Author Topic: Carronade signal cannon help (Read 2482 times)

RvanM · « **on:** March 29, 2005, 04:03:56 AM »

I was looking at the full scale carronade barrel at Hern Iron Works for use as a signal cannon. After reading about how the barrels are made I'm wondering if this is a good idea. Does anybody have any thoughts on this?

Double D · « **Reply #1 on:** March 29, 2005, 05:32:21 AM »

I would classify Hern Iron works as an unfinished cannon tube. It's up to you to put the liner in and finish the tube.

Note, I have learned this is not correct. Hern tubes come with seamless liners.

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #2 on:** March 29, 2005, 06:32:18 AM »

Quote from: RvanM

I was looking at the full scale carronade barrel at Hern Iron Works for use as a signal cannon. After reading about how the barrels are made I'm wondering if this is a good idea. Does anybody have any thoughts on this?

RvanM -
WELCOME !

I agree with DD. My concern is with the unlined tube is that the cannon I saw explode was 'just a signal cannon' firing a small handfull of powder packed with newspaper. The presssure can still be substantial.

GGaskill · « **Reply #3 on:** March 29, 2005, 03:23:55 PM »

Hate to be a party pooper but the barrel that Hern calls a carronade does not resemble what I understand to be a carronade. I don't know what it copies.

This image from South Bend Replicas is what I understand a carronade should look like (even though these are actually "gunnades".) There used to be a carronade diagram on the USS Constitution site but I can't find it now.

Regarding using one as a signal gun, their large bores require more powder for the same loudness of report than a smaller long barreled gun.

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #4 on:** March 29, 2005, 03:30:59 PM »

Here's a link - draw your own conclusions.

http://www.hms.org.uk/nelsonsnavycarronade.htm

To me the tube profile looks similar, but the text in the link describes no trunions but a single loop underneith for afixing to the carriage.

GGaskill · « **Reply #5 on:** March 29, 2005, 05:14:52 PM »

I saw that image while searching for images. A true carronade doesn't have trunnions; it has a lug under the barrel that a bar passes through that attaches it to its carriage. The USS Constitution carronades are mounted on a pivoting slide instead of a wheeled carriage.

The SBR image above was more to contrast with Hern's image than to say that they were true carronades. The shape is the same except for the trunnions. Hern's barrel (image below) looks like a barrel from an earlier period.

http://www.hernironworks.com/cannons/carronade1.jpg">

GGaskill · « **Reply #6 on:** March 29, 2005, 08:45:30 PM »

It turns out that I had saved a copy of the Constitution carronade drawing on my home computer (the actual image is twice as big as the one below.) Interestingly, it has trunnions. And the http://www.ussconstitution.navy.mil/images/carronades.JPG" target="_blank">photograph on the Constitution site appears to show trunnions.

http://www.stolenguns.com:443/images/constitutioncarronade2.jpg" target="_blank">

http://www.stolenguns.com:443/images/constitutioncarronade2.jpg" width="585">

RvanM · « **Reply #7 on:** March 30, 2005, 09:18:47 AM »

I appreciate the replies. To make a long story short, I purchased a 1/2 scale napoleon last year only to find that the liner had floated off center making the barrel expensive lawn art. I am looking for a safe barrel with a large bore, my thinking being that a large bore will give a louder report. I prefer the naval carriage and the above barrels interest me greatly. Where can I find them?

GGaskill · « **Reply #8 on:** March 30, 2005, 12:36:00 PM »

A larger bore will require more powder to make the same report. Unless you are trying to wake the entire valley, a small bore (1 inch maybe) will be satisfactory and more economical.

Could you plug and redrill your existing barrel to a smaller bore? Or drill out the liner and reline?

RvanM · « **Reply #9 on:** March 30, 2005, 02:08:03 PM »

I live in Kansas and nothing soaks up noise like open space. No more often than I will be firing it I want it to be as loud as possible. It looks like along with floating off center the liner actually warped. Its about 3/4" from one side.

GGaskill · « **Reply #10 on:** March 30, 2005, 02:17:24 PM »

What is the bore diameter?

RvanM · « **Reply #11 on:** March 30, 2005, 03:00:37 PM »

1 1/2"

CAV Trooper · « **Reply #12 on:** March 30, 2005, 05:56:12 PM »

Quote

I purchased a 1/2 scale napoleon last year only to find that the liner had floated off center

That's common with cannons that have the liner cast in place instead of the casting being drilled and sleeved. Would you ming telling us where it came from?

Double D · « **Reply #13 on:** March 30, 2005, 06:10:33 PM »

Yes please tell us where you got the barrel. Wouldn't the company make good on it?

There is a discussion in the Complete Cannoneer on casting barrels with liners in place. How iti s done and what to look for.

RvanM · « **Reply #14 on:** March 31, 2005, 02:44:46 AM »

The barrel came from Grey-Star and is the 1/2 scale 6 pounder. When contacted they insisted that the barrel was safe. I'm just not comfortable firing it with my family and others around. The problem was discovered when my brother in law (a machinist) and myself (a cabinet maker) went to drill the vent hole. We used a 1/8" drill bit on a press. Everything was centered but the drill bit missed the bore off to the side(the bore is that far off.) I like the barrel and l like the size. Tim went out of his way in getting it to me in a timely manner, service was great. Just not the family heirloom I was looking for. The barrel has been fired with 1oz of 1fg several times from a long distance away and did not burst. I would rather have a new safe barrel.

Double D · « **Reply #15 on:** March 31, 2005, 03:29:45 AM »

Grey-Star huh!

Is the tube seamless or seamed?

Did Grey-star offer to exchange the barrel?

RvanM · « **Reply #16 on:** March 31, 2005, 06:02:43 AM »

I want to make it clear that I am not Grey-Star bashing. I purchased the barrel on July 27, 2004. I notified Grey-Star by e-mail of the problem, They replied that the barrel is safe. I replied that I would like a replacement barrel, I then received a phone call that they would rather not do that and that the barrel was safe. In fact I was told "The liner itself was so strong that it could be fired safely without the cast metal around it." We redrilled the vent so it would enter the breech and have fired it several times from a safe distance without bursting. Wether or not it's safe I do not know. When I want to use the barrel (4th of July, birthdays, new years, weddings, etc.) i'm not comfortable. Large groups of people and questional barrels not a good combination in my book. The barrel is lined. Would any of you feel safe about fire this cannon? Any way I can test the safety of this barrel?

Randell · « **Reply #17 on:** March 31, 2005, 08:45:23 AM »

I have purchased a number of barrels from South Bend Replicas ofver the years...First class and Safe. They have been around a long time. I am sure that others do good work also. Seems to me as always has been true> You get what you pay for. If anyone is looking for shooting locations or clubs in the Northern Kalifornia Peoples Republic send me a email

GGaskill · « **Reply #18 on:** March 31, 2005, 09:26:58 AM »

I can kind of understand their not wanting to set a precedent of exchanging barrels. On the other hand, I don't understand their sending out a shootable barrel in this condition, whether they consider it safe or not. They can only cause dissatisfaction and bad publicity. Barrels with this kind of defect should be plugged at half depth and sold as lawn ornaments only.

A half scale Napoleon should be 5.5" in diameter at the breech. For a 1.5" bore, the liner OD is probably 2" to 2.5". If the touch hole missed the bore, the liner is at least .75" plus the radius of the drill off center, which would put it less than .75" from the outside of the barrel.

If you really want to proof test the barrel, use a double charge of powder and a double charge of shot and fire from a protected location in a safe direction. If the barrel survives this test without visible damage (such as swelling or cracking in the thin spot), I would consider it safe to use with the normal charge and shot weight. Even a perfect barrel can be destroyed by abusive use.

Double D · « **Reply #19 on:** April 01, 2005, 02:46:11 AM »

There is no doubt in my mind that in the interest of liability Gray-Star should have replaced that tube without question.

Is the liner straight or is it bent. If the liner is straight and off center-canted it's going to twist everytime it fires, putting undue stress on carriage and trunnions. The bore would not point where the barrel pointed.

Did they sell you a seamless liner or a seamed liner? Seamed liners should not be used in firing cannons.

The more I hear about Gay-star the more I am concerned about their lack of knowledge about cannon safety. The may know about casting metal, but if the liners are crooked they can't understand casting cannons with liners.

We are not here to bash anyones product. We are here to promote safe firing and construction of muzzle loading cannon. By pointing out unsafe construction procedures we are only doing it for purpose of safety.

John N · « **Reply #20 on:** April 01, 2005, 03:00:07 AM »

Quote

DD says: Seamless liners should not be used in firing cannons.

Of course he meant to say that liners with seams should not be used in firing cannons and that seamless liners are the only safe way to go.

Double D · « **Reply #21 on:** April 01, 2005, 04:46:04 AM »

Thanks John for catching that, I fixed it.

I had knee surgery yesterday. The warning label on the painpill bottle says don't drive or operate machinery when using this medication...must mean a computer is a machine!

RvanM, NSSA safety regulations require 1 caliber wall thickness surrounding the breech. With the liner off center 3/4 of an inch and a bore diameter of a 1 1/2 inches you need a barrel diameter of 6 inches at the breech. If you have that then shoot your gun.

If you have a seamed liner you can shoot it , but it requires meticulous care. First see if you can identify where the seam is on the liner and make a witness mark on you muzzle. Get a brake cylinder hone and hone the bore of your gun so you have good clean metal and remove the ridge of the seam.

Always clean and dry the bore as soon as possible after shooting. The Complete Cannoneer has a drawing on how to make an inspection mirror. Make one for your gun. Every time you get ready to shoot your gun inspect the bore especially along that seam line. Look for staining or discoloration as the result of rusting/corrosion of the seam. If you come up with Rust or discoloration use the barrel as a gate post.

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #22 on:** April 01, 2005, 07:03:59 AM »

Quote from: Double D

.... I had knee surgery yesterday. The warning label on the painpill bottle says don't drive or operate machinery when using this medication...must mean a computer is a machine! ....

Welcome back DD! I figured you'd find a way to get to the confuser.

We'll give you a day or two off drugs to get back and edit anything you say while on them.

Those are good rules of thumb that N-SSA has - now it makes sense - the 1 caliber thickness - because of the potential off-center of the liner. I have great respect for rules that are derived by an organization from years of EXPERIENCE.

RvanM · « **Reply #23 on:** April 01, 2005, 08:53:03 AM »

This is good information to have. I wish I would of had it before I purchased a barrel. I have ordered a South-Bend catalog and have e-mailed a couple of manufactures asking what liners they use if any and about their construction methods. Just so I am clear, I want a barrel with a seamless liner and a breech wall thickness of at least one caliber. Are there any eceptions to this rule? Can I find a "shooter" barrel with at least a 2" bore, weighs less than 300lbs and costs around $1000?

Double D · « **Reply #24 on:** April 01, 2005, 09:41:49 AM »

I'm sure you can find something like what you are describing. I would start with board sponsor Neff Cannons. Drop him an email and see what he might be able to come up with for you.

If Rick doesn't have what you need try Where to find Blackpowder Cannons and shooting supplies post at the top of the board

John N · « **Reply #25 on:** April 01, 2005, 09:56:19 AM »

RvanM,

If you are willing to look at something other than a carronade, you might want to give David Ross over at Cannon Mania a call and see if he'll sell you the 1/2 scale Napoleon barrel he offers as part of a complete field cannon. With a 2.25" bore and 148 lb weight, it should meet a lot of your criteria. Best of all it's constructed of machined steel so there's no liner to worry about. It's one of the safest and strongest construtction designs and should make a pretty good boom with a 2 oz bank load.

By the way, does any out here have a decibel meter? There are quite a few meters on the internet for under a $100. They all measure up to 130 db and lock in the highest measurement. It would be kind of interesting to compare different guns and different loads. Of course some cannons are going to exceed 130 db, and you might have to take db measurements from a hundred feet away or more for the 'big boys".

GGaskill · « **Reply #26 on:** April 01, 2005, 10:14:37 AM »

I think the $1000 limit is going to be the most restrictive requirement. I know that I figured out how much a bronze 1/2 scale mountain howitzer would have to sell for just to make a reasonable labor rate and it was over $2000. And I think I only figured machining time in that, not the foundry time, too.

RvanM · « **Reply #27 on:** April 05, 2005, 10:22:59 AM »

My brother in law has access to a large lathe. We have talked about the possibility of putting a piece of solid rod in the bore and then redrilling for a new liner. If the liner is warped, finding someplace that will fill the bore with cast metal then redrilling for new liner. First, would this be safe? Secondly, we are unsure of how to bore a 2 1/2" hole that deep. I am thinking of using a 2 1/2 od x 1 1/2 Id Dom liner. Any comments would be greatly appreciated.

GGaskill · « **Reply #28 on:** April 05, 2005, 09:31:06 PM »

It kind of depends what "large lathe" really means. If it has a center-to-center length of 80" or so, it would be long enough to drill a half scale Napoleon. However, you will need to drill a 31.5" deep hole for the bore, which is a non-trivial process. If you have the tooling for that, I would be sorely tempted to buy a 3' piece of 6" round 1018 or 1020 steel and turn a whole new barrel. More expensive but you would have an all steel barrel which wouldn't need a liner. The shape of a Napoleon is not complicated; only one long taper, one shallow radius, a couple of small radii on the muzzle and then the cascable.

Drilling out the old barrel would be an interesting exercise due to the asymmetrical distribution of metal. The hole would have to be bored, and getting the chips out of a 32" deep hole virtually demands oil being pumped down to the area of the cutting. I would recommend boring to 3" because that would get rid of all of the old bore. But unless the liner is fused to the casting, there would be a significant risk of the liner remnant coming out. Also, the casting would be only .25" thick in the small area behind the muzzle.

Filling the bore with metal before drilling is likely to be impractical. The whole barrel would need to be heated to at least 600Âº F and unless the filler fused with the liner, it wouldn't really help.

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #29 on:** April 05, 2005, 11:59:37 PM »

Quote from: GGaskill

It kind of depends what "large lathe" really means. If it has a center-to-center length of 80" or so, it would be long enough to drill a half scale Napoleon. However, you will need to drill a 31.5" deep hole for the bore, which is a non-trivial process. If you have the tooling for that, I would be sorely tempted to buy a 3' piece of 6" round 1018 or 1020 steel and turn a whole new barrel. More expensive but you would have an all steel barrel which wouldn't need a liner. The shape of a Napoleon is not complicated; only one long taper, one shallow radius, a couple of small radii on the muzzle and then the cascable.

Drilling out the old barrel would be an interesting exercise due to the asymmetrical distribution of metal. The hole would have to be bored, and getting the chips out of a 32" deep hole virtually demands oil being pumped down to the area of the cutting. I would recommend boring to 3" because that would get rid of all of the old bore. But unless the liner is fused to the casting, there would be a significant risk of the liner remnant coming out. Also, the casting would be only .25" thick in the small area behind the muzzle.

Filling the bore with metal before drilling is likely to be impractical. The whole barrel would need to be heated to at least 600Âº F and unless the filler fused with the liner, it wouldn't really help.

Spot on! Good assessment.

Take a look at CJ's boring of her cannon barrel - mucho time and a bit smaller, BUT it was done on a smallish lathe (compared to the length of barrel). There is a picture early in the series of her home-made rig to hold the looong boring bar. (Under the topic of where is everybody?).