Author Topic: The Best Military Rifle of all time??? (Read 2209 times)

1911crazy · « **on:** March 23, 2005, 11:14:51 AM »

What do you think is the best military rifle of all time??

If this was just WW2 than it would be the M1 Garand for sure. But if we looking for all time it has to be the AK47 its not only one of the most used and popular rifles its the most dependable, reliable and the most quality weapon ever made. The AK47 functions in any kind of enviroment flawlessly and its unmatched even to today with any other rifle. If you don't have one you should try one and you will see what i mean. My second choice would be an SKS while its short life has been over shadowed by the AK47 the SKS is just as reliable and dependable as the AK47 is but it doesn't have the large capacity magazines("firepower") that the AK47 has, but i think the stripper clips is faster on reloading but again its only 10rds. There is a lot of countries who have adopted the AK47 too because of its legacy and reputation. I think the AK47's designed rifle will be around on many battle fields of the future too. BigBill

I think the russians are way ahead of us when it comes to small arms designs, they seem to have the knack for building in quality, reliability and depedability into their weapons!!!!!

New Hampshire · « **Reply #1 on:** March 23, 2005, 12:06:07 PM »

Agreed about WWII, M1 all the way.

But as for all time, like in the M14 post it would have to be the tried and true M14/M1a rifles. Dependable, detachable magazines (which corrected the Garands one main shortcoming,) and accurate from 0-700 yards with open sites (well, as long as IM not shooting :grin: ) and out to 1000 when scoped. Combined with a GI web sling or 1917 you are a deadly piece of war equipment. The AK sure has the all time in dependability, yes. But unfortunately the more crude sights, less powerful cartridge, less sight radius and loose tolerances that give it the stupendous reliability cut heavily into how effective it is at longer ranges. If we were to pertain strictly to bolt guns it would be a REAL hard choice between the Mauser 98s or Enfields.
Brian M.

kevin.303 · « **Reply #2 on:** March 23, 2005, 12:19:06 PM »

well if we're talking accuracy, without a doubt it's the Ross rifle. but it was failure as a standard issue rifle. like many others my great grandfather threw his away in combat and pulled a Lee-Enfield off dead English troops. if we're going for length of service, then the Lee action wins. it begin its service life in 1888 as the Lee-Metford and was declared obsolete in 1992 when the L42 was officially retired. show me one other arm that has a service life of 104 years. the .303 has been a long lifer as well, the Vickers machine gun was still in use with the Canadian army until 1967, and the Aussies where still using No.1 Mk 3's as sniper rifles into the '70's. as for the best of WW2, i'd say it's a draw between the M1 Garand and the No.4. both served side by side and proved reliable to their users and deadly to the enemy.

jh45gun · « **Reply #3 on:** March 23, 2005, 01:38:58 PM »

Kevin, Never shot a Ross and I can see why you are fond of them being from Canada I have heard the ones that they did not ream the chambers out are nice guns. I have to say though that in good shape a 6.5 Swedish Mauser or the Swiss K31 and some FInn Mosing Nagants will shoot with the best of them no matter what the make or be it military or sporter.

As far as the origional question goes I would have to say M1 also though I have never shot one Millions of GI's can't be wrong. Ak's are ok but I like the idea of reaching out and touching some one if need be the 762x39 is sorely lacking in that dept. That is why I do not own a SKS or a AK anymore I prefer the longer reaching bolt milsurps I have bought. IF I want a gun in the range of the 762x39 my Lever action 94 will do nicely.

coktnlokt · « **Reply #4 on:** March 23, 2005, 06:05:19 PM »

Big Billl
I tend to agree with you . The ak47 is undoubtedly the widest used battle gun. If you like the SKS, try to get a "D" model ...it takes the ak47 mags.

earschplitinloudenboomer · « **Reply #5 on:** March 23, 2005, 07:17:05 PM »

Don't remember the name of the gun but your question answers itself, the best rifle is the first to have rifling in the barrel, every other "rifle" is a variation of that gun.

patm41 · « **Reply #6 on:** March 24, 2005, 01:27:53 AM »

Ill vote for the AK 47 and its variants !! 100% reliable ,, after all the produced 50 million of them..

tomaldridge · « **Reply #7 on:** March 24, 2005, 03:16:09 AM »

I'd like to nominate the Remingtom Rolling Block for an honorable mention

kevin.303 · « **Reply #8 on:** March 24, 2005, 03:30:58 AM »

i think the Moain Nagant also bears mentioning.

i've thought about buying an SKS-D, theyare cheap at only $200 for a brand new one. but the 7.62x39 doesn't really appeal to me. not very accurate and doesn't go to far.

1911crazy · « **Reply #9 on:** March 24, 2005, 05:39:45 AM »

Quote from: coktnlokt

Big Billl
I tend to agree with you . The ak47 is undoubtedly the widest used battle gun. If you like the SKS, try to get a "D" model ...it takes the ak47 mags.

I have one sks that takes AK mags in a thumbhole stock too its the sks sporter made by Norinco. Its an sks but it has a different feel when its fired for some reason maybe its the heavier thumbhole stock that makes it feel different. My paratrooper sks with chinese surplus ammo will shoot 1 1/2" to 2" groups at 100yds you can't ask for better than that. I like the 7,62x39 round its an affordable plinker and can be used up to deer sized game too. The new Wolf 150gr SP bullet in the 7,62x39 really ups the anti too. It just proves a gun doesn't have to be heavy to be accurate and its cheap too and made in China? If a bigger bore rifle is needed then it has to be the russian izhmash Ak47 designed Saiga in 308win. they have the reliabilty and dependability of an AK47 in the sporter market locked up. You just have to shot one and once it catches on here its going to be a force on the market that no one will compete with in the near future. With the new springfield armory M1a having quality problems and out of the box accuracy being one of them, and selling for $1,200 and the new saiga in 308win selling for $307 OTD which one are you going to pick? I'm sure if we put $2,000 into any rifle it will shoot just as good as the reworked M1a does. There just isn't many affordable 308 guns out there that can match the russian saiga. BigBill

I would sure like to see a shoot off, of bone stock orginal right out of the box rifles between the M1 Garand, M1a, Egyptian Hakim, Swede Ljungman, french 49, 49/56, and the FN49's in 8mm, 7mm and 30-06 and just for ha's ha's throw in the saiga 308 and the sks in 7.62x39 just to see who gets the bragging rights and who kicks who's butt too and i have a feeling the american made stuff will not be on the top of the list.

kombi1976 · « **Reply #10 on:** March 24, 2005, 11:25:28 PM »

I'm with Kevin303, much as I think the M14 and k98 are excellent rifles. The SMLE series of rifles are tough to kill, very fast cycling for a bolt action and will operate in literally the worst battle situations.
They also can be very accurate.
303 British is no glamour cartridge but if 7.62NATO had been loaded with a 174gn FMJ it's ballistics would've been little better as its real performance is so close to the Brit.
AKs and SKSs are fine but they just aren't in the running in my opinion when you look at the cartridge they use and their potential mechanical problems.
But then that's IMO.

rzwieg · « **Reply #11 on:** March 25, 2005, 12:03:16 AM »

kevin.303 How does the Ross shoot? After I read McBride's "A Rifleman Went To War" I got an interest in that piece. Twenty years ago I saw two excellent sporters in .280 cal. for... OHH!..$400 US roughly.At the time it was a barrel burner but ahead of it's time.Didn't have the cash being a college student. To those who may not know, the Canadian Ross equipped team took the Palma trophy at Camp Perry in 1912 and it took, I recall, ten years to best their score. (Correct me if wrong.)

kevin.303 · « **Reply #12 on:** March 25, 2005, 04:01:54 AM »

the Ross groups ORH as i say, or One Ragged Hole. i've seen it outshoot benched target rifles at 200 yards. i've seen bubba'd .303's gor for around $100 CDN, i might get one at a gunshow next month. the .280 Ross is like the 7mm Rem Mag, except 100 years ago. the Ross actions are proofed at 32 tonnes, while the SMLE is only 18.5. i got a interesting Ross story that 'll post tonight, but i got to go to work right now.

kevin.303 · « **Reply #13 on:** March 25, 2005, 04:05:14 AM »

the Ross groups ORH as i say, or One Ragged Hole. i've seen it outshoot benched target rifles at 200 yards. i've seen bubba'd .303 Rosss go for around $100 CDN, i might get one at a gunshow next month. the .280 Ross is like the 7mm Rem Mag, except 100 years ago. the Ross actions are proofed at 32 tonnes, while the SMLE is only 18.5. i got a interesting Ross story that 'll post tonight, but i got to go to work right now.

1911crazy · « **Reply #14 on:** March 25, 2005, 06:29:52 AM »

I've seen SMLE sporters at gun shows here selling for as little as $75 and it was neatly done too, the stock was cut back perfect. I'm sorry i didn't pick it up now. But i watch for more cheap sporters now. My only .303 Britt rifle has the smoothest and fastest bolt action out of all my military bolt action rifles. BigBill

kombi1976 · « **Reply #15 on:** March 25, 2005, 06:30:24 PM »

Talking of SMLE sporters, have a look at this BSA SMLE chambered for 303-25(Brit necked down to .257). Amazing stock carving work.

http://www.cobbsamurai.com/images/firearms/14%20Birmingham%20303/index.htm

It was actually listed for AUD$599. Wouldn't pay that but it looks beautiful.

1911crazy · « **Reply #16 on:** March 26, 2005, 01:42:47 AM »

Awesome carving and if i seen that at a gun show here and i had the extra cash it would come home with me. I have seen guns carved in the past and now i think we won't be seeing too many more of these since its a dying art so i think there collectable too. The stock looks the same way as i seen one sporter done without the carving for $75. BigBill

Doc.2/47 · « **Reply #17 on:** March 27, 2005, 11:16:24 AM »

Rifles:M14
---------------------
As far as assualt rifles go,I consider the M16A2 and later variations to be much superior to any of the AK's,or SKSs.Better sights,trigger,and flatter shooting rnd. give the M16 much greater practical aimed fire range.Lighter wt. of both rifle and ammo results in more ammo on hand.Lighter recoil results in more rounds in a smaller area when fireing bursts and makes it easier to train troops to actually aim.Lighter wt.,better safty/selector switch,and easier to change mags. make quicker on target and easier to sustain fire.About the only thing that I can see that the AK has going for it is that they were cheap to make and therefore there are an awful lot of em around.

Robert357 · « **Reply #18 on:** March 27, 2005, 12:18:39 PM »

Quote from: kevin.303

...show me one other arm that has a service life of 104 years.

How about the Russian MN action that started about the same time but in 7.62x54 Rimmed rather than you Lee in .303?

kjeff50cal · « **Reply #19 on:** March 27, 2005, 12:31:11 PM »

BigBill, that's easy..... the one that allows you and yours live to a ripe old age!!!

kjeff50cal

Robert357 · « **Reply #20 on:** March 27, 2005, 12:34:00 PM »

"Best" is probably in the eye of the beholder.

If were were just talking "long guns" then the British Army Brown Bess musket, as it probably was responsible for concuring most of the known world at the time.

I would concur that other "rifles" would need to include the Mauser Action, the Lee Action, the MN action.

The US Springfield and the Japanese Arisaka are also impressive bolt action rifles.

For semiautomatics the M1 Garrand, the M-14, M-16, SKS, AK-47, and M1 Carbine were all made in substantial numbers.

A friend recently rescued two Arkisaka rifles from his father's closet. I helped him clean up the Model 38 in 6.5mm. It is amazing how firm nearly 60 year old cosmoline can get. After soaking the bolt for two days in Ed's Red; plugging the barrel and letting it soak for two days in Ed's Red; I got around to taking things apart and cleaning several decades of neglect.

Wow, did it ever clean up nicely! I took the bolt all apart and was impressed by how much cosmoline was still hidden in it and by the simplicity of design.

The Arisaka model 38's were nice rifles, although I really like my MN1891/30.

kevin.303 · « **Reply #21 on:** March 27, 2005, 01:16:22 PM »

Quote from: Robert357

Quote from: kevin.303
...show me one other arm that has a service life of 104 years.

How about the Russian MN action that started about the same time but in 7.62x54 Rimmed rather than you Lee in .303?

i do believe the MN waas phased out all use by the mid 1970's. the 7.62x54R is still in use as a maichine gun and sniper cartridge however.

txpete · « **Reply #22 on:** March 27, 2005, 04:35:34 PM »

back up now,I can tell you for a fact the cubans had M44's in use in 1989
the 7.62X54R (53R finn) smokes a 303 in velocity,and energy and has been in production since 1891.

http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinAmmoM91F.htm

my vote goes for a finn M39

my dad retired from the canadian army and a wwII vet and never like the ross period.

S.S. · « **Reply #23 on:** March 28, 2005, 03:51:26 AM »

The Brown Bess or the SMLE probably had the greatest impact
on the world! The AK47 would probably be the most prolific
I would have to say that the P14 Enfield would be the most accurate.
and the M1 Garand the most reliable.
I could not narrow it down to a single rifle.

1911crazy · « **Reply #24 on:** March 28, 2005, 01:26:50 PM »

Quote from: S.Sumner

The Brown Bess or the SMLE probably had the greatest impact
on the world! The AK47 would probably be the most prolific
I would have to say that the P14 Enfield would be the most accurate.
and the M1 Garand the most reliable.
I could not narrow it down to a single rifle.

S.Sumner how come your being a former user of that fantastic M16 you don't rank it somewhere with the others? Its funny i see so many others rank it number one? I don't have to bad mouth it for its true reputation and track record speaks for itself as seen on the history channel when they compared the M16 to the AK47. I'm sure some can't handle the truth. (many failures) BigBill

kombi1976 · « **Reply #25 on:** March 28, 2005, 02:17:24 PM »

Quote from: BigBill

I don't have to bad mouth it for its true reputation and track record speaks for itself as seen on the history channel when they compared the M16 to the AK47. I'm sure some can't handle the truth. (many failures) BigBill

I think the point you''ve made may well be pertinent to the M16 and AK but it isn't really to whether or not it is the greatest battle rifle full stop. Afterall, it is subjective and no one has really defined the criteria.

missouri dave · « **Reply #26 on:** March 29, 2005, 04:41:43 PM »

Kalachnikov!!!!! Simple and reliable, kinda like a club but then I like clubs too!

Doc.2/47 · « **Reply #27 on:** March 30, 2005, 09:39:56 AM »

I don't think that anyone would argue that the early issue M16s weren't dangerously unreliable.About the only good thing that can be said about them is that their flash supressors worked really well for cutting the wires off C-ration cases.

The same cannot be said with any fairness of the A2 version of the weapon.I did my tour of duty in Vietnam '69-'70 with a side trip to Cambodia in May '70.I saw absolutely no reason to believe that the AK was any more reliable in the hands of the VC and NVA that used them than the M16A2 was in the hands of US troops.It might also be noted that I saw nobody at all from the History Channel.

All general issue weapons are a compromise to one extent or another because it is imposible to predict the exact conditions under which they will be used.A weapon that is near perfect in one situation may be woefully inadequit in another.The AK is a good choice for un-or poorly-trained troops fighting in closequarters situations(spray&pray).Under those conditions the AK might be considered slightly suprior to the M16A2.
There are some people that would consider a good SMG or shotgun to be better than either in that type of situation.In all other situations I consider the M16A2 by far the better weapon.My opinion is formed from direct experience and observation;not rumor.

Track record?Check your history.By far the vast majority of the time when US troops armed with M16s have clashed with bad guys armed with
AKs there have been a LOT more bodies lying beside dropped AKs than M16s.Think you might prefer an AK?Go to any battlefield.You'll find plenty of them lying on the ground.

I stand by my earlier post.

1911crazy · « **Reply #28 on:** March 30, 2005, 12:29:28 PM »

I'm sorry to say the M16 still has a bad track record from nam all the way to Iraq. I would like to know how many of our guys and gals died because of the weapon malfunctions(fail to function) of the notorious M16. It sure has to hold that record. If I was in Iraq I would carry two weapons the AK47 which i could depend on and the M16 as most of our guys we see on the news do have an AK47 strapped on their backs too as backup. Some of the people are starting to see thru the BS and are realizing the US needs a new weapon and i hope they scrap the M16 all together and design a better, reliable and dependable weapon for our people in the armed forces. The AK47 has a flawless track record it takes a licking and keeps on ticking!!!! We should buy russian guns are supply our armed forces. BigBill

kevin.303 · « **Reply #29 on:** March 30, 2005, 05:36:00 PM »

or put the Garand back into production