60 x 60 Air Rifle Sporter Record

[DanDeMan]

Good Day,

Last night the Sultan of 60, AKA Dennis Dadian, did it again.  He nailed a 60 x 60 using his Sporter Air Rifle at our monthly match.  Way to go "Dr D", that would be a PhD in Silhouette!  I believe it is the first 60 x 60 shot in the Sporter Class but since it was not a registered match the feat doesn't go down into the record books.  I guess that will have to wait until Winnsboro.  Nothing like putting a little pressure on the man.  But hey, what are "friends" for:-)  Yo DuckGumbo, you need to put some pressure on the man :wink: to fire up the competition :wink:  :wink:

Dennis was using one of the new LG300 Hunter "cheater guns" made by Walther.  The conditions were not quite excellent with the "Target Rifle" shooters having their pellets blown off rams and turkeys and at times even the pigs dodged the "bullet."

Hats off to the "Sultan of 60."

[9inarow]

Good shooting Dennis!  Wow, wish I was there just to watch it.

[Hornetx60]

Damn nice shootin, Thats why I ordered mine last week..it's a two class gun...If anyone is looking for one call Neal Stepp at ISS he has another one coming in.
Congratulations Dennis..
.Winnsboro is gonna have a lot of good shootin...Hope the weather cooperates

[Slowstdy]

Nice shooting Dennis. I got mine last week, shot it for the first time last night also. Guess mine is faulty, I only got 27 X 40…LOL.
Cheers Dave

[nomad]

That's as good as it gets!

[Medbill]

Dennis congrats on the outstanding score but your not kidding about it being a cheater gun.  How anyone can call an LG300 a sporter class gun with a straight face is kidding themselves.  Did the NRA actually approve that rifle or are guys using it because it has the word hunter written into its model name or is it the sling swivels that do it.  Geez come on guys.


Looks like NRA rifle is going the way of IHMSA production class.  Really sad and not fair to the guys that work their butts off shooting spring guns which everyone knows is a helluva lot harder than shooting an LG300 in any guise or any of the other precharge sporter guns out there like the AA S410, FX Tarantula, etc.  At least they have sporter stocks on them.


So I guess I can use my Mac-1 USFT in sporter class as well since it has a sling swivel on it?


Honestly Dennis, I don't know you and I would be the first one to shake your hand and congratulate you on your outstanding shooting but man IMHO this rule change is just wrong, nothing personal.  

Wake up NRA and ask for input before making rule changes like this!

Billy

[K2]

The term Sporter is a joke in the shooting sports world anymore.  Everyone knows there is a need for a low cost shooting sport but it always seems to turn into a money race.  

Silhouette has turned itself inside out over this sillyness and participation suffers as a result.  Great sport in concept but the execution has been a bit sloppy when it comes to reasonable rules, in the "stock, production, sporter, or whatever name it goes by" area of the games.  

Again this doesn't downgrade the shooting of the man but may be one of the reasons this particular match wasn't "official".  Fewer are willing to pay to play.

[Hornetx60]

There always has to be a few whiners. K2 and Medbill. Both of you should get your stories straight before speaking out of turn. K2 when they said it wasn't a registered match that only means that it wasn't a registered match but could have been a approved match. Match scores are not counted as records in approved matches only at Registered matches. That is why they made the distinction! Even if it was only a fun match it was some damn fine shootin so why in the hell would you try to step on another shooter like that?
Medbill How much actual silhouette shooting have you done? Have you even read the rule changes this year? That gun is perfectly legal in Sporter class. Some day you whiners will learn it isn't about the money race and it isn't about the guns and bells and whistles. It is about who is the best shooter! The best shooters can take any decent gun, sight it in and still win. So what you want is that shooters shouldn't be allowed to spend his or hers hard earned money on a gun with a few bells and whistles if they want to? Just because some people don't want to spend the money or they say they don't have the extra money...So what ! That isn't anyone else's fault.  Or the other excuse is they have a better gun. BS that is crap...You can win any of these matches with a inexpensive gun if you actually practice and not spend all of your time bitching. You want low cost..... quit being so childish and idealistic. K2 you want cheap guns then you shoot them and shut up and quit harrassing everyone in IHMSA and the NRA about your favorite pet peeve. My god just because IHMSA changed some rules that you didn't agree with you think the whole world came to an end. Grow up. If these two organizations are that bad and the rules are so poorly handled, just walk away... and start your own organization.....  that will show them!!!!   Bill Robinson

[cslcAl]

Nice shooting Dennis. I have been following this sporter issue and have come to the conculsion that I have a gun to shoot in all three classes. My Anschutz CA2002 with the scope mounted only weighs 10lb. 8 ozs. It is also very similar in appearance to the aformentioned Walther.
         Before you even ask why I would want to use a 10 meter slow poke for every class let me answer the question. MONEY  I bought my CA 2002 to shoot indoors in the winter, and to help my follow through problems. If I can use one gun for all three I'll save thousands of dollars. Besides I went to a state match a few years ago and got all kinds of flack for using a Target gun in the Open class; but I posted a higher score than most of the ones making fun of me.I am also not going to be an avid air rifle silhouette competitor, as I already shoot SB, HP, and Cowboy and there is only so much time one can devote to such silliness.
Al Foust

[Turkey Popper]

First,

I would like to congratulate Dennis on shooting 60 out of 60, that is truly outstanding.  

I have to agree with Medbill and K2.  I think the NRA really messed in their lunch kit on this one.  Putting sling swivels on the Walther 300 doesn’t any more make it a sporter than putting mud flaps on a Ferrari makes it an off road vehicle.  We now have an open class event and an open class event shot with a “sporter (open rifle with sling swivels) rifle.”  With the old sporter class (spring gun) there was a different set of skills that had to be mastered.  Now that is gone so we are minus one event and one set of skills.  I hope that the NRA will reverse themselves on this and go back to having the spring gun as the sporter class equipment.  I also hope that they don’t add a fourth event to bring back the spring gun.  We don’t need two open class events.

John B. Stokes (Turkey Popper)

[Medbill]

Hornet you said:

"There always has to be a few whiners. K2 and Medbill." "Medbill How much actual silhouette shooting have you done? Have you even read the rule changes this year? That gun is perfectly legal in Sporter class. Some day you whiners will learn it isn't about the money race and it isn't about the guns and bells and whistles. It is about who is the best shooter! The best shooters can take any decent gun, sight it in and still win. So what you want is that shooters shouldn't be allowed to spend his or hers hard earned money on a gun with a few bells and whistles if they want to? Just because some people don't want to spend the money or they say they don't have the extra money...So what ! That isn't anyone else's fault. Or the other excuse is they have a better gun. BS that is crap...You can win any of these matches with a inexpensive gun if you actually practice and not spend all of your time bitching. You want low cost..... quit being so childish and idealistic.

Your obviously full of keyboard courage today, insulting people without knowing the person your speaking too from the relative safety of your own home.  People that do that repulse me with their total lack of manners and respect for other people on the internet.  I've run into your kind before, all mouth on the net and all handshakes and smiles at a match.

I congratulated Dennis on his fine shooting, as I said in my post.  I didn't accuse him of cheating and yes I am aware that it wasn't an NRA sanctioned match.  Dan T coined the term "cheater" rifle, I used it sorry if it got your panties in a wad and if it upset you, I in no way meant to imply that Dennis cheated.  Fine shooting regardless of what kind of rifle he used and I'd love to watch him in person sometime, maybe I'd learn something.  I also don't care about the money spent on rifles.  I have plenty to go around myself and I can come up with one if need be from my airgun arsenal but I will still shoot my untuned HW-97 or TX-200.  

I have also SINCE read the rule change and using this type of rifle (Walther lg300 hunter :-D ) is obviously not in the spirit of the game.  Yeah thats what I would reach for when heading into the woods.  They are of course within the rules regardless of what I hope was the NRA's true intention.  Regardless do you not agree that as the rules stand now they totally trash the sporter class as we've known it?  All scores, ratings, hard work to earn are now out the window.  

HORNETx60, were you asked about this rule change as a competitor and NRA member or did you have anything to do with its implementation?  I'm curious to find out where did this come from?  Was it a club that pushed for it or maybe even some firearms manufacturers.  I find it funny that Walther would call that rifle a "Hunter".

In your reply to me you said stop being so childish and idealistic.  If standing up for what you believe in or care about is childish and idealistic in your book I honestly feel bad for you.  Your attempt at bullying me into silence will not work, sorry.

If I didn't say it before I'll say it now, it would be nice if organizations stopped watering down rules or change classifications to inflate egos of a vocal few so they can put another feather in their cap or bring in a few more bucks in for their organization or into their own personal pockets.  (IHMSA Production sight rule (vote :-D ) being a perfect example.  Since you brought up that rule change bring up all of it and not the parts that suit your argument.  The IHMSA vote was a bad joke and everyone knows it, if it were an honest organization that cared about a small group of shooters (air) a re-vote was clearly in order due to all the controversy.  They lost a few members over that one and they can't afford to keep losing members.

That's precisely the reason why my favorite silhouette game is BPCR which is growing every year one reason is because it hasn't be tainted, yet at least.  Oh and to answer another one of your other questions I've shot plenty of silhouette, thanks for asking.  I'm not a National Champion...yet but I'm no new guy behind a trigger either.  I didn't know a shooting resume was a prerequisite to commenting on a public post in this forum.  Are you the silhouette forum police or are you asking out of concern, maybe you want to be my coach?  

Its a game guy, I just hate seeing something I enjoy watered down and I call it as I see it.  Your advice to me and someone else with a dissenting view was to, "quit whining and practice more."  Part of the reason I am concerned about it is because of the time spent in practice by many of us shooting UNTUNED spring guns in the sporter class only to have it swept away with this rule change.  Can we have our spring guns tuned now or would that not be fair to the PCP guns?  Understand why someone might be upset by this rule change?  We can't tune our spring rifles but now I can shoot my Pro-Target or Steyr in it?  AHH YEAH that's really fair.

Sporter class can now be interpreted as a high power, factory PCP "match' rifle class with a weight limit.  Only thing separating it from OPEN is the weight.  That's BS.  It basically eliminates the spring guns such as the R-9's, HW-97's and TX-200's in the competition.  How many perfect scores have been turned in with them, how many will now with this rule change?  Quite a few I bet.

I'm going to quote a fellow silhouette shooter who summed it up perfectly in an email regarding this issue tonight.
"With firearms all powerplants are the same: smokeless powder.  So it stands to reason that stock shape and weight should be the determining factors in separating Hunter from Silhouette Classes.  But with airguns the powerplant determines the upper scores much more than the shape of the stock or even the weight.  I could take my Cyclone with it's hunter-style stock and blow away my own scores with even a target-stocked springer because of the technically superior nature of PCP vs. spring piston.  With firearms power plant is more or less a level playing field."
Well said and of course BPCR is different with blackpowder being the only propellant allowed.

Hornet I don't know you and you don't know me.  You might be a great guy as well as a great shooter and we got off on the wrong foot.  Odds are one of these days we're gonna cross paths and be on the line together.  I'd like to be able to look you in the eye, shake your hand and wish you good luck and mean it.  You don't have to agree with what I say or do, if you don't like me or my posts don't read em.  From now on though please keep your personal insults to yourself because I find them rude and insulting.

Billy Lo

New York

[Hornetx60]

Medbill, No keyboard courage here! I will say in person exactly the same thing I type here. That is why when I type something controversial I always sign my real name.  Now if you will go back and read my last post you will understand that most of it was directed to K2 who is really a guy from IHMSA who has been on his soap box over the money issue for over a year. Ever since IHMSA changed some rules on the air pistols. Times change and so do rules some people are always going to be against it. There is nothing unfair about the change in the rules. Everyone has the same option to go out and buy a pcp that fits the sporter class or keep shooting their spring gun. But anyone that chooses to continue shooting a springer in a class that allows PCP's knowingly does not have the right to call it unfair just because they choose not to buy the other gun.    How many shooters would go out and buy a spring gun to shoot against the open guns? Right not many if anyand if anyone would choose to do this would that give them the right to call the other guns unfair. The bottom line is the rules are changed.Deal with it. I didn't like the idea of the rule being changed either but I sure as hell am not going to handicap myself by buying a springer to run against the PCP's. And no I didn't have anything to do with the sporter rule being changed. Call Greg Connors and he can give you the whole story.

[nomad]

Medbill,

The change was well-intentioned but poorly thought out.

The NRA liason with the 4H clubs -- an NRA employee name of Venskoskie -- proposed the change in order to get the kids' cheap Daisy(?) rifles permitted in sporter class. It was a worthless endeavor, since those rifles aren't competitive as sporters anyway...and they were already OK in Open class. (They would, frankly, have the same value in Open as they have in Sporter -- none!)

The problems are twofold:

1. A rule change proposal from someone who has no direct connection with silhouette -- and who doesn't compete in or understand the game -- was considered by the committee. (IMO that should NEVER happen -- unless there's a safety issue involved only active silhouette competitors should be permitted to propose rules affecting silhouette competition.)

And

2. No one on the committee shoots airgun (therefore, none of THEM understood the problems they were about to create) and, in their infinite wisdom, they didn't ask for input from any airgun match director or competitor who could have helped them.

FWIW, I don't like the WAY the rule was changed but I'm of the opinion that it will be good for the class in the long run -- there are people who can't handle the heavy cocking force of the springers and, let's face it, springers are old technology that's on the way out. Like casting a fly or hand-cranking an old car it's a neat art but not very necessary in the face of advancing technology.

That said, I agree completely that people who worked hard to set the old standards with springers are getting a bad deal.

[Medbill]

"Medbill, No keyboard courage here! I will say in person exactly the same thing I type here. That is why when I type something controversial I always sign my real name. Now if you will go back and read my last post you will understand that most of it was directed to K2"

So be it, you insult me and plan on doing it to my face, your a class act looking forward to meeting you.  I don't care who "most" of your insults were directed at.  I'm not your whipping post and don't react well to insults in person or online.

"Ever since IHMSA changed some rules on the air pistols." You mean the rule change that now gives the shooters the option to take a Production class, inexpensive airgun that was meant to be an entry level class and slap on a set of sights that cost more than the gun itself that only one guys makes?  You see nothing wrong with that?  Then screw up on the dates of the vote and stop counting them when they have what they need while they still have a pile come in before the published cut off date?  That deal? I am well aware of that BS and that too was flat wrong.

"There is nothing unfair about the change in the rules."  Your contradicting yourself, "but I sure as hell am not going to handicap myself by buying a springer to run against the PCP's".

The bottom line is the rules are changed.Deal with it. I didn't like the idea of the rule being changed either but I sure as hell am not going to handicap myself by buying a springer to run against the PCP's.  

So you agree with me in being against the change.  You choose to buy a rifle and shoot within the new rules as you interpret them.  Its what the NRA does that matters to me and I hope they reverse this dumba$$ rule change ASAP.  I'll be making a phone call to follow up the email I've already sent in to them.  Thanks for the name of who to call.

If it does get reversed don't get upset, you'll still be able to use your rifle for hunting or as a backup open class rifle.   :wink:

Billy Lo

[nomad]

Actually, thinking about the sporter records as they stood before the rule change, I wonder how practical it would be to cap the old records in order to show that those set with springers were earned while dealing with a different level of difficulty?

I see no reason why it shouldn't be possible to move on from here...

Maybe I'll call GC with that on Monday and ruin another day for him!  

[DanDeMan]

Gentlemen,

My intent in posting about Dennis' remarkable accomplishment was not to cause a firestorm, but that is what seems to have happened.  The use of the term "cheater gun" is a Texas term for a tricked-out, but legal and very accurate rifle.  The term was used with tongue firmly planted in cheek.  It was not meant in anyway to diminish Dennis' accomplishment of shooting a 60 x 60.

The LG300 Hunter has been cleared by the NRA as legal for Air Rifle Silhouette Sporter Class.  I know the person that made the call.

Next, if you think the rule change is inappropriate the NRA Silhouette Committee should absorb your concern, not others on this sight.

To the best of my knowledge the rule change was initiated by a NRA Headquarters employee that did not know how his rule change request would affect the Sporter Class.  He does not even shoot silhouette.  But, the Silhouette Committee OK'ed his rule change request none the less.

Please, let's not attach each other over this issue.  I certainly understand both sides of the issue, but attacking each other is not constructive, as we all well know.  The focus of your displease should be directed at the Silhouette Committee members that OK'ed the change with no input from any Air Rifle Silhouette match directors or shooters.  None of the committee members shoot Air Rifle Silhouette. For allowing the change they should be taken to task if you think it appropriate.

[Aus]

We got past the problem in Australia - we only have one class.

[nomad]

Low?
Sorry, but if you lead with your chin like that... :-D

[Medbill]

Nomad,

Thank you for the story behind the scenes.  I figured it was done with good intentions and once I read it I knew it was done by the unenlightened.  It isn't anything that can't be fixed though.  It's just a bummer it has to happen the year they choose to consider holding a National's again nothing like starting the year off with controversial rule change!

I don't agree with it being any better for the sport.  New shooters aren't going to be attracted because of this one rule change.  If they aren't here already they ain't gonna be because of it alone.  All it does is get rid of a class of rifles that are the most challenging air rifles to master.  I compare them to shooting a flintlock only harder.  

NRA IF YOUR LISTENING...Why not add a true PCP powered sporter class.  Now that might be a different story and open up and attract some new shooters that will allow them to be quite competitive with a relatively inexpensive precharge rifle using one many airgunners already have for pests and plinking such as the S200, AA400 series, FX rifles and on and on.  They fall very short of the open class, heavy race guns and its a class that would be nice to have.  Rifles would be easily distinguished by stock design restrictions and weight similar to firearms classes since it has the open class to compare itself too.

While we're at it how about the same deal for spring guns.  Have match spring powered rifle and hunter spring powered rifle.  Guys could shoot with a inexpensive untuned CZ-630, R7, R9 up to a tx200 or 97 in spring gun sporter class.  Then for spring gun open class allow tuned rifles with or without match stocks.  There's a total of three more classifications to bring in more money for the clubs, NRA and more classifications or types of rifles for silhouette shooters to master.  Sounds like a win win to me for everyone but then again nobody asked for my opinion or anyone elses for that matter apparently.

FYI: Did you know the head instructor of the US Army's Sniper program recommends his snipers to buy quality spring powered air rifles to train on because they require such consistency to shoot accurately and are outstanding indoor and outdoor practice.  Hardly a class of rifles worth throwing away if you ask me.  

Thanks for the reply!  

Billy Lo

[RobbW]

Well I also think the rule change is unfortunate.  Seems they had good intentions but ultimately made an uninformed choice.  I'm the guy that wrote Billy about airgun powerplants making more of a difference than the shape of the stock or the weight.  I have more airguns than I care to count and shoot in all 3 Classes, plus could shoot in all the classes they could ever care to develop.

For me, Sporter class is about developing shooting skill in one of the most difficult long guns to shoot.  I enjoy the challenge of hold sensitivity and an extremely long lock/shoot time.  I won't call a PCP shooter in that class a cheater.  The class clearly allows it and I wouldn't take anything away from and Sporter PCPs accomplishments in that class.  I think it's great that there are people that can shoot that well.  

I'll continue to shoot spring-piston in Sporter class because I want to develop my shooting discipline, but I won't begrudge anyone who wants to shoot anything else that is legal in that class.

I also won't be sad if the NRA reverts back to spring piston and CO2 in next year's rules.  It's a well defined, logical way of breaking up the powerplants.  I shoot just as well with my FX Cyclone as I do with my ZM Steyr LG100.

[nomad]

Medbill,

Please understand that I'm NOT suggesting that the change will attract new shooters. I AM suggesting that people who are already involved in the game -- but who have avoided sporter for various reasons -- might now compete in it. (Talk to Zander for one. My wife -- who can't handle the cocking forces associated with heavy springers -- is another. There are plenty more.)

As for 'fixing' the change, IMO that would be a bad idea. The game's been through the: "Surprise! We're gonna RE-change LAST year's change and all the money you've spent on what you just bought THIS year is a waste." It just causes hard feelings. Ask anyone about chin guns...

And the issue of adding classes is NOT one that any match director is going to want to address. It's already tough to break down a match when you're dealing with 3 classes and 6 potential classifications in each class! If your suggestion were to be accepted, I know at least one match director who would immediately give the pleasure of running matches to someone else.
Hint: His name is VERY similar to mine! :-)

You're right about the skill thing but many competitors just don't want to work on that particular skill.

I see your position but IMO this thing is a fait-accompli and we should probably accept it and move the game onward without any more rancor.

Also I can't get all that excited about the comment from the sniper guy. I think Zander's right when he says: "Any gun that tries to run away from you when you pull the trigger is mostly good only for teaching you to shoot that particular type of gun." And sniping isn't much like silhouette.
'Nother hint: BTDT   :eek:

[Medbill]

Dan T,

Your totally correct and my apologies for hijacking this thread.  I should have started a new one but when I saw what an LG300 "HUNTER" looked like I almost choked and I just replied.  Had I thought about it longer I would have started a new one.

Billy

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Nomad,

I understand what your saying now, thanks.  Basically in your own words this rule change is good because now opens up Sporter Class to people that are too undisciplined to learn how to shoot them well or cannot physically do so.  Well there are weaker powerplants and lighter rifles that are easy to cock that can get the job done well enough.  Right now I can't shoot in the class myself due to injury.  Does that mean highpower and BPCR should allow me to use an AR-15 space gun because I can't take any recoil?  No it means tough luck, I can't shoot that game or in that class, period, end of story.  Maybe that's why there are so many classes for us to pick from?  

In all seriousness I'm against adding more classes as well unless there was something specifically geared for kids.  Maybe have the distances reduced or something.  My comments about adding classes was just a suggestion if in fact what they really wanted to do was to add sporter pcp's.  

Shoot a spring gun well and you can shoot any gun well, especially when your firing ammo through a suppressor.  "The Sniper Guy", happens to be a friend of mine, a Ranger with the rank of Major and former assistant shooting coach to the West Point rifle team who was transferred overseas not to long ago.  Did you hear how well they did in competition this year?  Heres the link if you'd like to read about it.  I'm only adding this so you don't think its some guy at the range making a passing comment and calling himself a sniper.  I am well aware of the fact that sniping isn't much like silhouette.    http://goarmysports.collegesports.com/sports/c-rifle/spec-rel/031405aad.html

You say changing it back wouldn't be a good thing but its ok that this change was dropped on us out of no where but to undo it would be wrong because it suits some people.  So far everyone said they were against the change initially but now that they realize what they can use as equipment they are all for it so they can get a better score in Sporter the easy way.  Who cares about the guys that have been shooting spring guns all these years along with their ratings and records that they worked so hard to earn.  Why haven't the scores been changed in regards to the classifications?  Lets just be honest about it guys this new rule change makes getting a high rating in Sporter Class a relative cake walk now.

I'm done if I want to rant about this again I'll start a new thread on it.  Anyone that wants to continue discussing this like a gentlemen without the childish name calling feel free to email me.

Billy Lo

[K2]

Hi Bill

Like I said in my post a 60 is fine shooting.  Like you said in your post a LG300 is good enough to shoot in both "classes" so by deduction it really is a top of the line Standard Target rifle that happens to "qualify" as a "Sporter" under the new rules.  When you can dump $2500 or more into a sporter gun it isn't going to attract many new folks to the game.  Dan De Man called the gun a cheater gun.  Everyone knows it isn't a "sporter" by any real life definition.  To my way of thinking it is the same as the so called new "records" in many sports such as baseball that wouldn't exist were it not for Steroids or Blood doping etc.  They just don't mean much anymore.  

Silhouette is now and has been for some time been a money race and that is fine for those who like that sort of thing, but it will never achieve much popularity if that stays the case.  That is the number 1 reason the IHMSA is fading away, just not enough folks are interested in their "rules" formula.  

Again hats off to anyone who can stand up and shoot 60 targets in a row, the man is better than I am that is certain.

Registered matches cost more than approved and with small turn outs many just can't make the cut.  Local matches are getting pretty small which is a problem that should be addressed if the shooting sports want to survive.  

There always has to be a few whiners. K2 and Medbill. Both of you should get your stories straight before speaking out of turn. K2 when they said it wasn't a registered match that only means that it wasn't a registered match but could have been a approved match. Match scores are not counted as records in approved matches only at Registered matches. That is why they made the distinction! Even if it was only a fun match it was some damn fine shootin so why in the hell would you try to step on another shooter like that?
Medbill How much actual silhouette shooting have you done? Have you even read the rule changes this year? That gun is perfectly legal in Sporter class. Some day you whiners will learn it isn't about the money race and it isn't about the guns and bells and whistles. It is about who is the best shooter! The best shooters can take any decent gun, sight it in and still win. So what you want is that shooters shouldn't be allowed to spend his or hers hard earned money on a gun with a few bells and whistles if they want to? Just because some people don't want to spend the money or they say they don't have the extra money...So what ! That isn't anyone else's fault.  Or the other excuse is they have a better gun. BS that is crap...You can win any of these matches with a inexpensive gun if you actually practice and not spend all of your time bitching. You want low cost..... quit being so childish and idealistic. K2 you want cheap guns then you shoot them and shut up and quit harrassing everyone in IHMSA and the NRA about your favorite pet peeve. My god just because IHMSA changed some rules that you didn't agree with you think the whole world came to an end. Grow up. If these two organizations are that bad and the rules are so poorly handled, just walk away... and start your own organization.....  that will show them!!!!   Bill Robinson

[K2]

Hi Bill

Since the IHMSA changed the air rules to turn a production class into a custom class the air game has just about totally died out. (I predict you are going to see the same trend in air rifle with the new rules)  Entries and membership continue to decline as the cost and what is allowed in "production" continue to increase.  Very few will spend what it takes to play in the sporter games today.  Some will of course but they will tend to be over 50 on average, you just won't get many families.  IHMSA took a growing low cost game and in short order killed it off.  The NRA's ap game never achieved much popularity for the same reason, which is why I made the AIR production class affordable when I wrote the original rules that worked great.  We still shoot lots of Silhouette locally but no longer send in memberships or sanction fees.  We stick with simpler rules and low cost equipment and have lots of fun which is where it is at for our local shooters.  IHMSA has an Edsel on their hands, lots of chrome,  bells, and whistles, but no buyers.  Why bother?

FYI with our retro rules at our local matches we are getting shooters back into the game that left the IHMSA 15+ years ago.

 

Medbill, No keyboard courage here! I will say in person exactly the same thing I type here. That is why when I type something controversial I always sign my real name.  Now if you will go back and read my last post you will understand that most of it was directed to K2 who is really a guy from IHMSA who has been on his soap box over the money issue for over a year. Ever since IHMSA changed some rules on the air pistols. Times change and so do rules some people are always going to be against it. There is nothing unfair about the change in the rules. Everyone has the same option to go out and buy a pcp that fits the sporter class or keep shooting their spring gun. But anyone that chooses to continue shooting a springer in a class that allows PCP's knowingly does not have the right to call it unfair just because they choose not to buy the other gun.    How many shooters would go out and buy a spring gun to shoot against the open guns? Right not many if anyand if anyone would choose to do this would that give them the right to call the other guns unfair. The bottom line is the rules are changed.Deal with it. I didn't like the idea of the rule being changed either but I sure as hell am not going to handicap myself by buying a springer to run against the PCP's. And no I didn't have anything to do with the sporter rule being changed. Call Greg Connors and he can give you the whole story.

[nomad]

Billy,

Don't misunderstand me -- there's nothing wrong with Rangers; the Army can always use more self-propelled bullet absorbers...when there aren't any jarheads around. Besides, SF has to have someplace to send the ones who couldn't make it in group! ;-)
(Let's let that one alone. Those of us who have done it feel free to joke about it among ourselves. [And it's usually just joking -- people who've been there recognize and respect others who have, no matter what uniform they wear. It's generally the beerhall commandos who want to talk about who's the toughest.] In all honesty. however, the same comments from those with friends who've done it ring a bit hollow.)

Returning to silhouette, sarcasm won't get it done. If you start changing rules annually (forward OR backward) you just alienate more competitors. There needs to be continuity.

It's wasn't necessary (or a particularly good idea) to change the rule but I think most of us are coming to think that the new version isn't really bad (and, as I said, it opens doors that have been closed) but it was VERY badly implemented. And it points to a weakness in the system that, unchecked, will generate more, similar, problems. That needs to be corrected.

We moved on to pcp target guns when they became state-of-the-art and we'll now move on to pcp sporters. More important, we need to move on to an improved system that won't suffer this sort of cluster**** in the future.

[K2]

Hi Nomad

I have read many of your posts and have a lot of respect for your opinion.  

Getting current silhouetters to shoot more classes is a dwindling proposition compared to getting new members.  IHMSA did this and they are dying out.  Not enough people to put on many local matches.  You are much better off with more shooters shooting fewer entries apiece than you are with a few shooters shooting lots of entries apiece.  

A sure sign of problems ahead for any sport is when they start talking about entries fired at an event and not how many people showed up.  

What the sports are lacking is leadership with backbone.  

Medbill,

Please understand that I'm NOT suggesting that the change will attract new shooters. I AM suggesting that people who are already involved in the game -- but who have avoided sporter for various reasons -- might now compete in it. (Talk to Zander for one. My wife -- who can't handle the cocking forces associated with heavy springers -- is another. There are plenty more.)

As for 'fixing' the change, IMO that would be a bad idea. The game's been through the: "Surprise! We're gonna RE-change LAST year's change and all the money you've spent on what you just bought THIS year is a waste." It just causes hard feelings. Ask anyone about chin guns...

And the issue of adding classes is NOT one that any match director is going to want to address. It's already tough to break down a match when you're dealing with 3 classes and 6 potential classifications in each class! If your suggestion were to be accepted, I know at least one match director who would immediately give the pleasure of running matches to someone else.
Hint: His name is VERY similar to mine! :-)

You're right about the skill thing but many competitors just don't want to work on that particular skill.

I see your position but IMO this thing is a fait-accompli and we should probably accept it and move the game onward without any more rancor.

Also I can't get all that excited about the comment from the sniper guy. I think Zander's right when he says: "Any gun that tries to run away from you when you pull the trigger is mostly good only for teaching you to shoot that particular type of gun." And sniping isn't much like silhouette.
'Nother hint: BTDT   :eek:

[K2]

Hi Dan

That is a very interesting comment as this is exactly how the IHMSA changed their air sporter rules (called production) the only air gun shooter on the committee voted no and when I talked to several who voted to relax the rules they told me they really didn't understand what they were voting on.  This is a great way to make rules ;~)

On the term cheater gun their is more to it than just tongue in cheek, everyone knows that.  The man that said putting mud flaps on a Ferarri doesn't make it an off road vehicle hit the nail squarely on the head.  

Most shooters I talk to that avoid santioned shooting do so over this type of thing.  (these are good shooters not just ammo burners)  They like to shoot but don't like changing rules or the money races that it creates.  

Gentlemen,

My intent in posting about Dennis' remarkable accomplishment was not to cause a firestorm, but that is what seems to have happened.  The use of the term "cheater gun" is a Texas term for a tricked-out, but legal and very accurate rifle.  The term was used with tongue firmly planted in cheek.  It was not meant in anyway to diminish Dennis' accomplishment of shooting a 60 x 60.

The LG300 Hunter has been cleared by the NRA as legal for Air Rifle Silhouette Sporter Class.  I know the person that made the call.

Next, if you think the rule change is inappropriate the NRA Silhouette Committee should absorb your concern, not others on this sight.

To the best of my knowledge the rule change was initiated by a NRA Headquarters employee that did not know how his rule change request would affect the Sporter Class.  He does not even shoot silhouette.  But, the Silhouette Committee OK'ed his rule change request none the less.

Please, let's not attach each other over this issue.  I certainly understand both sides of the issue, but attacking each other is not constructive, as we all well know.  The focus of your displease should be directed at the Silhouette Committee members that OK'ed the change with no input from any Air Rifle Silhouette match directors or shooters.  None of the committee members shoot Air Rifle Silhouette. For allowing the change they should be taken to task if you think it appropriate.

[Medbill]

Nomad,

Oh I forgot to mention he's a Texan too.  :-)  I don't hold that against him though, I still let him in the front door.  

I wasn't trying to be sarcastic in my reply, sorry if it sounded that way. I was applying examples of what you said as your reasons why the change is good and if valid why not use them for other classes/disciplines as well?  The rational behind how it is being interpreted really doesn't hold water IMHO, sorry.  We simply have a lighter weight open class and sporter is history.  All this without a single match director or dues paying member brought into the decision making process. Something needs to be fixed for sure.

My brother and I are planning on hosting a couple of air silhouette fun matches this year in southern NY and if it goes well we might look into getting hooked up with the NRA.  Its a fun game and I enjoy the hell out of hearing the ring and seeing those critters fly along with all the laughs.  We're hoping to do both pistol and rifle and for sure we'll do it the "old fashioned way".

Best of luck and no hard feelings,

Billy

Don't misunderstand me -- there's nothing wrong with Rangers; the Army can always use more self-propelled bullet absorbers...when there aren't any jarheads around. Besides, SF has to have someplace to send the ones who couldn't make it in group!  
(Let's let that one alone. Those of us who have done it feel free to joke about it among ourselves. [And it's usually just joking -- people who've been there recognize and respect others who have, no matter what uniform they wear. It's generally the beerhall commandos who want to talk about who's the toughest.] In all honesty. however, the same comments from those with friends who've done it ring a bit hollow.)

Returning to silhouette, sarcasm won't get it done. If you start changing rules annually (forward OR backward) you just alienate more competitors. There needs to be continuity.

[RamSlammer]

OK Every one I'm with Aus on tis one. Here in Australia our new rule book comes this year (it is renewed every 5 years) and in it there is now one class for air,it reads"Any air rifle, any calibre, with a maximum weight of 7kg (15 pound 6.913 ounces) including sights, that is completely self contained at the time of firing." , how simple is that! The rules as stated are revised every 5 years, this is done basically by the shooters themselves through their delegates. Through out this post there is mention of "spirit of the competition" in any competition the rules will be streached ( release triggers on shotguns and 20+ power scopes on "hunting guns" for example) but somethings are a natural progression/evolution. Pre charge is one of them just as smokeless powder was 100+ years ago. I am probably the worst shot in Aus but I own a "pcp" as they are easier to use. What we all need to keep sight of is that we started shooting because it was FUN, I don't beleive that anyone would be conceited enough to say they started shooting to win prizes! I would like to say that we should not be arguing and insulting eachother on this site as #1 It is a public forum and it is no place to act in this way #2 As shooters we need to stick together and be mates because there is enough people out there against us with out us arguing with in ourselves. Lets get on with the buisness of shooting and have a good time!!!!!!!!

[nomad]

David,

Are you implying that there's someone somewhere who doesn't think highly of Texans? (Jealousy is a terrible thing...) :-D