Author Topic: the infamous Ross  (Read 571 times)

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Offline kevin.303

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the infamous Ross
« on: March 27, 2005, 05:02:37 PM »
i'd written a 4 page article on the Ross but my &%$@! computer crash and erased it. so heres some cut and paste for a bit of background info



During the Boer War a minor diplomatic fight broke out between Canada and England, after the latter refused to sell or license the Lee Enfield design for production in Canada. Sir Charles Ross, a Scottish Baronet, inventor and businessman, offered up his new design as a replacement. Ross was well connected in Canadian society, and eventually landed a contract in 1903 for 12,000 Mark 1 Ross rifles.

Although he claimed the design was entirely his own, the action was actually patterned very closely off the Steyr 1890. In this design the bolt locking lugs are mounted on a screw, and when the operating handle is pulled or pushed, the screw turns to screw the locking lugs into the receiver. The design is generally similar to that used on most artillery pieces. Unlike the more common bolt actions from the Mauser and Lee Enfield, the Ross did not need to have the handle rotated to reload, the screw does that, theoretically offering a higher rate of fire.

Service
The first 1000 rifles were given to the RCMP for testing. Routine inspection before operational testing found 113 defects bad enough to warrant rejection. One of these was a poorly designed bolt lock that enabled the bolt to fall right out of the rifle. Another was poorly tempered component springs that were described as being "soft as copper." In 1906 the RCMP reverted back to their Model 94 Winchesters and Lee Metfords.

The rifle was rebuilt to correct the faults and became the Mark II Ross (Model 05). Another minor upgrade resulted in the Mark III, or Model 10 (1910). The Model 10 was the standard infantry weapon of the Canadian Corp when they first arrived in France during World War I.

It was not long before it was relized that the design was still hopeless. Generally when the rifle was used in field conditions the screw threads operating the bolt lugs would become clogged with dirt, and the rifle could jam open or closed. Worse yet, the rifle would sometimes fail to lock closed, but be close enough that it would allow the round to be fired anyway. This led to a number of serious injuries and deaths when the bolt would fly back out of the rifle and hit the operator. The troops took to taking Lee Enfields from dead British troops whenever they could find them.

Complaints rapidly reached the rifle's chief sponsor, the Canadian Minister of Militia and Defence Sam Hughes. He nevertheless continued to believe in its strengths, even following professional advice to the contrary from Sir Edwin Alderson. In particular the Ross was more accurate at long range than the SMLE, addressing a serious problem British and Canadian troops had faced with the accurate long range fire from the 7mm Mauser during the Boer War.



Replacement
By July 1916 Sir Douglas Haig, the new Commander-in-Chief, had ordered the replacement of all Ross rifles by the Lee-Enfield, which was finally available in quantity. Hughes refused to accept that there were problems with the Ross, and it took the intervention of many influential people to persuade him otherwise. In November 1916, Hughes resigned, after Sir Robert Borden's decision to appoint a Minister of Overseas Forces. Ross rifles were then used in training roles, both in Canada and England, to free up more Lee-Enfields. More were shipped to the US in 1917 for the same reasons, freeing up supplies of the Springfield 1903 rifle.


Sporting variant
In 1907 a version of the Mark II was produced in a new and very powerful .280" caliber sporting round. The new round required strengthening of the bolt and receiver area, but the rifle was otherwise only slightly different from the .303 Mark II's. The problems with the Ross in combat were generally that it was a sporting rifle asked to work in the trenches, so it might not be surprising that in the original sporting role the Ross became quite popular. The new round gained it a fearsome reputation for medium sized game, and was a common weapon on safari.


any of you folks own a Ross? as a target and hunting rifle i love them, but i would not want to go into combat with one. the big problem with jamming was mass produced British ammuntion. it was made for the more generous chamber of the Lee, not the tight tolerances of the Ross. man is it a tack driver! it's okay with WW@ surplus ammo and all sporting rounds. later i'll post the story of my Great Grandfathers experiances carrying the Ross in combat in WW1.
" oh we didn't sink the bismarck, and we didn't fight at all, we spent our time in Norfolk and we really had a ball. chasing after women while our ship was overhauled, living it up on grapefruit juice and sick bay alcohol"

Offline jh45gun

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the infamous Ross
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2005, 06:21:20 PM »
Kevin, It is a interesting rifle. I think a lot of Americans never trusted the Ross for the reasons of the oversized chambers that were a knee jerk reaction to the battle conditions. That must have been the English solution to a battle rifle evidently as they did the same thing to the Enfields. Or the comments of it being a bore burner like the 6MM lee Navy. Another problem in the States is that most of the gun blue books state that this is considered a unsafe rifle. Wether it is or is not is not the issue here I am just saying it has a Reputation for being a unsafe rifle in the States.  (Sources: Blue Book of Gun Values and Gun Traders Guide)  Part of that may be due to the writings of Elmer Keith. He stated several times in his books that the Ross bolt could be taken apart and not put back together again right and it would come out the end on fireing and hurt or kill you. Now I am not saying that this is the case with all of them I would say that if they checked out with a gunsmith they would be fine to shoot. Once a rumor or sometimes fact gets started about a gun though it sure can wreak havoc with it.  It is too bad such a interesting rifle has such a checkered past. Still it is a interesting rifle and one that would be nice to have for a collector if not a shooter. Sad part is I buy Milsurps to shoot not to collect. I am sure a Ross would  be out of my price range just to have as a collector and as far as a shooter goes If the experts say they may be unsafe I will bow to their judment as I have lots of guns to shoot I know are safe.  Kevin if you got a good one that is great more power to you. Jim
Said I never had much use for one, never said I didn't know how to use it.

Offline 1911crazy

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the infamous Ross
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2005, 12:40:40 AM »
I have some Boer rifles, the 7mm mausers.             BigBill

Offline kevin.303

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the infamous Ross
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2005, 01:08:24 PM »
only some models of the Ross can be assembled incorrectly. and if you make yourself familar with the rifle it won't happen. many have been modifed by gunsmiths to prevent incorrect assembly. as far the price on a shooter goes, the cut down models range from $100 to $200. people still don't trust them even though it's been proven safe if you pay attention to what you are doing. unaltered ones sell high up here but cheap in the states, for the reason that they are either considered unsafe, or ar not that well known and the price is kept down to get rid of it. it wasn't the oversized chamber that was the problem on the Ross. it was too well made. it needed precision made ammo which the British couldn't mass produce in the scale needed. WW2 & later surplus and all sporting loads will work fine in the rifle. i plan to buy one this year, most likely a bubba, but a good bubba none the less. it got it's bad reputation as battle rifle and that followed it, but it excels as a target/hunting rifle. if you can find one in your price range, i say grab it. they are all so used to build customs in calibers like .300 H & H. now that would be a cool rifle.
" oh we didn't sink the bismarck, and we didn't fight at all, we spent our time in Norfolk and we really had a ball. chasing after women while our ship was overhauled, living it up on grapefruit juice and sick bay alcohol"

Offline Rick Teal

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the infamous Ross
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2005, 01:35:22 PM »
I've been keeping my eyes open for a decent Ross for the past couple of years myself.  

I owned one when I was younger, and the thing shot like a charm, however, I wanted it as a hunter, and mine was just too barrel heavy to be comfortable carrying it around.  

JY Cannuck had one rechambered to .303 Epps, but apparently it has trouble feeding the bulkier case.  A rebarrel to 8mm with a straight neck-up might be the answer to re-doing a Ross.
Hunting is Exciting!  Bolt actions are BORING!!
Don't mix the two!

Offline jh45gun

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the infamous Ross
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2005, 09:10:31 PM »
I doubt if I will buy one unless I stumbled on the one cheap as I got too many rifles I am trying to reload for now on a paupers budget. Just bought the K31 and got to get dies for that and work up a good load Cast and jacketed. Jim
Said I never had much use for one, never said I didn't know how to use it.

Offline 1911crazy

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the infamous Ross
« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2005, 01:21:42 AM »
jh45gun;  I understand the budget I'm just coasting right now but still looking anyway.  While i let and missed some great buys I'm just browsing but there's not that much cheap stuff around here.  Everything seems to be hitting between $150 to $200 now for all surplus rifles.  But i'm seeing an awful lot of Jap and M1 Garands (all bring backs) being hocked at local gun shops, these guys are walking in was I'm browsing. I just seen one awesome looking Garand and who knows what little $$ he got for it too.  These are the sons turning in there dads who were in WW2 its there bring back and probably the rifle they used in WW2.  I have heard rumors of problems with automatic weapons that were brought back from WW2 too that no one has an idea what to do about too?  The only thing i can think of is there are many 45 thompsons and who knows how many BAR's out there too.  I'm not sure what the future of them holds but what do you do with them and how will they handle it.  I guess in the end the'll be turned in but they should have an "granted amisty turn in period" so these don't get into the wrong hands.  Or make them legal to own with a register period.  Something should be done either way to get a handle on it because its their mistake that was made years ago.  BigBill

Offline jh45gun

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the infamous Ross
« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2005, 08:49:27 AM »
Yep it is a shame the guns the GOV has trashed also expecially under the KLINTON Regime. Just seeing pics of all those guns going into the scrap heap is enough to give a guy nightmares!   :roll:
Said I never had much use for one, never said I didn't know how to use it.