7

TM7,

I suggest a little research into the groups you mention above, especially us (Freemasons) and Illuminati.  Freemasonry is so far away from any economic ties that it might as well be on the moon.  I do not pretend to know your family and sling accusations about them as an outsider, and I would hope you would stop doing the same.


SAWgunner

[SAWgunner]

MGMorden,

I'm gonna have to look into this, but last I checked, the F-22 was more advanced than any of the Russian jets as far as weapon systems. The F-22 has a point and lock system where the pilot can use his vision (goggles) to lock on to an aircraft instead of the radar acquired lock system. This gives the pilot a faster ability to lock on to an oncoming enemy fighter (that means either landing the plane or pulling the ejection handle in some cases). I'll also look at the max speeds of the two. I could sware the F-22 was the best of the two, but maybe not. Damn Russians   .  

It may be the best as far as weapons go.  I'm not sure but they're pretty close either way.  The Su-37 is more manueverable though.  It utilizes omni-directional thrust-vectoring whilst the F-22 is limited to verticle thrust vectoring (basically the jet nozzles of the F-22 can move up or down, which is in itself a great advancement, but on the Su-37 they can turn up and down or side to side).  They're both great planes though.  The Eurofighter on the other hand hasn't been fairing so well.  It's one of the newer designs that's supposed to be on par with the F-22 and the Su-37, but it's been losing to F-15's in most war-games.  

That being said I think the military (all branches) will be focusing on the F-35 much more than the F-22 anyways.  It's not nearly as good a fighter, but it is quite versatile and at $15 Million for an F-35 versus $90 million for an F-22 it's a much better bargain.

While I was in the military, I attended an Air Show in another part of the world and witnessed the Su-47 Berkut (The Russians refer to it as, and I quote, "Raptor Killer").  This aircraft is so much more advanced than our F-22 that it is scary.  The Sukhoi 47 has 360 degree thrust vectoring nozzles as opposed to the F-22s 180 degree TVNs.  I have extensive knowledge of both, studied them in depth and have made presentations for both, and the Su47 is the clear cut winner.


SAW