Author Topic: suitability of wheel weights for bpcr bullets (Read 1137 times)

swifty · « **on:** March 30, 2005, 01:20:08 PM »

The conventional wisdom has been to use wheel weights for alloy for cast bullets. However, in bpcr bullets are supposed to bump up to fill bore size.
In fact in Wolfe's book on loading for the original 1884 Trapdoor Springfield the author is emphatic No-antimony at all as this will keep the bullet from having the necessary malleability to bump up at bp pressures.
I just finished making 50 pounds of ignots from wheel weights. A few broke open when I dumped the ignot. The inside of the ignot looks very graindular similar to limestone. This reminds me of the slag that I scoop off with the steel tags on the wheel weights. If the ignot will break open when dumped on other ignots, what will it do when shot from a gun ?
In talking to some competitive bpcr shooters , they tell me they are no longer using wheel weights but are buying the 20-1 alloy.
There is just a lot of impurities in wheel weights that give it a texture that may not be good for bpcr shooting.
[b]How many are using wheel weights for bpcr shooting or how many are buying the tin-lead alloy?[/b]

Trapper-Jack · « **Reply #1 on:** March 30, 2005, 04:56:52 PM »

I've been shooting wheel weights for about the last two years. The weights I've been using will cast a bullet of about 11-12 BHN when used straight. The last few months I have gone to mixing a soft lead scrap from the recycle yard about 50/50 with wheel weights and it has given me a bullet of about 8-9 BHN. I like it a little better and have gotten groups as small as 1 1/2 MOA at 200 yards with it. This is probably not in the same league as the commercially blended lead, but at this stage of the game for me the economics are the deciding factor. Also I understand that the antimony will make the lead harden with age.

crashresidue · « **Reply #2 on:** March 30, 2005, 06:43:41 PM »

Cheers people,

I've read about "aged" alloy bullets before and I'm don't have a clue about the time frame that's being talked about.

Is it days, weeks, months, or years?

Any help would be appreciated.

Genlte winds,
cr

Ray Newman · « **Reply #3 on:** March 30, 2005, 07:24:03 PM »

CR: "aged" otr "aging" period is whatever the Catser wants it to be.

I know of some Casters who shoot the bullets w/in a week or so; others a few days or the next day.

Ray Newman · « **Reply #4 on:** March 30, 2005, 07:25:45 PM »

Swifty: I had the same experince 'bouit 10 years or so back. Since then I buy my lead & tin from Buffalo Arms & mix my own alloy.

fffffg · « **Reply #5 on:** March 31, 2005, 05:01:05 AM »

i buy scrap lead from the junk yard here and it always seems to have some anitmony in it.. just a tad seems to have similar effects as alot as in some other materials inb chemisitry applications.. cant verify this as i havent devoted alot of time to it.. but you will generall know if you have antimony by the biggist problem ive found with it.. it will tend to tear at the spru cutt off point.. thus leaveing a divot.. inside this tear you will see the granular surface your talking about.. hardness from the books ive read tends to be towards maximum (that is aproximat it keeps getting harder for awhile if i remember right) at about 2-3 weeks and i like to let them set at least 9 days.. ive seen charts on this and 9 days is very little difference from the harder bullets let set longer... you will notice as you size them from first day to 10 days that they are lot harder to size later on.. i have not found that casting types/ harness/ tiny deformities/ have caused much shooting problems.. i have shot quite a few one minute of angle or under groups from one hundred to two hundred yards this year with open (lawrwnce) sights with bullets with antimony in them. this is from a 500 grain round nose, with gas check, i leave the gas check off.. put two .060 vegi wads under it.. they love my 45-70..or vice versa.. . i have a spitzer mould that wont hold under 2 inches no matter what i do,.. with black powder the lighter bullets would not preform also.. so bullet design, weight,diameter, powder type and amount, number of vegitable card wads, number of groves lubed, and other factors are much more important than bullet hardness... i can see absolutly no difference in acccuracy between 20-1 and 30-1 in bullet hardness with good polished barrel.. .. i pick generally good bullets, not worring if they are pristene.. the base is the most important, with grouping weights together for testing.. good luck dave..

Ray Newman · « **Reply #6 on:** March 31, 2005, 11:07:05 AM »

fffffg: IÂ’ve seen the same or similar charts, but doesnÂ’t the the time farms to reach max. hardness depend upon the alloy content?

Some other threads on Â‘age hardeningÂ’:

Age Hardening/Softening of Cast Bullets?
http://www.assra.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=gd;action=display;num=1101363121

Lead alloy & age hardening

http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3701&highlight=

ribbonstone · « **Reply #7 on:** March 31, 2005, 12:31:40 PM »

IF the bullet is a good match to the bore (not needing the "bump up" for an undersized slug in an oversized bore) WW's have worked reasonably well. Not the finest accuracy, but not too far off the mark...good enough for practice sessions and general goofing off.

Heat threating (getting them up to high temperatures and suddenly qenching them) hardens them...letting them cool as slowly as possible (24-28) seems to bring them to a natural hardness level of about 9-11. Age won't change that bottom level...will change the ones that have been heat treated to the higest levels (they soften over time).

So...cast slower...let them cool a bit longer in the mold..and drop them on a padded surface to cool slowly.

To get them as soft as you can, reverse the heat-treating process into a kind of annealing process. Put one bullet into an oven on a cookie sheet...keep upping the temp. a bit at a time until the bullet starts to "slump" (partly melt). back the oven off 20degrees, adn put in all your WW bullets. Let them sit for about 1/2 hour...then turn the oven back 50degrees and wait 10 min...then another 50degrees and wiat another 10min. Once you get it doen to 250degrees, just rtun it off...don't open it...and leave them to cool to ambiant. thse will be as soft as is possible from WW's (between 8 and 11).

fffffg · « **Reply #8 on:** March 31, 2005, 06:05:38 PM »

im sure your right Ray.. i dont really know what is going on with the darn things, and i would do without antimony if i could get reasonably priced pure lead.. but i did find out that the noses of loaded bullets were bumping up on bullets that i loaded soon after casting, and the problem went away if i waited about 9 days..the charts i have showed the hardenss was up to about 75 percent or more at this time.. i reload by doing what works, alway have.. i found out that 15 grains of bullseye in a 38 special was too much when i was 14 years old and have been learning by hard knocks ever since..altho i verify my load in several manuals now.. i read the scale wrong.. three little knotches are 15 grains not three.. probably the hottest combat masterpiece ever shot in iowa.. dave..

Omaha Poke · « **Reply #9 on:** March 31, 2005, 08:11:19 PM »

swifty, buy yourself a good quality Bullet Hardness Tester. One of the best is the one made by Cabine Tree. With this unit you can not only test bullets, but ingots of alloy. While no method of testing alloy of unknown mix is perfect, testing for hardness will at least give you an idea of where you are in your search. I have about 900#'s of wheel weight alloy, mixed with a 20# tin babbit, and solder (50-50 bar solder) and lead sheathing from torn up telephone cable housing. I always test this for hardness before trying to cast any bullets with it, and try to alloy it to the hardness that I want.

WW today are not as predictable as those from years ago when I got mine. Be careful, and test for hardness with each pot of alloy you melt.

I also try to meld or mix my alloys to achieve the correct hardness. Randy

Ray Newman · « **Reply #10 on:** April 01, 2005, 05:59:55 AM »

IÂ’ve seen & handled a few lead bullet hardness testers over the years, but for my $$, the one offered by LBT is probably the easiest to use.

Read all 'bout it:

http://www.leverguns.com/lbt/hardness_tester.htm

The Poke is also right 'bout the composition of WW--'ya neva know' what's in them....

I might be a wee bit overly cautious, but I would think twice 'bout using an oven utilized for cooking purposes to heat treat lead or lead alloy bullets....