Author Topic: Colt Navy: How fast can you reload?? (Read 1711 times)

Big Paulie · « **on:** March 23, 2005, 12:50:27 PM »

Dear Guys,

Suppose that you have a good repro Colt 51 Navy, and you are not interested in being historically correct in the way that you reload it. In other words, you are free to set it up on a wooden reloading stand, use powder pellets, black powder substitutes, quick capping gizmos, plastic patches, wax cardboard patches, etc. etc. Anything you want. How fast can your reload a Navy?

Here is why I ask. About 25 years ago, my brother bought a Navy repro, and we went out to the range to shoot it. It was the most tedious, and absolutely the biggest mess, I ever saw in my life. I think he was hand measuring each charge, putting each ball in a patch, covering each loaded cylindar with about a half an inch of grease, and hand capping each cylinder. It seemed like it took 10 minutes to load it, 15 seconds to shoot all six cylinders, 10 minutes to wipe all of the grease and crud and powder off of the gun, and then another 10 minutes to reload it. After about an hour, our faces and arms we were totally covered with grease, black powder crud, oil, and gunk. We couldn't wait to quit! After that, I think he hung it over the mantle and never shot it again.

I know that lots of things have changed in the black powder world in the last 25 years. So, using all of the modern gizmos, how fast can you reload now?

Thanks for any info.

Big Paulie

quigleysharps4570 · « **Reply #1 on:** March 23, 2005, 01:02:32 PM »

Never have timed myself. It's slow no matter what route you take though. Myself, I use a 25gr. spout on my flask. Then a wonder wad between powder and ball. Don't have to grease the top with the wad. Some do both, but I've never had a cross-fire using the wad by itself. Once all cylinders are loaded I prime it. Like I said...it's slow. That's why them boys carried several of them. :-)

Wynn · « **Reply #2 on:** March 23, 2005, 01:11:29 PM »

Quote from: Big Paulie

Dear Guys,

Here is why I ask. About 25 years ago, my brother bought a Navy repro, and we went out to the range to shoot it. It was the most tedious, and absolutely the biggest mess, I ever saw in my life. I think he was hand measuring each charge, putting each ball in a patch, covering each loaded cylindar with about a half an inch of grease, and hand capping each cylinder. It seemed like it took 10 minutes to load it, 15 seconds to shoot all six cylinders, 10 minutes to wipe all of the grease and crud and powder off of the gun, and then another 10 minutes to reload it. After about an hour, our faces and arms we were totally covered with grease, black powder crud, oil, and gunk.

Big Paulie

I woudn't think I'd of had any fun if it wasn't like that!

ribbonstone · « **Reply #3 on:** March 23, 2005, 02:25:02 PM »

PArt of it is just personal philosophy, but if you are in a hurry, black powder is seldom the right choice. Can speed the loading process a bit by using paper cartridges or using pre-measured powder charges. But if you measure the fun of a day by how many rounds you've fired, probably better off to avoid cap-and-ball revolvers.

Can make them a little less messy...if youa re getting splattered with lube, seems like you're using a bit too much. Can switch to over powder felt wads and cut doen on the amount of lube applied.

No mater how careful you are you will get messy. At the end of the day, anyone that has shot much black powder won't have to ask what you've been up to.

Will52100 · « **Reply #4 on:** March 23, 2005, 08:34:32 PM »

I can load and shoot fast enough that with the lubed felt wads I use the gun heats up and contaminates the powder with lube from the wads and makes weak shots after 3 or 4 cylinder fulls.

I normaly use a Colt type powder flask with a 21 grain spout to load the cylinders three at a time on the navies, place a ball on top of each loaded chamber to keep from jaring powder out from raming balls. I load with gun in hand. Then a finger wipe of Crisco on top of the balls, not much, no where near filling the chambers, just enough that when fired they keep the fouling soft. I have good round chambers and have fired without lube and no chainfires, the cylinder starts draging though so a little smear of lube helps keep things running. Wipe grease off finger with a rag and cap with a snail capper, and I use the hammer to push the caps on the nipples snug. I haven't had a discharge from using the hammer as a cap seater, but I always keep the gun downrange and am VERY carful to gently set it down. I also blow down each chamber to prevent a cinder from turning the flask into a hand grenade.

To realy speed things up, make paper cartriges out of cigeret paper and use the edge of the loading leaver latch to tear the end of the cartrige to expose black powder and then work it into the chamber, ram and repeat, wipe a smear of lube on the cylinder mouth and then use the snail capper to cap the nipples. Not that much slower than a cartrige six gun, just be sure to blow on the chamber mouths to kill any sparks or hot paper residue. The paper will leave a little ash, but I haven't found it to be a problem. That said I don't like paper cartriges, they take to long for me to make and load and are rather delicate, but they do load FAST!

The capper works best for me with Treso nipples and #11 Reminton caps, the nippls on the guns out of the box tend to shake caps loose and they fall off if not hand pinched on.

Part of it is getting the gun set right, part is staying away from petrolium lubes, and a big part is a rythem and practice. I also find that breaking the gun down and giving it a good cleaning and coating it with bore butter and baking for an hour or so at 300-350 deg.F. helps in the long run. I normaly clean once every two weeks unless I've been out in the rain. I work offshore 14&14 so if it wernt for that I'd probably go longer without cleaning.

quigleysharps4570 · « **Reply #5 on:** March 23, 2005, 11:43:15 PM »

Will mentioned cylinder dragging...I carry a little (empty scent bottle) pump bottle of glass cleaner with vinegar in my belt bag. When she starts dragging I wet a patch and give the face of the cylinder a quick wipe. Then I'm good to go again.

jgalar · « **Reply #6 on:** March 24, 2005, 01:56:09 AM »

I spend a good amount of time reloading cartridges, especially rifle rounds. I also cast the bullets. If one considers this into the equation there isn't a significant amount of difference in shooting muzzleloaders and cartridge guns. The main difference is the cartridges are reloaded at home.

Big Paulie · « **Reply #7 on:** March 24, 2005, 06:05:17 AM »

thanks for the info guys. I know that there is a safety issue in how fast you reload, and believe me, I would always take this into account.

Nobody mentioned using pre-formed powder pellets. I think the reason is that nobody makes them in .36 caliber size.

I have seen in Cabelas that Pyrodex or somebody is making powder pellets in .44 caliber size. I think that these are 30 grains of powder?

Maybe what I need to do is get a .44 repro, use powder pellets (pyrodex or clean bore), plus the plastic wonder wads over the pellets, with the bullets on top, and not use any grease over the cylinders. I guess that this would speed up the process as fast a possible, without creating a significant safety factor.

Also, sounds like if I pre-treat and bake the piece with bore butter, then this might also cut down on the crud and cleaning.

Anybody use the foregoing system with a .44 revolver?

Thanks for all info.

Best Regards,

Big Paulie

Will52100 · « **Reply #8 on:** March 24, 2005, 09:23:18 AM »

I haven't tried the pryodex pellets, I know some have and like them.

Me personaly the powder fowling from Black Powder is very easy to clean, easier than smokless residue. It just LOOKS dirty. Remember to stay away from petrolium lubes, they tend to turn into tar with black powder.

Also the cost of pyrodex pellets are way to high for the amount of shooting I do, not to mention to me it just ain't right. I order black powder from Graf's for about 8$ a pound and it works great.

I have tried the plastic quik load tubes that Dixie sells, the ones that are made from vinal and you thumb press the ball into them on top of the powder. You just pop the ball out and dump the powder into the chamber, at least in theory. I never got good results with the 36 cal. tubes, but the 44's are thinner and easier to get the balls out.

The bigest thing is to not use to much lube, the right size cap for the nipples so you can use a snail capper, take your time and enjoy! It does get a little messy, and it isnt' as fast as shucking cartriges in the chambers, but I find it very relaxing. Carry a rag to wipe the gun and your hands ocasionaly. Also remeber that with black powder and a quality steel frame gun you don't need to worry about getting the charges pluss or minus 1/10 a grain, just fill the spout leavel and charge the chamber.

I like the 44's, but realy fell in love with the 36 navies, they are very well ballanced, and natural pointers, use less powder and lead and are very acurate.

Also when you bake with bore butter wipe all the excess off when it cools down.

I would like to say that since I'm using a single stage reloading press right now I can shoot a whole lot more cap and ball than cartrige when you count reloading times vs. loading the cap and ball guns. I would rather spend the time on the range shooting letting the days frustraitions ease by.

Flint · « **Reply #9 on:** March 24, 2005, 09:27:13 AM »

I have used Pyrodex pellets in the 44 Army, and it works better than the loose Pyrodex as far as burning and excess glowing embers going downrange. I drop in the pellets, seat Wonder Wads over the pellets then the balls, pressed until I hear the pellet break.

My only problem with the Pellet is the price, as black powder shooting already costs more than smokeless, and Pyrodex or 777 pellets make it more so.

A flask with a 20gr spout for the 36, with fffg GOEX is not a lot slower, and it burns well. Drop the powder in each chamber, place and ram the Wonder Wads, then the balls and you are ready to cap. Look carefully so you don't seat a ball in an empty chamber, as you should only load 5.

There is NO patch on a Cap & Ball bullet, for a 36 cal I found the .380 ball to work best, see Warrenmuzzleloading.com.

It only takes a couple of minutes and is not that messy if you don't use over bullet grease. Do grease the cylinder pin and the cavity behind the cylinder with Bore Butter before you assemble the revolver.

A snail type capper is a great advantage as it holds a full tin of caps.

Also well worth the investment are Treso nipples, see Thunder Ridge website. They have a smaller flash hole for less backpressure, and are sized for Remington #10 caps (which are (now) better than CCI), and are better quality than the Uberti or Pietta nipples

quigleysharps4570 · « **Reply #10 on:** March 24, 2005, 12:49:27 PM »

Just a reminder...always use the wonder wads or grease for those cylinders. I've had 2 cross-fires in my day due to not. :grin: First time I ran out of grease, that was back about 1975. Thought I could get by...when I dropped the hammer...there was a mighty roar and I knew what happened. The one went down the barrel and one on each side of the cylinder went off. That was with a 51 Navy in .36 caliber. Told myself I'd never do that again. About 10yrs. went by and guess what... :grin: ...same scenario. Guess what I did? :grin: Same thing. :grin: Hasn't happened since though.

Big Paulie · « **Reply #11 on:** March 24, 2005, 12:53:42 PM »

Guys,

Thanks for all of the advice. I think that if I do this, I will go with a .44, using pyrodex powder pellets, and wonder wads, and a snail capper.

After you guys shoot, do you have to unscrew and clean all six nipples? (I guess you have to remove all six nipples to clean the chambers?)

How long does it take you to clean and dry the entire revolver.

My problem is: I have adequate hobby money, but very little hobby time.

Thanks, Big Paulie

Ramrod · « **Reply #12 on:** March 24, 2005, 01:10:51 PM »

You will find lots of differant opinions on this, but here is what I do. I clean my guns in the kitchen sink. I remove the grips, cylinder on my Remington, or the barrel and cylinder on my Colt. I drop the whole mess in hot soapy water, (minus grips) and brush and swab the barrel and chambers. I use a toothbrush around the nipples, and I flush the lockwork. Rinse it all well with hot water. Takes about 5 minutes. I have not seen the need to take the gun down any further. And I dry everything in a warm oven, before I lube it up, and re-assemble. Works for me.

Wynn · « **Reply #13 on:** March 24, 2005, 01:10:52 PM »

I've never had to clean the nipples while shooting. The trick is to have good, quality nipples that are correct for your revolver. Do a forum search for posts by a member with the handle Gatofeo. His info is priceless and will save you years of trial and error on the shooting and cleaning of C&B revolvers.

Georgian · « **Reply #14 on:** March 24, 2005, 02:44:32 PM »

To speed up the reloading process, I use my own paper cartridges. I make em out of cigarette rolling papers, they work pretty good to, and the paper serves as wadding btw. the ball and powder when you push it in. I just gotta learn to shoot my 51 Navy better, havenmt gotten the hang of it yet.

Cowpox · « **Reply #15 on:** March 24, 2005, 03:10:41 PM »

I'll apologize before hand for getting off the topic of '51 navies. Recently, after 35 years of shooting cap and ball revolvers, I have witnessed just how fast this old technology can be reloaded.

Now I am well aware that the Army used to issue extra cylinders with the 1858 Remington, and could see how switching an empty cylinder for a loaded one would be a lot faster than reloading the empty one. I also know many users on this forum use extra cylinders. I just never thought about just how fast it could be done.

I have a friend who lives and breaths the Cowboy Action game. About a year ago, he bought a couple 5 1/2 inch 1851 Navies, and started shooting frontier. About 5 weeks ago, he picked up an Uberti revolving carbine to use for the rifle segment. He also bought an extra cylinder because of the 10 shots required for the station, and has been practicing switching cylinders to cut down the time. Last Sunday, I went out to use his range to shoot my Python a little, and he bought out his revolving carbine to keep me company. I was shocked to learn he not only could reload as fast as I could reload with a speed loader, but even edged me a time or two. I was so impressed, that I am going to order a couple extras for my 1858. Just thought I would share this with those of you who are as unaware of this as I was.

Will52100 · « **Reply #16 on:** March 24, 2005, 05:01:00 PM »

On fast reloads the Remingtons have the advantage with extra cylinders. I've got one and much prefer the ballance of the colts though.

My cleaning regimun is to break the gun down when I get it to every last screw and clean and bake with bore butter. Then I asemble with a little bore butter on the internals. After that maybe twice a year I take them down again to get all the built up crud out of the internals. Normal cleaning is every two weeks(I work offshore otherwise it would probably be till the gun slows down) I take the cylinder and barrel off and dunk them in a mix of Ballistol and water and scrub everything. A bore snake is a God send to BP shooters. I may or may not take the grips off and dunk the frame, depends on how much crap has built up on the hammer and if it's beginning to drag. I use a dye dober, the kind with a twisted wire handle and puf ball of fabric on the end to clean chambers and recesses. Wipe everything down and blow everything out with a hair dryier to warm the metal up a little and put back together with a little bore butter on the pin and the slot in the frame for the cylinder hand and I'm good. Never seen rust on one and I live in the humid South.

One thing I have considered if I had more shop space was to get a small parts washer, but cleaning is no real problem.

Forgot to add that I use pipe cleaners on the nipples and only time I take them out is to change them for new ones.

1860 · « **Reply #17 on:** March 25, 2005, 12:54:17 AM »

A word about extra cylinders, do not carry them with caps on the nipples. Back in the 80s a guy in Pa was loading his car to go to the range, his neighbor stopped over and the guy was showing him his 58 Rem, with extra cylinders(fully loaded and capped). His driveway was made of large gravel, when he dropped the cylinder it landed chambers up and one of the caps detonated. The ball hit the neighbor in the thigh.

Besides a capper & balls, I carry a powder flask, a small plastic bottle with Cream-O-wheat(squirts out) and a small cake decorator filled with my homemade lube-also a rag. No loading stands, premeasured charges or pellets, on a Colt style gun I can load 5 well under 2min without any rush, including caps, If I rush and skip the lube it's much quicker. It just takes practice to get a routine down.

1860

quigleysharps4570 · « **Reply #18 on:** March 25, 2005, 02:54:08 AM »

Quote from: 1860

If I rush and skip the lube it's much quicker.

Out of curiosity...why rush and why skip the lube?

Big Paulie · « **Reply #19 on:** March 25, 2005, 07:54:57 AM »

Dear 1860,

OK. I give up. What is the Cream O Wheat for??

filmokentucky · « **Reply #20 on:** March 25, 2005, 11:30:09 AM »

Some folks don't use a full powder charge. The Cream of Wheat takes up the space the powder would have filled. Also adds a step to the loading process.

flamenblaster · « **Reply #21 on:** March 25, 2005, 03:40:33 PM »

Just got back from shooting today..loaded with paper "cartidges" and its pretty fast..found that i can keep a very satisfying cadence by loading and shooting one chamber at a time, skipping the lube and rotating to the next chamber each time. Run 2 patches through the barrel every 3 cylinders..do this anyway with or without lube. Usually start out loading all 6..grease and all for paper targets and sighting (file the sight just a lil bit each time...eventually ill drive tacks with it :grin: ) ..then after ive done that i just have fun shooting at whatever crap other people leave laying around (and bring home and throw away a lot of it too :x )..thats when i start single loading for speed

1860 · « **Reply #22 on:** March 25, 2005, 05:52:31 PM »

Why Rush? My buddy and I shoot in the large swamp behind my house, it has a good sized creek running through it and we float things down it and shoot at them, blocks of wood and stuff we find. Sometimes our aim is not so good :grin: and we have to reload before they "escape"..

Cream-0- Wheat? I use 25 grains in a 44(.45) and the ball seats kind of low. I like the filler because it lets the ball seat near the mouth of the chamber and it takes less lube, and makes less of a mess. I also feel that it cuts down on the fouling in the bore, I think it allows me to better compress the BP and get a better burn..who knows for sure..It adds maybe 15 seconds to the load, I never really timed that part of it.

It just takes practice, just like the soldiers who used ML'g rifles could get off an amazing number of rounds in a minute. You get a routine down and as long as you don't screw up, it goes quick. The most common trouble spot is the capping from what I've seen. I like Remington caps, the metal is thinner and "gives" a little easier when you are capping very dirty nipples. CCIs and RWS give me trouble here and there, even if then normally fit the nipple on the gun I'm using.

60

flamenblaster · « **Reply #23 on:** March 25, 2005, 08:16:30 PM »

1860..why rush?..just impatience i suppose...ive always been fascinated with old guns but "learned" to shoot with an ak47 knockoff..40 round clips..easy to make a whole bunch of cans dance...still have that gun but my pietta 1860 just seems more fun to me...still got that rat-tat-tat in me blood though :grin: ..havent tried "palming" my 1860 yet..probly break a spring methinks and im sure i couldnt hit that way anyhow...slowing down truly is hard some times..but this gun is now my favorite anyhow :grin:

quigleysharps4570 · « **Reply #24 on:** March 26, 2005, 05:23:48 AM »

Quote from: flamenblaster

but this gun is now my favorite anyhow

Gotta love em. My 1860 has sent many, many a snapping turtle to their maker. During the summer I strap on the ole 1860 and walk the edges of the pond in the evening. Catch them laying around the edge...can get the drop on them real fast out of that Hickok holster. :-)