Getting Started/CH and CH4D equipment

[John C]

Hello all;

I've recently gotten into bullet casting with a shooting buddy of mine.  This has sparked an interest in swaging bullets.

I went a little nuts on eBay, and bought a bunch of swaging stuff.  I looked at Corbin's and RCE's stuff, and although the quality is evident, the price is a little much for someone still in college.  So i saw some old CH Swag-O-Matic dies and won them.  I knew I needed a press, so I also bid on a Swag-O-Matic press.  It turns out that the press I won lacked the top piece which holds the nose punch.  

To this end, I called up CH4D last week and broke down and ordered a set of conventional reloading press swaging dies, one for .45 half jacketed, and one for .357 base guard bullets.  I plan on  using my Swag-o-matic press to swage, since it has a conversion to use conventional reloading dies.

I also won a .310 core mold, which I'm going to use for .357 cores or bullets.  If I'm swaging base guard bullets, do I need, or can I use, undersized cores?  Or will I need cores closer to .357?

I also won a CH lead wire cutter.  Talon, you mentioned in another post that you were willing to sell lead wire in hobbyist lengths.  Does this still stand?  If so, I'm interested!  Otherwise, I guess I can contact some of the suppliers listed in another thread.

In what circumstances is swaging lube required/suggested?  As I understand, it's not required for base guard bullets.  How about half jacketed?

Does anyone have any experience with CH or CH4D equipment?  How would you rate it?  Do you have any advice?  Does anyone have any old CH Swag-o-matic parts/stuff they want to sell?

Can anyone tell me about the relative merits of half-jacketed bullets versus base guard bullets?

I pretty much only shoot pistols, and I'm taking up bullseye shooting, so I want to make some precision bullets.

I have the idea that since I am in need of a burly reloading press, if I end up liking swaging, I may just get a Walnut Hill press and use it for reloading and swaging using my CH4D dies.  How well suited is the Walnut Hill press for reloading pistol and conventional rifles rounds (no .50 BMG)?  My fear is that it's TOO burly, and therefore unsuited to easily reloading.  Also, is is feasible to use the Walnut Hill with conventional reloading press swaging dies?  My understanding is that the Walnut Hill actually works like the CH Swag-o-matic, the die is in the ram, and nose punch is in the press body.  Is there a reason why it's done this way?  More efficient?

How much pressure is generated in swaging base guard pistol bullets?  Will I ruin my Lee O frame press (made out of cheap zinc)?  Not that I'm worried about it, just curious.

Sorry for all the questions.  I'm looking forward to getting started.

Thanks!

-John C

[talon]

John C, first let me say that I've never used  the CH and Walnut Hill swage presses. One of the things I've commented on in the recent past is assuming the things you are buying on various auction sites and flea markets will do the job even after the person who sold them to you usually says " They were my dead Uncles stuff... I know nothing about them... I'm only helping out my poor Aunt". A purchase of a used item is particulary dangerous if you aren't really sure what it looks like or really is suppose to do to start with. At the minimum you should get a guarantee that if parts are missing, or worn beyond use, it won't be acceptable and you expect payment to be returned. CH/4D is a quality company and you can trust their tooling. BUT, I don't believe they handle base guard dies. They go with zinc washer technology which some folks believe is a generation or two behind the Corbin Base Guard system. Their 1-die tooling  are excellent for making lead and 1/2 Jacketed pistol bullets. Their 2-die system make quite satisfactory 3/4 Jacketed bullets and are well worth the money. But, you must use a Rock-Chucker type quality press to do any swaging as even swaging soft lead bullets will over stress less strong reloading presses over time ( say, 2000 rounds) and cause failure of the toggle linkages or even the ram's integrity.
  A .310 core will work: a .360 is preferable, of course, but a .310 soft lead will do the job as long as the core is fully in the die before the bottom punch starts to bring pressure to bare. It would be safe always to make sure at least one caliber of the pinch length is inside the die cavity before you start to feel any resistance. (that is to say, if you are swaging .44 caliber bullets, the punch should be about .44" within the die body before the core starts to get compressed. If not, the punch can get bent, the mouth of the die scared, or both.). Yes, I can supply a small amount of wire: send me a PM for details. There's only 2 others on this board who've asked so far, because I'm not a mass supplier. As to swaging lub... it is REQUIRED 110% of the time!!! More problems in swaging are caused by the simple lack of lubrication that all other problems put together. Period. I can provide you with a relatively inexpensive formula to make your own bullet swaging lub, but if you don't intend to do more than 20,000 bullets you can get a 2 oz jr from RCE or Corbin Co. A little goes a long long way. Remember, swaging lub is not the same bullet lub you use to put in a bullet's cannelures. The former is to allow ease of forming a bullet under 25,000PSI, the latter to keep the barrel clean when you snap a cap on a cartridge. These lubs are technically quite different. Finally, bullet Lub really isn't necessary with jacketed of base protected bullets. Too, if you keep velocity below 1200fps, and your target is just paper or tin cans, a pure lead bullet is perfect for the job. If velocity is greater, or game animals are involved, then you may want to consider jackets to control expansion. Here there is lots of controversy that goes beyond pure swaging technology: some say there's nothing better than plain old water cooled wheelweight wide meplat bullets at 1600fps to drop a hog: others say a thick jacketed bullet with XYZ point is the thing to use. Each to his own. Within the range of 90% expectation I really don't believe there is much of a difference for most of us. Placement is, after all, the true divider. While I don't use a Walnut Hill Press, it uses the same theory as the Corbin 'S' Press. The reason why the die body is in the ram is it's much easier to handle and manipulate the bullet. Easier to drop into and take out of a hole than to balance upon a punch tip. Also, ejection is a lot simpler. Yes, I think the 'S' Press and it's clones is less perfect for the basic job of swaging 45 caliber and less bullets than the old mity mite system. I do the majority of my bullet swaging on mity mites, but the perpendicular press ( WH & S) is superior for jacket reduction, and it can be used for a reloading press, and makes reforming brass a real snap. Unfortunately the only place you'll find a Mity Mite today is at a junk yard, estate sale, flea market or one of the auction sites. But, remember the warning at the top of this item.

[John C]

Thank you for all the information.  I'll be sending you a PM shortly.

I think we have different points of view on used stuff: I actually like bidding on fuzzy pictures on eBay.  I enjoy the challenge of seeing if what I got was what I thought it was.  Usually that's how I get the best deals, no one else knows what it is, either.  Even when I need to buy parts (like in the case of two dillon presses I bought), I still came out ahead, since the price ended up being so low.  I figure that if I can't do anything with it, I can put it back up on eBay and sell it for a dollar less than I paid for it, less shipping.  I've only been 'burned' once, with this swag-o-matic press, which in fact still works fine as a reloading press.  I've never really won something that wasn't serviceable due to wear of broken parts.  I do respect your warning, though.

I saw on CH4D's website that their base washers are zinc.  Other than material, are they any different than Corbin's Base Guards?  Could I just slip a brass base guard into a CH4D die and have it work?  

I'm definitely going to follow your advice and get a 2 oz. jar of swage lube.

Do you swage 1/2 jacket bullets?  I've heard from some people that they work great, and from others that they lead like crazy.  What's you opinion?

What's the difference between an S press and a Walnut Hill?  Is one better than the other?

An acquaintance of mine has two mity-mites, but won't part with either (I asked), and he doesn't have them locally.  I'll have to wait until I get the swaging dies and see what I can do with them.

Thanks so much for your reply!

-John

[talon]

John C, I've sent you a PM. I 'can do' on the wire, but it will be in about a month until I return to the shop. I'm one of those snowbirds that seek warmth in the winter.

[John C]

Swage;

Yes, I have thought about molding cores.  In fact, I bought a .310 (I think, I'll have to check) core mold off ebay.  But I want to try lead wire, too.  I already cast somewhat, but I'm interested in making more precise bullets.  Plus, I want something to do on inclement days, whereas I can't easily cast in my current setup when the wind is blowing, or when it's raining or snowing.  

I'm getting into centerfire bullseye shooting (I already shoot .22s in competition), and I want to research ways to make highly precise pistol bullets.  

Like Talon, I'm a man of modest means, being in college.  Luckily, I have a lovely wife who supports my bad habits.

I've been reading the old posts in this forum for the back information.  You guys sure do know alot!

Swage, what setup are you using?  What are you interests, in terms of swaging?  

Talon, in an email you mentioned that you are primarily interested in swaging full jacket bullets for use on game, but swage a lot of 1/2 jacket ammo.  What are your primary swaging interests?  What setup do you have/use?

Thanks,

-John

[bullet maker]

Good morning guy`s

    I have bought equipment from both Dave and Richard, and they are both fine gentlement. But I think too much technology, shouldn`t be so expensive, nor hard to come by. I also have empty pockets most of the time, so when I order anything I have to save up for it.
   May I add,  little has been brought up about the local machinist in any local. Example, I have the pleasure, of having a wonderful machinst, (master), that can take any die that has worn out, or anything on bullet swaging, and make it better and a whole lot cheaper :eek: yes it has lasted as long as the orginal.
   Just some food for thought from Indian land Oklahoma.

bullet maker

[Rick Teal]

John C:

You've received some good advice here.  

I stand to be corrected, but I think talon may have hit the wrong key when he advised you that .360 lead cores were better than .310.  The ,360's wouldn't even fit into your die.  He probably meant to type .350.  I believe this would be a good size for making lead bullets, but your .310's should be just about right for your half jacket bullets.  

I'd guess your jacket thickness will be in the .015 to .018 range so the "rule of thumb" Dave Corbin uses (twice the jacket thickness plus .010) gives you .317 to .309 for a core.

[talon]

Rick is absolutely correct of course: in my rambling, I slipped gears to the .44 die set you had ordered.