Author Topic: Let's hear it liberals... (Read 2585 times)

ironglow · « **on:** March 22, 2005, 01:16:38 AM »

Clinton appointed judge Whittemore affirms starvation option...
Now it is "all over but the suffering".

Even if the 11th circuit court approves re-installation of the feeding tube, by now the dammage is probably so great that Terri would not be able to recover.

At least half the members of the House and Senate can sleep with a clear conscience tonight...they gave it their best shot...

If she were not "vegetative"before, she would be from now on....

So...let's hear the cheering liberals...she is suffering and dying at this moment!!

Clearly; you WIN..for now...

However; down the road comes more elections here...and then.. we ALL have to face the "Great and Real Judge"....in the future...

Qtip · « **Reply #1 on:** March 22, 2005, 03:07:12 AM »

ironglow,

That was an excellent post. Your signature at the bottom of your post explains why libs are what they are. They don't have the truth. Our "rights" in this land are held very dearly by all. So much so that the real "enemy" has cloaked his culture of death within it and far too many do not see it.

Qtip
Soli Deo Gloria!
To God Alone Be The Glory!

Nightrain52 · « **Reply #2 on:** March 22, 2005, 04:53:29 AM »

It's a sad day when a prisoner being put to death dies within minutes and another human being clings to life while being starved to death. The doctor(s) that removed the feeding tube are no better than Dr. Jack Kavorkian. Once again a whole new can of worms has been opened. I guess I might be next since I am confined to a wheel chair and no longer a productive member of society. Another sad day in America. Even tho Terri may feel no pain and is unable to function as a normal person it should be Gods decision when she goes, not some so called judge. :cry:

fe352v8 · « **Reply #3 on:** March 22, 2005, 08:10:29 AM »

I fail to see how anybody won anything. She left no written instructions. Life is for those living, she is no burden to her husband. He should relent to her parents it would give them comfort. The only winners here are the lawyers.

life is no joke but funny things happen

jon

jh45gun · « **Reply #4 on:** March 22, 2005, 08:46:33 AM »

We did not want a feeding tube for my mother nor did she. At least she was aware until the end and was able to make her wishes known. I feel sorry for the parents and for Terri as who knows what she can feel or not feel. Just because they said she is brain dead does not mean that her body cannot feel pain and it may register somewhere. I do not know that for sure but does anyone? I kinda doubt it. I feel sorry for the family who have to suffer through this ordeal. Jim

Dali Llama · « **Reply #5 on:** March 22, 2005, 12:47:34 PM »

Quote from: fe352v8

The only winners here are the lawyers.

That be true indeed, comment Dali Llama.

fe352v8 · « **Reply #6 on:** March 22, 2005, 08:21:33 PM »

For those keeping score of which party represents faith and value thought you might find the starting line up for the US Court of Appeals 11th Circuit interesting. Remember you cannot tell the players with out a scorecard

J.L. Edmondson (chief judge) appointed, 05/07/1986, by Regan
Gerald Bard Tioflat, appointed, 11/21/1975, by Ford
R. Lanier Anderson appointed, 11/01/1981, by Regan
Stanley F. Birch, Jr., appointed, 06/12/1990, by Bush Sr.
Joel F. Dubina, appointed, 10/05/1990, by Bush Sr.
Susan H. Black, appointed, 08/12/1992, by Bush Sr.
Ed Carnes, appointed, 09/10/1992, by Bush Sr.
Rosemary Barket, appointed, 04/21/1994, by Clinton
Frank M. Hull, appointed, 10/03/1997, by Clinton
Stanley Marcus, appointed, 11/12/1997, by Clinton
Charles R. Wilson, appointed, 07/30/1999, by Clinton
William H. Pryor Jr., appointed, 02/20/2004 (recess appointment), Bush Jr.

Good luck and root for your favorite party.

Life is no joke but funny things happen

jon

NimrodRx · « **Reply #7 on:** March 22, 2005, 09:07:32 PM »

I can't believe I'm responding to a political/religious post.... :shock:

Promised myself I wouldn't do that.

I'm certainly not a liberal. Fact is, I won't assign any label to myself. I like to think that I'm a pretty free thinker and don't stick to any party lines. That being said, seems like a counter point needs offered here.

"Even if the 11th circuit court approves re-installation of the feeding tube, by now the damage is probably so great that Terri would not be able to recover.

Clearly; you WIN..for now... "

Look, I, as a clinical Doctor of Pharmacy in the long term care setting, have been involved in the treatment of such patients for nearly a decade. It's real easy to sit back and judge - to make decisions based on our own values. I will no longer do that.

IMHO, those who choose to sustain "life" through the miracles of modern medicine do so for their own needs - not the needs of the patient. Many of us are just unable to come to terms with the inevitable.

Until you have spent countless hours at the bed side of dying patients and loved ones....

To support the parents you have to be willing to endure what Terri has endured. You have to say to yourself, your spouse, and loved ones, "if I'm ever in that condition, use all means afforded by modern medicine to sustain my body. I too would want to exist in that state." Would you? Really? If so, I hope you've made that clear to your spouse/family.

Is it God's will or is it the will of modern medicine and a healthcare system run a muck???

I hold my life and the life of all those I treat as dearly sacred - a gift from the all mighty to be cherished and preserved. I give my best efforts every day to sustain life. But I will in no way, shape, or form, be so bold as to think that I have the right to prevent my creator from calling one of his own home - just because I'm not ready to say goodbye or because we clinicians have developed a way to sustain a body that has given it's soul.

Do you really think that removing a feeding tube is what has caused irrecoverable damage?

"you win" It's about the patient, not some political/religious garbage. Nobody "wins." Look past yourself and whatever agenda you have.

ironglow · « **Reply #8 on:** March 23, 2005, 03:20:12 AM »

Nimrod;

You may have to deal with that " religious garbage " down the line someday.

You don't have to believe in Hell to go there...LOL

Nightrain52 · « **Reply #9 on:** March 23, 2005, 10:27:49 AM »

In other words what your trying to say is that no one should be kept alive by outside intervention. HMMMMM-Then that should eliminate all Doctors, Nurses, Medications, Pharmacist and what have you. :shock: :eek:

Dali Llama · « **Reply #10 on:** March 23, 2005, 01:03:03 PM »

Quote from: ironglow

You may have to deal with that " religious garbage " down the line someday.

You don't have to believe in Hell to go there...

:eek: :shock: :eek:

Leverdude · « **Reply #11 on:** March 23, 2005, 03:42:47 PM »

I dunno guys but it sounds like he believes in God.
Sounds like he believes when God thinks its someones time, its someones time. I didn't get the impression he was saying medicine was bad or health care was wrong. It is definately right to help the ill but at some point we need to admit that we arent God.
I'm a bit at a loss. Do you guys think she should be hooked up to a machine for 40 more years so she can exist for a "normal" lifetime?

If God wants this woman to live then she wont die without the tube anyway. I dont think he needs our help in matters like this.

I know its not the same thing but when my grandfather was 92 he had a heart attack. He'd already been thru a few before & had suffered a stroke at 89.
This man who meant the world to me was a mere shadow of himself the last few years. Untill his stroke he would clean his own gutters, do all kinds of work for the neighbors & his church. Cut his 1/2 acre lawn & do whatever else he could before someone else could. He would walk 2 miles to town every day just as he had for at least the 35 years I knew about, just to show he still could.

Then his health failed. He couldn't get around & as far as he was concerened his life was done. He didn't want to die but he sure was ready.
He wasn't afraid. We were & I know that bothered him but what he told me was when its time its time. Theres something that just are & death is one. Doesn't matter if your 12 or 120 when God calls you gotta go.
He had that last heart attack & the resident Dr or whatever he was put in a pace maker. Grandpa lived because of that no doubt. I was happy for sure, he was my grandfather after all. Thing was he wasn't real thrilled.
He couldnt get around after that at all. They brought in a nurse as Grammy was 89 herself & couldnt do much for him.
When his dr found out about the pacemaker he himself was upset as he knew my grandfather the man, not just the patient, & that man was gone.
Now I'm sure that resident Dr thought he did a wonderful thing.
I'm also sure my grandfather woulda rather the ambulance made a wrong turn. He got 2 more years on earth, stuck in a bed with a stranger wipeing his butt.

I'm not sure whats right as there are sure times when all the fancy stuff we now have at our disposal are needed & save lives. I think tho that we need to be realistic about how we use them. IMO 15 years on life support is more than enuff to safely say we tried. I understand she breaths independently & her organs function but isn't the ability to eat a life function? Its not like shes normal other than being able to eat either.

You wanna do something, pray for her as thats the only hope she has.

Don Fischer · « **Reply #12 on:** March 23, 2005, 05:39:53 PM »

Good post Nimrod. This entire affair make's me wonder just how strong some people's faith really is. Perhaps misguided is a better word. If God want's her to live, she will in spite of meer human's. Maybe she is not kept alive by God now, only one way to find out! So who really is playing God here?

Nightrain52 · « **Reply #13 on:** March 23, 2005, 06:29:15 PM »

I guess what I am really trying to say is if a mistake was made it was years ago when this first happened. The news media from what I have seen is nothing more than a troll keeping things stirred up. Without the news media 99.9% of people would know nothing about this case. The part that upsets me the most is the lingering death instead of swift and quick. :?

NimrodRx · « **Reply #14 on:** March 23, 2005, 07:46:01 PM »

And once again, my reluctancy to post on anything religious or political is confirmed. I simply stated my opinion - how I feel - I never once said I was right or that someone else was wrong. Simply offering a different perspective. Something to think about. Too often we refuse to look at something from a different angle. We're so certain that we're right that we close our minds and ears to other points of view.

granted, "religious garbage" wasn't the best use of words. My apologies. I certainly didn't mean to infer that religion is garbage. Hell, (and, yes, I realize the irony of cursing when speaking of religion) if it wasn't for my spirituality, I wouldn't get through one of my days.

But from this, I get responses that I'm going to hell and I don't believe in sustaining life :? :? I assure you, I'm very comfortable with my relationship with my maker - thanks for the concern. My life's work has also been devoted to treating and caring for terminal patients. I will not justify my value for life to someone who hasn't followed me around for a day.

Look, I'm a simple man. I have my beliefs. You have yours. A little respect goes a long way. I know how I would want to be treated in this case, as do my loved ones. How would you want to be treated?

A good example are the small cell lung cancer patients that we see. We have at least one newly diagnosed patient every month. These patients are going to die - period. With treatment, we can usually buy them another 6-18 months. Without treatment, they typically expire within 6 months.

Patients typically take one of two responses. There are those that want to go out fighting. Use every regimen and agent possible. Then there are those who get comfortable with the idea of death, and choose not to go down the treatment road.

I respect both decisions and treat both patients. My beliefs never influence treatment. And I would certainly never pass judgement.

The point made about the media is VERY valid. Believe me, this happens EVERY SINGLE DAY in hospitals throughout the country. I guess ignorance truly is bliss....

This topic is far too deep for the limited dialouge afforded by the internet. I just ask that you keep an open mind.

I'm done. I should have known better than to ever comment on the subject. I wasn't trying to argue or flame - just offering another perspective.

Peace.

NimrodRx · « **Reply #15 on:** March 23, 2005, 07:55:04 PM »

My very last comments on this...

There come certain responsibilites with being a moderator of sites such as this. m-o-d-e-r-a-t-o-r! I expect more. You're not just another poster....

Leverdude - it is the same thing. Your story was touching.

Nightrain52 · « **Reply #16 on:** March 23, 2005, 08:28:23 PM »

NimrodRx-Please except my apoligy as sometimes my mouth over-rides my brain. Yes we need to keep an open mind about these things. When I was younger I never thought about this kind of thing very much because it didn't concern me that much. As a person gets older I value life much more than I used too. In your line of work I know it has to be hard dealing with the things you do day in and day out. Like you, I will say no more on this subject.

Cowpox · « **Reply #17 on:** March 23, 2005, 11:32:55 PM »

Let me start by making it plain to everyone that I am not trying to chastise anyone about their position on this matter. I am merely going to point out a few things that trouble me about the way her demise has been ordained by our courts.

The removal of the feeding tube has not only been ratified, but ordered by Judge Greer, on the grounds that it was her wishes not to be kept alive by artificial means. She has no living will, and the only testimony they have as to her wishes is her husbands statement that she told him this after watching some melodrama while she was in her twenties. While I was in my twenties, and newly married, I and my new bride went to a shopping mall, and when we parked, there was a very overweight gentleman struggling to extract himself from a compact car. I commented to my wife, that if I ever got that heavy, I wanted her to shoot me. Well, guess what ? 35 years later, I am getting close to that man's size, and my wife reminds me of that comment continually. But, I have softened my stance, and tell her to let me live a while longer because I plan to go on a diet.

furthermore, she laid in this vegetative state for seven years before he remembered she made the comment, and then only after there was a million dollar court settlement on the table, which required rescure from being wasted on a "vegetable". How much more transparent can it get ?

The point that bothers me most, is the fact that Judge Greer not only ordered the removal of the feeding tube, but that in essence, has ordered her death by forbidding her a chance to prove she can take sustenance on her own, by forbidding anything by mouth, or even wet rags on her forehead !! This on the grounds she might choke to death ! Her parents and other visitors are frisked like thieves at the door, to ensure they don't slip a Big Mack in with them. If some one got in with an Orrio cookie clamped in their butt crack, and she in fact, did choke to death on it, you can bet Idiot Greer would gleefully put them on trial for murder.

In capital crime cases, Judges order the death of human beings, almost on a daily basis. However, cold blooded murderers get to shuffle off the mortal coil via quick, relatively painless lethal injection. As long as he has ordered her death, why doesn't this sorry piece of human floatsome grant Terri the same "easy out" ? Just my opinion.

ironglow · « **Reply #18 on:** April 20, 2005, 04:27:17 PM »

Fe352;
I guess your post on the judges does go to prove that the Republicans don't use a "litmus test' when appointing judges nearly as much as the Democrats do...

Of course, appointing judges is an 'iffy" thing at best; when we want to find out if the Republican/Conservatives ot the Democrat/liberals are anti-Christian we can easily look at their record:

1) which party.... wants to outlaw prayer in school ?

2) " " ....doesn't want ten commandments displayed ?

3) " " ...wants to continue killing pre-born boys & girls ?

4) " " ...fights Christian schools and home schooling ?

5) " " ....try to keep Bibles out of schools and libraries ?

6) " " ...wants promote the sin of sodomy ?

7) " " ... tries to promote marriage between sodomites ?

" " ..has members more inclined to call Christians by derogatory names ?

9) " " ...passed a law curtailing freedom of speech from the pulpit ?

10) " " ...after passing such a law, has it's politicians campaigning and collecting donations in churches ?

11) " " ..never upbraids the ACLU for it's attempts to infringe on Christian's rights ?

12 " " ...is in favor of euthanizing handicapped people, even though they are not SURE of the victim's desires ?

13) " " ...is in favor of the dispicable practice of killing a baby boy or girl WHILE he/she is being born ?

14) " " ..seems to say that Saddam Hussein , with his rape/torture rooms etc., was better for Iraq than a freely elected govt.
( Christians deplore rape and torture)

Other general things that REAL Christians believe in..

A) Which party...is pushing for the amoral answers ?

B) " " ...seems to ALWAYS take the secular side in ANY debate ?

C) " " ..wants to curtail your freedom of speech with " political correctness" ?

And last, but not least:

D) Which party... wants to destroy our second amendment rights ?

That last point alone should keep any gun owner worth his salt from backing the party that is almost always on the wrong side of things !!

You will note; I didn't accuse either party of being on the wrong side...were you able to figure the answer for yourself ?

BTW..there is only one party/administration that has ever ordered the military to attack and burn religious community.....wonder who ?

SELAH....Ironglow

big medicine · « **Reply #19 on:** April 20, 2005, 06:49:26 PM »

I still can not believe that people feel that being a twisted contracted shell with no control over your bodies functions with only a brain stem that functions is ANY kind of life. Have you ever experienced or had any type of exposure other than a 15 second video clip with any of these people? Torture, my God you want to talk about torture, how about 15 years of that. Being used as a friggin guinea pig for every experimental procedure that some lab nerd came up with. having electrodes implanted the goo that was once your brain trying to get it to function. Having tubes shoved in and out, getting bed sores, aspirate pneumonia, urinary tract infections, laying in your own urine and stool waiting for some one to come clean you, give you a bath, but I guess none of that much matters since you are brain dead. I just love how quick people are to stand and pronounce how God feels on the subject, maby you shouldnt be so quick to judge. Maby, just maby God may judge those that have tortured one of his souls for 15 years. Have you ever thought of that?

I can not believe that people can think that being in that state is somehow better than being in Gods kingdom.

I deal with life and death every day. Dying is not always a bad thing, I guess if you really believe in God. I'm in no hurry, but I made my peace with God several years ago when I feared I wouldnt see the dawn come. I promised I would try to live my life to help others. And I try to do that. I help them live but I also comfort them in the time of their dying. Keeping a person alive in a miserable state because of your own guilt when there is no hope for any type of recovery should be a crime. It takes more faith to let go, than it does to hang on.

Here is another issue, how ever cold, it is the facts. Who pays for all this? How many other people died that could have been helped because of the resources tied up in a hopeless cause. How many people died of heart failure or cancer or what ever else because the funds that could have helped them were being tied up there? The truth....we will never know. That care isnt free and it isnt cheap. And you can bet that other people suffered worse deaths waiting for help. And the news media wasnt there to champion their cause. People are taken off life support every day for any number of reasons, usually when it is clear there is no hope for recovery and the loved ones believe it is better to be with God than shoved in a nursing home with tubes in every orifice, until they finally wither and die a slow drawn out death. Can anybody really truthfully say that is what they would want? I have NEVER had a loved one tell that is what their father, mother, grandparent ect would want. Do onto others as you would have done onto you. I would hope that if it were me, my family would have pulled the plug years ago and ended my suffering.

ironglow · « **Reply #20 on:** April 21, 2005, 01:33:20 AM »

Big Medicine;
Are we to then assume that you are in favor of seeking out and liquidating ALL such incapacitated people, ...or just the ones that some activist judge deems as worthless ?

big medicine · « **Reply #21 on:** April 21, 2005, 02:18:52 AM »

Did I state that anywhere? Like it or not it is the choice of the husband to make. And there comes a time when enough is enough there was nothing left to try. I dont believe in torture, and that is what was done to that woman for 15 years. Are we to assume that you feel we should go shoving tubes in every person in the hospital and nursing home to keep them alive at any and all cost? Maby you should give up your weekends for 6 months or so and go help some of these people and get some first hand experience. See what is done to them on a daily basis, actually get some hands on experience shoving tubes in and out of them. Torture them your self for a while. Then see if you still feel the same. It is easy to pass judgement on others until you get some real experience your self. Just what do you think happens to a person with alzheimers disease? They have more of a functioning brain than Teri did. Their dementia usually gets so bad that they stop eating dispite our best efforts to keep them functioning. They wont eat and they wont drink. The family has a choice to let things go our start shoving tubes. The family NOT me makes the choice. I thank God that most of our patients have family that have a real view on life and choose to keep them comfortable until the end comes. Not prolong their misery. Would you want to be kept alive live that?

Don Fischer · « **Reply #22 on:** April 21, 2005, 02:24:56 AM »

A really great post by Big Medicine followed by a personnel attack. Makes me wonder who really believes in what they preach! Hey Big Medicine, no explaination will do for this guy.

williek · « **Reply #23 on:** April 21, 2005, 03:42:15 AM »

After reading all the posts I can only assume from your deep concern in this matter that you have all taken the time to write your own personel will, have it notorized, and have it in a safe place that people close to you will know where it is and your instructions will be followed following any very serious problem you may have.
Had this been done in this case the media would have had nothing to report.
Whatever your decision is in that will it will not satisfy some people close to you. That is the reason you need to write it.
Writing it is difficult, for noone likes to face the reality of their own death, but if you love your loved ones write it NOW! It is easy to put off until tomorrow, but tomorrow never comes, we only deal with today.
There was no opinion expressed in this post other than than than the belief of everyone's need to write the living will and save their family the horror of having to make such a decision.

fe352v8 · « **Reply #24 on:** April 21, 2005, 10:01:39 AM »

Ironglow,

I do not think there should be a litmus test for judges, once the person is nominated, the senate should vote, no filibusters no crap, just yea or nay. A look at history shows that, judges regardless of their personal views seem to, by in large, base their decisions on the Constitution we have, and the previous decisions of the court. Very few appointees to the Supreme Court have met the expectations of the President appointing them. Once you are on the court you are beholding to no one.

Since Regans election, the opposition to abortion has been a plank in one of the two major political parties platform. It seems curious that this party, with its majority in both houses of congress, has made no effort to introduce a constitutional amendment to end abortion. Could it be that the party leaders find it advantages to maintain the appearance of being opposed to the practice, while not taking any meaningful steps to end it, because it insures the support of a committed base that is opposed to abortion, that could be lost if it was no longer an issue of debate.

Homosexual marriage begs the same question. In state after state it has been a slam-dunk, NO to homosexual marriage. There have been speeches, but no legislation. Does this party avoid introducing legislation, only to ferment the debate, and thus maintain the support, of those opposed to homosexuality.

Perhaps the party leaders fear that if the issues of abortion and homosexual marriage, could no longer be flash points, due the enactment of constitutional amendments, that the groups that have supported the party because of its stance, on these issues, might focus on things like its tax plan, which gave 90% of the cuts to less than 5% of the people. Or maybe they would focus on the partys fiscal policies.

As far as I am aware the United Sates is a secular entity, and its citizens are free to believe or not believe in a religion. My local library has copies of four different versions of the Bible plus the Koran, Buddhist and Hindu scriptures. What governmental agency has infringed on your religious rights, and how? Was it not the ACLU that argued for the rights of the neo-Nazis, members of the Christian Identity movement, and white supremacist groups to march? The prohibition of prayer in school has been held to apply only to prayer initiated by the administrators, an individual student may pray if they wish. I have not seen any legislation introduced that would lower my property taxes by forcing the sanctuary portion of a church to pay property taxes, and I have seen no suggestion that you should not be able to deduct contributions made to the church. The debate over the Commandments seems silly, like it or not it is a part of the basis of our laws. From a purely secular point of view it could be argued it was derived from Hammurbis code, and is merely a cultural icon, not a religious symbol. Those choosing to home school grew fastest under another partys administration. Has it ever occurred to anyone that Waco might have been avoid if the Davidians had not barricade themselves in their compound in response to a courts order, or that their leader, with his aspirations of Messiah-hood, seemed intent on martyrdom. Would a person be justified in robbing a bank if they claimed to be emulating Jesus, and were driving the moneychangers from our temples of commerce?

What has the party done to expand gun rights; aside from let the assault weapons ban expire?

What partys fiscal policies have resulted in cuts in funding for services to the handicapped?

What party supports a law allowing them to know what books one borrows from the library?

What party attempts to suspend the writ of habeas corpus, attempts to circumvent the fourth amendment, and thinks torture can be appropriate?

It just seems odd that when you have a majority in both houses of congress, and your party leader claims a mandate and boasts of his political capitol, that legislation that would fulfill his partys platform are not forth coming.

Regardless of party, it seems likely that partys policies are more about power, control, and gain; than about, morality and service to the populace, unless you think of service in the context of animal husbandry. It would refreshing if one party could at least be on the side truthfulness

Life is no joke (but ethical government is an oxymoron) but funny things happen

jon

ironglow · « **Reply #25 on:** April 21, 2005, 08:06:24 PM »

Big medicine;
You seem to assume that I have no experience with such situations...
not quite correct..

FE;
One party complains about the moral issues and does some things to help..the other party works ACTIVELY to put our nation in the sewer..

If by your statements, you're implying that the Democrats are no more threat to our gun rights that the Republicans...I'll leave that statement to the forum members to decide whether that is accurate..

fe352v8 · « **Reply #26 on:** April 21, 2005, 11:32:17 PM »

I could not agree more, the fiscal policies of the party in power are leading us into the sewer. See reasonable people engaged in civil discussion can usually agree on something. Just kidding, I know that not what you meant.

life is no joke but funny things happen

jon

ironglow · « **Reply #27 on:** April 22, 2005, 03:52:04 AM »

Don Fischer;

Where is the personal attack on BM ? If you are referring to my reply, that was NO personal attack...I would say the same to anyone that seems to favor a situation where:

1) A woman cannot speak for herself and has been denied any therapy to allow her the POSSIBILITY of speaking for herself.

2) Her "husband", who is presently shacked up and has another family started...suddenly remembers, after 7 years that she once made an obtuse remark about "not wanting to live like that"....decides she should be starved..

3) The woman's family claims that she may have been put in such a state by spousal abuse.

4) A judge, who has addressed and cavorted with "hemlock societies" (euthanists) for years, like Nero..turns "thumbs down".
The "hospice" in to which her "hubby' has transferred her also is laden with euthanists...

5) Her family and several nurses, plus a neurologist from the Mayo clinic says she CAN be helped.

6) After the death sentence is accomplished, the "husband" is not interested in clearing the abuse charges by allowing one of the top two forensic pathologists in the US to observe the autopsy.

7) The woman is then "cremated"...against her religious preferences..

The hubby was offered up to 10 million dollars to give her back to her parents..

I am simply saying that if ANYONE can, in clear conscience, ignore all these "red flags" and still back the starvation/dehydration option...they would almost have to opt for the liquidation of other helpless folk that leave NO WRITTEN LIVING WILL as Terri did...
No personal attack...just an objective observation.and query..

big medicine · « **Reply #28 on:** April 22, 2005, 08:33:05 AM »

Ironglow,
It is not my goal to start a war I have always respected your thoughts as far back as the old MT, so I want you to know that. What I have found in my years of dealing with these types of patients is that people with the strongest opions for prolonging the inevitable are usually detached from the situation. It is usually some son or daughter that is 500 miles away and has not seen mom or dad for ten years, that fights with the other siblings to prolong treatment. The ones that are here that deal with it every day see the pain and agony first hand and wish not to continue it.

In these cases we are talking about a human life. Not just the act of breathing. Putting a person through daily agony just because someone has a pipe dream that their daughter or parent will "just wake up and be all better" is insane. Most people that would make another live like that wouldnt choose the same for them selves. I feel this whole thing was a family matter and the courts, media and public had no business being involved. The parents made their daugher into some freakshow act for the media circus to try and draw public sympathy and they should be ashamed of them selves. Nobody "won" anything. Teri lost 15 years ago when she became a pawn in a family feud.

One of the things that should be noted is that the MDs that said she could be helped had never actually seen her. They based this off of the video that they were showed, not all the video just some of the clips. And I'm sorry some RN or LPN is totally out of line when they make comments that she can be helped. I deal with this BS everyday. All to often the nurses only have one very small piece of the puzzle and yet feel they have all the answers. Just one case in point. A few years ago I had an older gal that lived alone and had a syncopal episode. And was brought into the hospital. I could not find any reason for it, and she checked out ok. I admitted her to the hospital for observation and placed a cardiac monitor on her to see if she was having some arrhythmia that caused the episode. I took flack from all the nurses for admitting this gal. I was told that there was nothing wrong with her and she could go home, there was no reason to put her in the hospital ect ect. The nurses were mad as hell for me putting this woman in. They saw no reason for it. Why because she was fine. Well about six hours later she had another episode. She went into asystole which means her heart stopped beating all together and she passed out just like she had done at home. She was sent up to another hospital got a pace maker and is doing fine today. So put as much stock in some of the nurses statements as you like. And I don not mean this as a slam to nurses, but many times they give opions with only part of the picture. It is easy to call the shots when you dont have the liability. If their a$$ was the one with the liability they wouldnt be so quick to rush to a diagnosis. I could go on and on about that subject. But I suppose I could have just liquidated her and been done with it, which is what would have happened if I had listened to the nurses.

You dont mention the 70+MDs that have examined Teri and all came to the same conclusion.

So what kind of experience do you have in these cases? Bystander or participant?

Ironglow wrote:
I am simply saying that if ANYONE can, in clear conscience, ignore all these "red flags" and still back the starvation/dehydration option...they would almost have to opt for the liquidation of other helpless folk that leave NO WRITTEN LIVING WILL as Terri did...
No personal attack...just an objective observation.and query..

How you came to that conclusion I will never know. How you can profess to know what I feel or think about anyone with no written will or a written will is beyond me. You have no clue.

You still have not answered my question. Would you choose to live that way?

Bush Master · « **Reply #29 on:** April 22, 2005, 08:35:14 AM »

I have noticed that nobody has addressed the questions posed by ironglow. Please, somebody who was in favor of starving this woman to death, something you would go to jail for if you did it to your dog, answer these points.

1) Michael witheld any and all rehabilitation therapy.

2) Michael refused to let her parents take over her care and the costs associated with it.

3) Michael jumped right into bed with another woman and fathered children with her. (An obvious conflict of interest).

4) If Michael was so concerned about following his poor wife's wishes, why did he have her cremated and buried on his family's plot in PA? Clearly, he was very selective on which of her wishes he would respect.

Yes, we do not have all of the facts and we cannot make an informed decision, but something is wrong here, it does not pass the smell test.