Author Topic: Neck Sizing 243's (Read 812 times)

rmtaylor · « **on:** April 05, 2005, 04:28:29 PM »

I tried neck sizing in my 223 and though they shot well I had a lot of trouble with stuck cases. Should I expect the same with the 243? Has anyone tried it?

Thanks,

Richard

mt3030 · « **Reply #1 on:** April 05, 2005, 05:50:19 PM »

Due to the weak extractor/ejector design of the Handi's, I've always full length resized. Why borrow trouble? I've had even factory loads stick in 223, 243, and 308. Neck sized cases would be even more prone to give you problems. But, each rifle is different, and your 243 might tolerate them fine. Nothing lost in trying it.
Wally

Fred M · « **Reply #2 on:** April 05, 2005, 05:59:29 PM »

Richard.
You can try it but I advise against it. You need a constant 0.002 or 3 thou head space to get reliable chambering and with it you get good accuracy and good ejection. Neck sizing will not set the shoulder back. Your brass will grow with each loading after about eight to 10 reloads you need to start with new brass or else you be looking at case head serperation. I got 8 reloads from the 25-06 the 243 operates at the same pressure.

I don't know about the 223 never loaded them.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #3 on:** April 05, 2005, 07:59:10 PM »

I beg to differ with those who advise against neck sizing for the Handi...I neck size ALL of my cases for my Handi's...and I have never had but 2 stuck cases out of several hundred reloads...and the 2 stuck cases was in my 35 Whelen,,,,and that was my own fault... I pulled the bullets and reduced the powder charge by 2 grains...no more stuck cases. Now if you are loading for different guns...then I will tell you to clearly keep your necksized ammo away from your fullsized ammo...you don't want to mix them..... I neck size for the 25-06...270...308...30-06...and 35 Whelen and have necked sized for the 30-30 in the past.and for ANY rifles I'll reload for in the future..the naysayers can say what they will...but if your having problems with stuck cases...you can either have your dies set up wrong and pushing the shoulder back...your chamber be out of dimension or needing polished...too much head space and overexpansion....lubricant still on the cases allowing them to move and overexpand...and if you have too large a gap between the barrel and receiver and any lubricant in the chamber they will stick..or...your just loading them too hot...or a combination of all 6...the gap between the receiver and barrel of mine are tight...I cannot pull a .0015" feeler gauge out once the action is closed on it...and it is very difficult to close on a .002" gauge...this has always worked best for me and those I reload for...

If you still don't want to neck size...or are leery of doing so,,,the Barnes #3 reloading manual...has a excellent chapter for reloading and tells you how to reload for accuracy with full lenght dies.. I use both methods and have had great success with them..I highly recommend picking up a copy and at least reading it....I have been reloading for longer than I care to admit...and it's been for the bulk of my 50 years...and some of my earliest memories was at my fathers work bench where he built rifles and reloaded...he taught me how to reload to gain the most consistant accuracy out of my rifles...and I continue today using what he taught me so long ago...only accurate rifles are truely interesting...

Mac

bajabill · « **Reply #4 on:** April 06, 2005, 04:19:37 AM »

So, what would explain roughly 20-30 percent of fired brass not allowing the action to close upon attempting to re-chamber. This is what I run into with my 243. Those that dont allow closing are obviously protruding out the back end, I have to push them into the chamber before trying to close the action.

I guess is to go with Fred's explanation on this example. But, I recommend trying neck sizing on your particular gun, its certainly worth a try.

here is a thread that will save me some typing

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=52060&highlight=

Fred M · « **Reply #5 on:** April 06, 2005, 06:52:20 AM »

A few things I do that most people not do.
Compare the fired case to the full sized case. Most dies over size the shoulders. Some size as much as 0.008" at the shoulder. I polish the die
until it sizes no more than 0.003".

A also do minimal outside neck reaming to about 75% of the perimeter of the neck.

Always make a chamber cast to find out how long the neck is and when I have to trim. A 0.010"to 0.020 longer neck is about standard. I trim cases 0.005 less chamber length. No need to trim cases before they get to that length.
For sure you don't want them longer than the chamber. That is bad news.

I set up this die to size with 0.002" head space, in hunting rifles and 0.001" in target bolt action rifles. Note: I have a set of 5 Redding competition shell holder that can vary the length up to 0.010" or the die can be shortened one or two thou.

I also uniform the flasholes and deburr the inside of the flashhole and cut all the primer pockets to a uniform depth.

I use a bore scope to check the inside of a multible used case to seee if case seperation is evident. With a wire hook you can do that too but by the time you can feel thinning of the web it is already hight time.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #6 on:** April 06, 2005, 07:22:26 AM »

Bajabill:

Did you ever get around to making a chamber cast of your Handi?...I would...just to see the dimensions of it...if it's as tight as you say...then SS response could be a good cause of your cases not allowing the action to close.. another thing if the chamber is on the tight side all over...you might actually have to go to small base dies to get back to the new unfired specs....I'm curious about your rifle though...I went back and reread your original post again...you stated

Quote

Also, I OS neck turned some pieces and after firing I can slip/push a bullet into the neck. Before I could not without some mechanical advantage such as a press. So I have a tight chamber I guess in the neck region and will have to OS neck turn the rest of my brass pile. This is a 243.

I'm assuming you have...but what is the measurements of your cases at the neck before and after firing? Is this with various brands of brass or different lots of brass that you cannot easily slide a bullet into a fired case...on a tight neck chamber..even after OS neck turning...there should be some resistance to doing that...or your turning them too much...also...on your 20-30% of cases that won't rechamber...are these freshly fired cases...or.. cases your attempting to recamber that are just neck sized?...If they are neck sized cases...then try this...index your cases before firing them...make a mark on them say at 12 o-clock...then after firing them...rotate them to say 3 o-clock...6 o-clock...9 o-clock...and then back to 12 o-clock...do they all fit back into your chamber?

...if they don't then you might have what " Paul" at Sierra bullet company told me...it might be a double whammey...meaning you could have a tight neck...but your chamber is slightly egg shaped...if they do all fit...then it is a good chance it's your brass...you should give him a call...they are open from 8am-8pm CST...and the call is free...1-800-223-8799...He also told me that you don't want to continually take to much off the neck...you will will shorten the life of the brass....

Mac

Mac11700 · « **Reply #7 on:** April 06, 2005, 07:30:32 AM »

Bajabill:

Sorry for sounding reduntant...I was on the phone with Paul at Sierra when I was typing my last post....

Quote

I also uniform the flasholes and deburr the inside of the flashhole and cut all the primer pockets to a uniform depth.

Fred...this is one thing that is so easily done...that most don't ...that makes a big difference...when using various types or lots of brass... :agree:

Mac

bajabill · « **Reply #8 on:** April 06, 2005, 09:18:35 AM »

I havent gotten a chamber mold. I have been toying with other guns primarily.

I have however, completed OS neck turning for this gun. After fireing, I can slip a bullet into the neck easily. Also, it is fresh fired brass that impedes action closing - these are the ones I label - FL size required. After FL sizing there is no problem. The neck turned, then fired, then neck sized brass (those that would re-chamber) have excelent neck runout so I dont think I have a cylindrical problem with the chamber. I will check a couple for easier chambering while clocking the orientation though. Actually, this is the gun I am planning on messing with next. So little time, to many toys.

Fred M · « **Reply #9 on:** April 06, 2005, 09:30:54 AM »

bajabill
The 243 is notorious for flowing brass into the neck and shoulder junction and thickening the case neck walls. That is why you want to outside neck ream.

The chamber neck in a 243 is supposed to be 0.277 at the chamber mouth and 278.3 at the neck and shoulder junction. Also the neck length on a case is 0.240 the the chamber neck length is 0.258. So you have lots of trim lee way. But you need to know what you got.

Chech these dimension on a loaded case and a fired case and see how they compare. If the neck junction is too big you can't use that case until it is brought back to spec.

Woodbutcher · « **Reply #10 on:** April 06, 2005, 01:48:06 PM »

Dear Fred:
Thank you for your comments. VERY helpful! Greatly appreciated!
Woodbutcher

rmtaylor · « **Reply #11 on:** April 06, 2005, 02:29:00 PM »

Thanks for all the info. I had planned to try both methods to test results. Fred I have a digital caliper and a digital micrometer but I have to expand my education on how to take the measurements properly.

Right now I have adjust the full length die and the collet per the factory directions and always check the brass length after resizing either way and trim if necessary.

So far in my 223 and in the 270 I have had to FL resize to prevent sticking. Although I should revisit this on the 270 because I was trying to go way too hot before, thought most speed was the most important.

Now I have gone the complete opposite direction. I am trying to find the lowest velocity that will stabilize a bullet.

Thanks again for the info. As always you guys are a wealth of Knowledge and as always there is never the "best" way. That is what makes this hobby so much fun.

Richard

bajabill · « **Reply #12 on:** April 07, 2005, 04:28:05 AM »

Stoney point makes some simple tools for measuring cartridge headspace and bullet seating length. They are inexpensive and simple in design - Just like Lee equipment :oops:

Ricci Price · « **Reply #13 on:** April 07, 2005, 05:46:53 AM »

I think one reason for case streching is lock-up, try full length sizing a case, load it and shoot it, but don't extract it, now take reading with a feeler gauge between barrel and standing breech face, if there is a gap of more than what was there before you shot it, you have found it, poor lock-up.Fred has said it and I have said it "Lock-up is everything". rebuilt my lug not long ago just because of this reason. It also ,among other things, affects accuracy.

borg1 · « **Reply #14 on:** April 08, 2005, 07:05:18 AM »

I neck size exclusively for my handi. Sometimes the action does not lock up on the first closing so i try again and it locks up tight. I've never had more than 2 or 3 stuck cases. I never forget to bring my cleaning rod to the range, so i never have a problem...

I can see Fred's point about shoulder issues. Keep an eye on your cases, plus it never hurts to have the full length die nearby if you need to go that route. Trimming and neck turning can salvage plenty of cases...

rmtaylor · « **Reply #15 on:** April 10, 2005, 03:43:35 PM »

Bill,

I have the Stoney Pointe OAL gauge and the comparitors. I will check on the headspase gauges. thanks,

Richars