Author Topic: Hunting Question? (Read 1080 times)

sabotloader · « **on:** March 30, 2005, 11:28:15 AM »

I am a pure novice when it comes to handguns.

How effective is a 45 when using it as a back-up on animals, such as wolf - black bear - or even coyotes. I wondering about a animals of this type within 30 yards - will it stop them?

I just came by an Auto-Ordinance 1911 competion model that the price was just to good to pass on. I am wondering about it as a back-up for a single shot ML during rifle season. Planning on using 230 grain HP's...

Thanks for any information - I probably posted this question in the wrong place - if I did I am sorry...

MtJerry · « **Reply #1 on:** March 30, 2005, 11:33:29 AM »

Wolf and coyote - yes, if you can hit it at 30 yards. Short barrels tend to make this a challenge.

Bear - not only no, but h@ll no! It will severely irritate them and give them the urge to chew your arms and legs off!

It is most effective against 2-legged predators that are within 20 yards or less.

HouseofCash · « **Reply #2 on:** March 30, 2005, 11:51:07 AM »

I shot coyote with mine almost on a daily basis, there is no bag limit of corse and they are a big problem in my neck of the wood here in Tn. I kinda enjoy it, I got sick of shotting them at 200 or 300 years with the REM. 40X-B in 308. after about 150 or 175 kills that gets old. At lest with the .45 they have a chance to get away it is hit or miss. As far as wolf. I have no clue, there not much bigger so I do not see it being a problem. I would say a wolf in a pack so more likely to try and attack you till you fire a round.

David.

myronman3 · « **Reply #3 on:** March 30, 2005, 01:41:44 PM »

certainly coyoetes, and most likely wolves, too. i wouldnt know for sure about the wolves, havent done it personally. dropped my rottweiler like a stone, though. as far as bears, it beats your finger nails. i know a guy that ran off a sow with a 22 fired in the air. the bang scared her away.

sabotloader · « **Reply #4 on:** March 30, 2005, 04:28:44 PM »

All,

Coyotes, The only problem I can think might happen there is them getting on a downed Elk before I can get it all out. I was quite sure the 45 would handle that problem,

Wolves, Idaho has seen fit to re-establish wolves in Idaho and 2 years ago there was a good sized pack of them sharing the elk hunting area with us. I don't think I would ever have a problem with them - except maybe over the down meat thing but I would like to ready.

Bear, the only thing that might happen there that might cause a confrontatation is getting in between a sow and her cubs.

In any of these situations 30 yards would be the long shot 10/20 yards and less might be the real thing.

Option - would I be better off with a 357 revolver? - I just kinda worry about it being to fast and to powerful at close range. Again I am a novice - I mean real novice.

Although at the range I have been very happy with my abiltity to hit a piece of paper - and again I know that is a lot different than shooting a mad animal.

One last thought - I would hope that I never have to use the pistol. it is sort of a last resort thing but I would want it to be effective.

Thanks for the help...

myronman3 · « **Reply #5 on:** March 31, 2005, 12:13:36 PM »

i aint going into detail, but my brother had a situation with a black bear this last year; now he is the proud new owner of a glock 20 10mm. sixteen rounds with more beef than a 357. he is shooting 180 grain cast bullets @1100 fps- no joke.

i love my 45, but i see a 10mm in my future. the only question is whether it will be a glock or kimber. i am leaning toward the glock because of capacity. if only kimber would come out with a double stack ten mm......

Mikey · « **Reply #6 on:** April 01, 2005, 03:14:34 AM »

myronman - ya'll were comparing the 357 with the 10mm. Sorry buddy, but a 200 gn 357 cast swc at 1300+'/sec goes a bit better than the 10mm with a 180 grainer at 1100'/sec.

Howsoever, load up that 10mm with some heavier 200 grainers and she gets closer.

With bear, even black bear, the usual configuration of cast bullets in the 10mm bore doesn't lend to the harder hitting aspects of a semiwadcutter bullet. If that 10 can function with swcs, like the RCBS 170 gr Keith style swc, that helps exponentially.

The last balck bear I shot was at fairly close range ('bout 15 yds), and that was with my 40 caliber wildcat, which can shoot swc cast slugs. I hit the bear dead on halfway 'twixt the left eye and the ear with a 170 gn hardcast swc which had been chronographed at 1300'sec and it killed him immediately. The bullet broke out the off side of the skull and was not recovered. However, I have no doubt a 200 gn hardcast 357 swc at close to 1300'/sec would have done the same.

All that being said though I am certain your brother feels a whole bunch better with his glock. Mikey.

Questor · « **Reply #7 on:** April 01, 2005, 03:16:59 AM »

The 45ACP is an incredibly lame hunting cartridge to begin with, and the only thing that makes it even somewhat adequate for hunting is the right bullet. You'll need to research which bullets really work for hunting. I used to hunt woodchucks with the 45, but gave it up because it was unsporting. The 22 LR is much deadlier and effective on these critters than the 45.

myronman3 · « **Reply #8 on:** April 01, 2005, 12:05:35 PM »

Quote

a 200 gn 357 cast swc at 1300+'/sec

if you want to hot rod it, maybe. i personally aint going to beat the turds out of my gun trying to set new standards for the 357. hotrodding aint for me.
refering to my speer reloading book... for the 357 they list 158 grain bullets around 1150-1200 fps. for the 10mm they list 180 grain bullets around 1200fps, and 200 grain bullets around 1150 to 1200 fps. these are standard loads, no hotrodding; and it is published data that has been tested in ways i cant test my loads. add the diameter of the 10mm bullet, then multiply that by the number of rounds in the magazine. finally, divide the whole equation by "pie" (for the 3.14 pieces i had for lunch

). now you should be able to see two things 1. with standard loads, the 10mm beats the 357 2. i am full of pie (or something like that).

seriously- yes, loads can be made for a 357 that have more than a 10. just like a 41 mag can be loaded to 44 mag velocities and bullet weights. but with standard loads, the ten wins.

palgeno · « **Reply #9 on:** April 02, 2005, 01:57:36 AM »

A few years back, I decided to turn one of my 1911's---a ported 5" Springfield--- into a .45 Super to hunt pigs at close range with dogs. It went through minor modifications---22 lb recoil sprind and Cominolli Frame Saver tungston guide rod and buffer system. Using .45 Super brass from Starline, I tried 180 and 200 gr XTP's but settled on 200 gr Oregon Trail hardcast lead SWC over Power Pistol. Results were chronoed at 1250 fps with very controllable recoil and acceptable accuracy---usually around 2 inches at 25 yds. This was no Bullseye gun to start with so, I was OK with it. :grin: Double taps on pigs put 'em down without hitting a dog. Sure was fun! Haven't used this gun for a couple of years---I think it needs some exercise!!!

I don't live in pig country anymore, but If I could find a blind coyote without a nose, I'd be in business!!! :wink:

Mikey · « **Reply #10 on:** April 02, 2005, 02:31:01 AM »

myronman3: Actually, the 200 gn 357 load at 1335'/sec is a factory listed Winchester load from earlier loading data. It may sound like a hot load but the pressure comparisons list their 158 gn loads as running between 38 and 42K psi. The 200 gn/1335'/sec load using WW296 is listed at 35K psi.

I have found that in my N-frame S&Ws this load shoots very easily. This load was also one of my favorites in the Model 19 on the silhouette course. The 200 grainers would take the ram at 200 yds cleanly - not so with the 158s from a 4" bbl.

It isn't a matter of hotrodding a load - I have never really had much luck with that and consider it dangerous, which is why I am glad I have found a heavy factory loading that works in my revolvers.

And, I am pretty familiar with the 40 caliber/10mm rounds out there, having wildcatted, developed and hunted with the first 10mm round based on the 45 acp case. In my particular case design, which the 40 Super now closely approximates, a 180 gn (or 170 or 160 all from the same mold using different hardness mixtures) at 1300'/sec (+ or - ) is the most accurate and lethal from my pistols. The closest a factory loading in the 10mm that compares favorably is the old 200 gn load at 1200'/sec (one of the original Norma loads for the Bren Ten).

All this however is just FYI. Whatever works well for one hunter may not work for another.

The question posted was whether the 45 acp was a good backup for coyote, wolf or bear at about 30 yds and Questor's response was accurate - the 45 is a bit lame when it comes to hunting. About the best thing you can do for the 45 acp if you intend to use it as backup against predatory game is to stuff it with either the RCBS 223 grn cast flatnose at about 875-900'/sec (easily reloadable without hotrodding) or some flying ashtrays at around 1100'/sec.

If sabotloader does not reload, then the off the shelf 180 - 200 grain fast moving hollowpoints would most likely be his best choice for wolf or coyote. If he thinks he will encounter bear, he might want to consider the 230 grain Federals. And if he is still concerned he should carry more rifle ammo. Mikey.

myronman3 · « **Reply #11 on:** April 02, 2005, 03:39:22 AM »

in my 45, i use several loads- all depending on what i am planning on doing. for walks when animals might be a problem, i have a 255 gr semi wad cutter @ 800fps i carry. very accurate and hard hitting (for a 45).

44 Man · « **Reply #12 on:** April 02, 2005, 08:11:10 AM »

My 'woods walking' load when I choose to carry a 1911 .45 is a hard cast 200gr SWC over 7.3 gr of Unique. This load does 980 fps out of my 5" and will do anything I feel I would ask of it. I would not go into the woods with deer hunting in mind, but I would not hesitate to take a reasonable shot with it either. While I have never shot a deer with a .45, I have an officer friend who has put down many in the course of his duties. He says the .45 acp does it with authority. (unlike the 9mm he used to have to carry) I have experimented with the 255 gr cast flat point at 800 fps and that would be a very capible load also. 44 Man

MI VHNTR · « **Reply #13 on:** April 02, 2005, 03:28:36 PM »

My woods carry handgun is my 1911 Springfield loaded with 450 SMC ammo. Here are the ballistics from a 5" barrel:
230 gr 1150 FPS/675 FT/LBS
165 gr 1450 FPS/770 FT/LBS

The only changes to the gun are a 24 lb. recoil spring and a buffer. It functions just fine with "normal" 45 ACP loads setup this way too. More than enough power for most uses that I will encounter. MI VHNTR

pastorp · « **Reply #14 on:** April 05, 2005, 01:39:59 PM »

myronman3, The only advantage with the glocks 16 rounds is if you plan to miss a lot. My kimber holds plenty of ammo if you can shoot. :-D

Seriously, The glock does have a weight advantage and good sights for my eyes. The grip is large for many folks. And the triggers are terrible compared to a good 1911 trigger. The glock 20 that I had did not seam as accurate as my Kimber. But that could have been that terrible trigger at work. Regards, Byron

myronman3 · « **Reply #15 on:** April 05, 2005, 02:30:19 PM »

Quote

And the triggers are terrible compared to a good 1911 trigger. The glock 20 that I had did not seam as accurate as my Kimber

if you are looking for an arguement, you aint going to get one out of me with that statement.

Quote

But that could have been that terrible trigger at work.

most likely. i had no problem putting the hurt one the target. my brother, now that was a different story. but he isnt as practiced as me, either. i can run circles around the glock with my kimber (as could my bro). he is putting a trigger part in the gun, and if he doesnt start improving, he is going for a 10mm kimber. i do see a 10 in my future, whether it is a glock or a kimber is the only question.

pastorp · « **Reply #16 on:** April 05, 2005, 04:30:05 PM »

myronman3, I really like the kimbers, I have 3 in 45acp & the 10mm.

The 10mm would feed empty cases right out of the box. I have experienced no problems at all with this gun. I have enough confidence in this gun that last summer I carried it fishing in the salmon streams here in Alaska.

I will half to say that I experienced no problems with the glock either. And it was reasonably accurate. The main thing I liked about the glock was the weight. The glock 20 is not as comfortable in my hand as a 1911. I did have a glock 31 a few years ago and that size grip feels good to me. The main objection I guess is the trigger. maybe I could learn to shoot them well, but I think it would require me giving up my other guns until I mastered the glock trigger.

The other consideration is the price. You could buy the glock and a case of good ammo for what the Kimber costs. Regards, Byron

ought6 · « **Reply #17 on:** April 10, 2005, 04:09:35 PM »

Micky,
Did you actually chronograph that 180 gr bullet at 1300 fps? I'm sorry, but that is very hard to believe. I've recently loaded the book max load of W296 for a 180 gr in my .357 4" barrel and chronographed it at 1050fps.