Author Topic: 7x57 (Read 1357 times)

mt3030 · « **on:** April 05, 2005, 06:13:18 PM »

Finally found a Handi Ultra 7x57. (MSP Ret: Now I can quit trying to talk you out of yours!). Took almost a year, but found one in a hardware store in Wisconsin. The rifle looks like new, but the previous owner had taken the stocks off, so now I'm looking for wood. If anyone has extra (or not extra) laminated stocks to sell, let me know. I can always just order blond or camo from NEF, but I would really like to find a set of the gray or any other color that have been available in the past. Also need some loading advice. When shooting your 7x57s, have you noticed any preference in bullet weight? From readings Fred's postings, I know to use as slow a powder as possible. Thank you.
Wally

EVOC ONE · « **Reply #1 on:** April 06, 2005, 02:54:42 AM »

Congratulations on locating a 7X57. The 7X57 sits on top of my list of "must have" Handi's. In my efforts to locate one I have found just about every other Handi caliber on my list (keeps expanding, though), but not the elusive 7X57. Your find provides me with a renewed excitement. Enjoy!

If any you kind, considerate, resourceful, wonderful, willing to help a fellow Handi-holic, folks should come across a 7X57 (that's available) I would be very grateful if you would let me know.

EVOC ONE

bajabill · « **Reply #2 on:** April 06, 2005, 04:10:44 AM »

when was this one offered, I only go back to the time when the 7x63? branneke was offered.

EVOC ONE · « **Reply #3 on:** April 06, 2005, 05:07:36 AM »

I honestly don't know when the 7X57 was offered. Although I've owned H&R/NEF shotguns for years, I bought my first Handi in 2003. I learned alot about what calibers have been offered when I discovered this site last fall.

A while back someone posted that NEF may be considering the possibilities of introducing the .303 British ans 7.62X54 Russian. Both would be great. The Russian ammo is cheap and plentiful. The .303 is not as inexpensive but is available at gun shops and is still made by Rem and Win. Both are easy to reload.

EVOC ONE

257man · « **Reply #4 on:** April 06, 2005, 05:25:46 AM »

mt3030--

Congratulations on your find, you will love it. I got mine about 3 years ago and bought the dies and a couple of boxes of 140 gr. rem. corlokts to shoot up to have a little brass. The first 3 shots were used to zero the gun and shots 4,5, and 6 out of the brand new unaltered gun all went into the same hole and it has shot that way ever since. I could not see trying to handload for it when it shoots that well and my now 11 year old son has taken quite a few deer and hogs with it in the last two years and all were very effective one shot kills. I had never used this ammo before in any caliber but I am extremely impressed with it. I hope you have the same good luck with your rifle.

I did try some 139 gr. hornady interlocks over 46 gr. of imr 4350 if i remember correctly, that were loaded up for another 7x57 and they shot 5 rnds.right at 1" @ 100 yds, but I still feed the handi the remingtons that it loves.

mt3030 · « **Reply #5 on:** April 06, 2005, 05:36:59 AM »

Thanks for the replys.
EVOC ONE: I still have it listed on a couple search engines. If another one shows, I'll forward it to you.
bajabill: Serial number starts with NP, indication it was made in 2000.
257man: Thanks for the tip. I've had good luck with Remington corlokts, both in factory ammo and handloads. Once I get some wood on it, thats the first I'll try.
Wally

MSP Ret · « **Reply #6 on:** April 06, 2005, 05:41:55 AM »

Congratulations on your wonderful find!!! My 7x57 seems to like the 139 or 140 bullets the best, I have been shooting factory ammo in it so can offer no preferred loading info. If I remember correctly I got my 7x57 barrel through the barrel accessory program in about 1997 or 98. I had a 45-70 at the time (still have it) and sent the receiver in to get a couple of shotgun barrels and the 7x57 barrel. I had made a trip to the factory and spoke to them in person about the possibility of a 7x57 offering. I was told they would be out in about a year so I just waited and kept calling. As soon as they told me they had the 7x57 barrels in stock the receiver went out for my extra barrels. At the same time I spoke to them twice, (I made 2 trips to the factory) about the possibility of a ML offering, even to describing how easy it would be and offering the TC as an example. I was told they had no intention of manufacturing a ML at that time and would most likely never offer one (again). I left with the comment that if I had the time I was going to retrofit a 45-70 barrel into a ML and if I did I would bring it to them to see, the woman that I spoke to each time said although she had no ability to convince the company to make a ML she would be interested in seeing mine if I did make it up. I never did follow through with my plans to make one.....<><.... :grin:

EVOC ONE · « **Reply #7 on:** April 06, 2005, 08:47:00 AM »

mt3030: Thank you very much. Outstanding.

EVOC ONE

Coalminer7 · « **Reply #8 on:** April 06, 2005, 04:14:16 PM »

EVOC ONE,
None of the local shops you go to has this?? Did you ever go the gun show at Harrisburg?

Glad to seee you are up and runnin Coalminer7

EVOC ONE · « **Reply #9 on:** April 07, 2005, 04:32:43 AM »

Hello Coalminer7: I never made it to the Harrisburg show. I think it was the weekend I went to Grice's and on the way home from there I found the Ultra Comp .30-06. Between the Ultra Comp and a synthetic .44 Mag I bought earlier that same week, the wallet was a little thin. Harrisburg is such a large show, I always seem to find something to buy, especially a Mil-Surp, so I didn't tempt myself.

Over the past month and a half I have visited several gun shops and gun shows from Allentown to Johnstown, Pa. and from Harrisburg, Pa. to Harrisonburg, Va., which is where I bought the .44 Mag. The week after the H-burg show I located a .357 Max outside of Baltimore. After inquiring on this site about it, I had to dig deeper into the pockets and buy it. Through all this traveling, I've seen many Handi's, but no 7X57's

Last weekend, a buddy and I went to Camp Perry in Ohio to pick up an M1 through the CMP. I sold a couple Mil Surps to get the M1. We searched the web for gunshops along the PA Rt 422 corridor. We visited as many as we could and saw some nice stuff, but I exercised a lot of restraint and didn't purchase anything. (However, I am very tempted by a synthetic .280 Handi with a big BSA scope that I saw).

The home PC came back from the shop, seems to be working ok. But the little lady is about ready to toss in out the nearest window. I think we are going to be replacing it soon. Its great when the wife decides to make a big purchase ... "Ah, Honey, It'll be alright. We'll find a good computer with all the latest features". Hehhehheh.

EVOC ONE

Fred M · « **Reply #10 on:** April 07, 2005, 05:19:44 AM »

The 7x57 has 4.5 gr more case volume than the 7mm-08 that is 8% and can easy beat the 7mm-08 in velocity in a modern bolt gun when both are loaded to the same pressure.

Factory 7x57 are not loaded to the same pressure, because the cartridge is over hundred years old and there are a lot of old brake open guns around that won't stand the pressure of a modern bolt gun. the Handi included. Not that they would blow up but they wont shoot with any kind of accurcy. The Handi included.

When handloading for the 7x57 Handi it is best to stay with 51500psi or a bit under. The benefit of the 7x57 for the Handi is the larger case volume, which accomodates more slow burning powder for higher velocity and lower pressure.

Really if H&R done their home work they would not have discontinued the 7x57 from their Handi line. There is nothing wrong with the 7mm-08 but the 7x57 is better suited for the Handi. My opinion.

The 7x57 origional hunting bullet was 9.0g this converts to 138.8912gr or 139gr and that is in my opinion the very best shooting bullet in most 7mm bores with a 1-10" or 1-11" twist. It has the perfect balance for the bore.

EVOC ONE · « **Reply #11 on:** April 07, 2005, 05:33:01 AM »

Exellent information, Fred. Thank you. I have read where the 7-08 will "just about duplicate the 7X57", but I didn't know the specifics.

Just makes me want one even more.

EVOC ONE

poncaguy · « **Reply #12 on:** April 07, 2005, 08:04:02 AM »

I notice Hornady has a "Light Magnum" load for the 7x57. How do the ballastics compare to handloads?

Fred M · « **Reply #13 on:** April 07, 2005, 08:18:12 AM »

poncaguy.
Ask Hornady, their is no equivalent powder for hand loading, the light magnums use a solid powder. You have to try them in a Handi and let us know.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #14 on:** April 07, 2005, 08:26:46 AM »

Quote from: Fred M

When handloading for the 7x57 Handi it is best to stay with 51500psi or a bit under. ......

Fred, I'm a bit confused :? by that statement, please explain why you limit to that pressure when my .243, .270 and .30-06 shoot excellent groups at pressures exceeding the 51.5k psi. Do you mean 51.5k cup???

Thx

Tim

Fred M · « **Reply #15 on:** April 07, 2005, 09:27:59 AM »

Quick.
How do you ascertain loading pressures, I never see you publishing any
velocities. Just because it says so in loading books does not mean that you get what it says. You can assign any pressure you want, my investigation with a chronograph, Quick Load, case expansion. and Ba factors of powders tell me 51.5kpsi is a good pressure for the Handi.
No it's not cup I never use it.

If you have a 0.001'' OVERSIZE barrel you never be anywhere close to published velocities opr pressure. From what I have read on this forum OS barrels are quite common. (This I explained before non stress relieved barrels)

Since I don't have a strain gage to varify the 51.5kpsi, this too is an edjucated guess. But it is better than pure guessing.

You don't have to go by what I have to say after all it is just my findings, yours may very well be different. This why you should never use any ones handloads or loading data.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #16 on:** April 07, 2005, 11:57:42 AM »

Fred, while what you say makes some sense, I have no indication that any of my bores are oversized, not with the accuracy that I'm getting. You've have one handi that didn't shoot well and that was a real headache for you, but just because yours had an oversize bore, certainly doesn't mean they all are that way, and I believe few do, if any in the high pressure rounds. The low pressure rounds have documented oversized and inconsistent bore sizes as shown by those who own the 44mag and 38-55 calibers. While I haven't chrono'd any of my loads yet, if I'm using published data and don't change any components, my velocities won't necessarily be the same, but they ought to be close and therefore the pressures should be close, also. I have an F-1 Master chrony and will use it later this year when the weather gets a bit nicer than it has been lately, so I'll post my velocities as I learn them, I fully expect them to be in the neighborhood of the published data that I've used, but slightly lower due to the H&R's normally long freebore. :wink:

Fred M · « **Reply #17 on:** April 07, 2005, 03:03:49 PM »

Quick.
As you might be aware of, pressure readings are obtained from the very best of pressure barrels with the most consistent dimensions for the chamber throat and bore consistency with SAAMI standards.

They are state of the art and very expensive only the very best barrel makers are engaged to produce them. Do suppose they compare with a production barrel such as the Handi and or with a whole lot of others? It is virtual impossible to get the same readings as a laboritory pressure barrel.
Some barrels come very close if they are made to SAAMI specs.

You are also wrong by saying that only my 25-06 had and over size barrel.
The 223 I converted also had an oversized barrel not as much but more than standard .224. The other 223 barrel I have has not been measured but I will, since Mitchell told me it did not shoot too well. I know of two others.

When you start using a chronograph you will quickly become aware of that. Another thing you will see the fluctuations of velocities even in the same loads. (velocity= pressure) 4kpsi is quite normal, 10% difference is what you can find in a high tensity cartridges. Then comes the difference in powder lots that can change things 5% pluse or minus mostly plus.

Ok lets do a little math 51.5 K( my parameter) mean pressure plus 10%= 56650psi you can add another 5% 2575 for powder variation and what do you get 59225 psi. That is not a remote senario. You know the saying start low and work up this is not a joke.

What do you think happens when a load you make that supped to do 3000ft ft makes 3150 or 2850. Do just wonder and carry on? I don't I want to know why?

There are loads and powder that have lower variations and these come mostly with a sightly copmpressed powder charge in a range of perhaps 104% loading density. But this can only be established with a chronograph and each rifle will be different.

The ball of wax is, loading data can not be taken as gospel and nor can pressure readings. I never use them only to compare.

I am very happy to read when you have Handi rifles that shoot well and meet you expectation. So far I had to work at it, even the 257 Roberts toke very careful load development, and too I had sticky cases and I full size only with a fitted die.

Now why would a case stick in a finly polished chamber and a full sized case? You don't need a crystal ball for that one.

:-D

quickdtoo · « **Reply #18 on:** April 07, 2005, 03:20:39 PM »

Hmmm, food for thought, but I still don't accept the oversize bore theory as a general rule, maybe some exist but certainly not all, I have too many good shooters in my collection to add any validity to that theory and the numbers speak for themselves. The ONLY one that I have that I don't know about yet is the .280 Rem, it hasn't been shot yet, but I expect it to be a good shooter, too. The only reason it didn't get shot this week is the frame is at H&R getting a .30-06 UltraComp barrel fitted. As for stuck cases, the only stuck cases I've had have been from not cleaning and drying the chamber after cleaning at the range, even in my .223 which is an H&R caliber that is notorious for sticking brass. :wink:

GregP42 · « **Reply #19 on:** April 08, 2005, 03:47:11 AM »

I just had a weird thought, could you take a 7mm-08 and ream it out to 7x57? I will have to go look at the case drawing later after I wake up more.

Also, if you still have that search saved could you also let me know if ya find another one?

Thanks,
Greg

mt3030 · « **Reply #20 on:** April 08, 2005, 05:07:02 AM »

Greg,
The 7x57 reamer will not clean up the 7mmx08 chamber on a Handi. On a bolt you can turn back the barrel enough to get rid of the old chambering.

If another 7x57 turns up, I'll post it.

Wally

Mac11700 · « **Reply #21 on:** April 08, 2005, 06:40:50 AM »

Fred...you stated:

Quote

Just because it says so in loading books does not mean that you get what it says. You can assign any pressure you want, my investigation with a chronograph, Quick Load, case expansion. and Ba factors of powders tell me 51.5kpsi is a good pressure for the Handi.

Quote

They are state of the art and very expensive only the very best barrel makers are engaged to produce them. Do suppose they compare with a production barrel such as the Handi and or with a whole lot of others? It is virtual impossible to get the same readings as a laboritory pressure barrel.
Some barrels come very close if they are made to SAAMI specs.

Just exactly what do you mean by this...the pressures given by the the powder manufactures are taken from pressure barrels...that are cut to be Saami specs...these aren't benchrest chambers...these are chambers cut to be within SAAMI...these pressure barrels are designed to give averages and certain factory ammo is used to regulate them...they don't arbitrarely assign random pressure values with out testing them to be sure first...and their data is and always be the accepted means of doing any reloading. If you are using any computer program to simulate pressures...then you are fooling yourself...EVERY computer program to do this has been proven at one time or another to give false readings... EVERYONE OF THEM...and this has been hashed and rehased on just about every gun forum on the web...even here...now...getting back to the pressure test barrels...and what we as reloaders hope to accomplish... all of the powder manufactures publish their findings...they use xyz components...with abc powder a have a oal of xxx"...the pressure they list...is first verified by shooting it out of a pressure test barrel...then usually out of a firearm...and they will state which firearm they use...all of the data they get is compared directly to the SAAMI approved factory ammo...for all pressure readings...so that they can correlate the imformation and pass it on to us...and ... IF if use the exact same components as what they have..you can be fairly certain the pressure your getting will be very very close to what they published...there are and will always be exceptions to this...like for example... if you have a firearm that is way out of SAAMI specs...then your pressures can be different...

Now...as to this statement...

Quote

From what I have read on this forum OS barrels are quite common. (This I explained before non stress relieved barrels)

...most of our Handis don't have oversized bores as a rule...while there may some that do...gennerally they are within specs...some calibers have been known to be out...ie.. 38's ....44's and some 45's...but...most of the high pressure centerfires are not...and since you have gotten a few bad ones...which is entirely possible and I'm not doubting for a minute you haven't had...but...since your buying used barrels. and you don't know what has transpied with the previous owner(s)....you cannot regulate all of them to be the same...now...what a-lot of them do have and is common thru out the Handi line.. is long throats...not all mind you...there have been abunch slip thru from the factory with short throats...but more with longer throats than short...and the reason for this...is just a simple phone call away for you if you truely want to know...call NEF and ask them...the max pressures the Handi is designed for is what the 270 Winchester gives for right now...and they are trying to better that...they are plenty strong and plenty accurate...All of mine and most of the others will shoot them close to the published velocities as what most manufactures state....some better...some at..a only a few worse....I've chronoghraphed enough loads from mine and others handi's to know this...that the bulk of rifles produced are within SAAMI specs...and will give good accuracy and velocities... and if I follow the manufactures recomendations...I don't have to worry about the pressures....I know the loads that I'm making will be safe...and that they have already been tested...and approved for us to make...

Mac

Fred M · « **Reply #22 on:** April 08, 2005, 09:22:09 AM »

Mac you got it all wrong. laboratory pressure barrels are not regulated with factory ammo, its the other way around. Besides a laboratory barrel will do all sorts of other tests besides velocity and chamber pressure.

Owner of strain gages do use factory ammo in some cases to calibrate the gages.

SAAMI pressure barrel values are not consistent whit the run of the mill sporter barrels. Don't take my word for it, your mind is made up and I won't try to change it.

51.5kpsi is a good value when you consider any load can vary by 10%without your help plus another 5% for powder lot variation you are up to 59Kpsi. Plenty enough for a Handi.

Before you comment on Quick -Load you should try on. Most people that complain about Q-L have either never used on, or don't know how to use them or try to use the as a loading book. The program comes with more that 200 pages of instructions, but that don't help if don't understand it.

Its like Dr Zeus green eggs and ham.

Perhaps I should quit writing stuff like that, don't mind giving advise and findings, but I don't like to turn it into a contest, where the facts are scewed.

Oh ya I have three H&R barrels that were over size on two both ends that one I have not measured at the chamber. That is three out of three or 100% for me. May be I don't know how to measure barrels :cry:

Mac11700 · « **Reply #23 on:** April 08, 2005, 04:37:52 PM »

Fred:

First off.....No...I don't have it all wrong....I never said you didn't know how to measure a barrel...I thought I was quite specific on that....if you mistook what I said...please re-read it....Second...I really don't have to take your word on how pressure barrels are set up...I've been fortunate to be around a few of them...nor how the internal dimensions of them are spec'd.....it will depend on "Who" has them...and "What" they are using them for... I know they are not cut on the tight side,for standard calibers..they are cut on the "NORM" of what production guns are made...averages...it would do absolutely no good at all to set the standards for match grade chambers and barrels...none.. certain individuals may if they are using it for personal use...but not the main Powder Companies. they are within the SAMMI spec's...always they also check the chambers of the rifles they use to insure they are within spec's...they then list the rifle that was used with it's pertinent information.....so... they present the data and give the " average" pressure they got with the load.....Third...they use certain factory spec'd ammo for their base line data...it is their "known value"...all else is measured against it...each cartridge. each manufacture has ammo like this...don't believe me...spend your dime and call them..and... each bullet weight is done that way...to set the base line. even the independant testing labs.....Fourth...I have no need to use any computer program to tell me the true pressure of any load I choose to test...while you may feel it it accurate for your wildcats...for standard factory ammo it is practically useless and un-needed...all one simply has to do is to stay with-in the recommended loads and the pressures will also...and if I did venture out into your neck of the woods with all those awsome wildcats...I might feel very differently...but ...we are not talking about a wildcat now...are we....and if I truely want to know the true pressure I'll spend my money and send it in to have tested...accuratly....Also...while I don't use quickload...I do know several folks who have purchased and used it...these are my benchrest friends we've spoke of before...most all are quite computer literate...and several are programmers themselves...so...I have a real good indacation of it's usefulness for standard calibers...lastly...this comment of yours

Quote

51.5kpsi is a good value when you consider any load can vary by 10%without your help plus another 5% for powder lot variation you are up to 59Kpsi. Plenty enough for a Handi.

...while for someone totally new to reloading that doesn't have proper safe and effective handloading techniques learned may believe it and accept it...I for one don't...none...I repeat...none of the handloads I have developed every varied by 15%...period...yours might have...but not mine...this high a variation is not acceptable for me nor shouldn't be for anyone else that handloads.. Good Grief...a 15% variation of a 3000fps load would be 450fps...No-Sir...Not Me....... I won't accept over a 50fps standard deviation for any round I'm using...this is the max I'll accept and the majority of time mine is closer to 25fps...if it isn't then I don't use it...or I'll continue to refine it till it does.....and if any lot of powder varies over 1%-2% shot to shot...I'm on the phone to the company...and this goes for factory ammo as well...on this I have had that high of variation in the past...but none that high as of late......and on the factory ammo...a prompt friendly phone call always netted me replacements...every manufacture wants to know this...and will test it to see if there is a problem...and will tell you the results...or send along a printed test sheet if asked...with the replacement ammo...

Have A Great 1

Mac

Fred M · « **Reply #24 on:** April 08, 2005, 06:18:00 PM »

Quote

Good Grief...a 15% variation of a 3000fps load would be 450fps...No-Sir...Not Me.......

Mac you got it ass backwards again. 15% increase in pressure does not equate to 15% velocity. Good grief is right where have you been.
15% increase in pressure in a 223 or 204 like case only amounts to one lousy grain of powder and mybe 80 ft velocity or a 3% increase. At times I too like to hear myself talk.

GregP42 · « **Reply #25 on:** April 08, 2005, 06:54:02 PM »

Quote from: mt3030

Greg,
The 7x57 reamer will not clean up the 7mmx08 chamber on a Handi. On a bolt you can turn back the barrel enough to get rid of the old chambering.

If another 7x57 turns up, I'll post it.

Wally

Wally,

Yea I found this out after I got my books out and woke up more, if there was more tapper on the 7mm-08 it might clean up....

I just had another thought.... Any one have the specs for the 7x57 improved?

Also Wally, many thanks for keeping an eye open, just PM me if ya see one.

Greg

Fred M · « **Reply #26 on:** April 08, 2005, 07:18:02 PM »

GregP42
If they 7-08 chamber is not too big at the shoulder the 7x57 IMP or AI will clean up the chamber. The shoulder on the 7-08 is supposed to be .454".

The imp shoulder is .456 to .459.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #27 on:** April 08, 2005, 07:58:30 PM »

Quote

When you start using a chronograph you will quickly become aware of that. Another thing you will see the fluctuations of velocities even in the same loads. (velocity= pressure) 4kpsi is quite normal, 10% difference is what you can find in a high tensity cartridges. Then comes the difference in powder lots that can change things 5% pluse or minus mostly plus.

Not Really...since you are giving partial statements at times...and I took what you said literally...you really didn't diferentiate any differences between the 2...and since you said...pressure = velocity...one follows the other...granted...perhaps not as high a 450fps that was taking what you said to the extreme...and I apologize...but...never-the-less... well over 200- 300fps in most loadings...do the math from a published reloading manual that list the PSI ratings...afterall...your the one claiming the "norm" for our Handi's is to have an oversized bore...one has a direct bearing on the other...does it not...? Do the math yourself...instead of making blanket statements to try to validate your own reasoning or that of a program that has been proven to be off as much as your claims of pressure...it's not really as difficult as rocket science...so... I think that most of those that are interested can look for themselves... all they have to do is to find a max listed PSI laod of their favorite cartridge and sutract your 15% from the pressure value given...look at what velocitiies are that you wind up with...like I said...between 200-300fps...and that sir is definatly noticeable...not only in the felt recoil...but also on performance of the load on target...even at 100yards...can you find loads that match what you say...yep...sure can...but the same can be true of what I stated as well...that's the way of mathmatics...

I've said this before to you...and I'll say it again...not all Handi's are like yours...most of them from what I've experianced and read about...preform just fine at higher pressures,and give the velocities that have been stated...or extreamly close to it...but not 15% off......Your 3 for 3. so you say,question for you.....were all of them brand new factory issuded barrels or are they from a brand new gun that you personally know that they have never been abused or had been polished incorrectly or firelapped improperly? I've seen the results of a few folks "Good Intentions"...not pretty.......It's a shame.. you have had such terrible luck with them...and I really feel sorry for you about it ,and that they haven't lived up to your standards...maybe one day you'll get one that is right,or as I have been blessed with being 7 for 7 to the good...one thing though......if the bulk of them that have been produced was as bad as you seem to feel...I really don't they would have stayed in buisness for as long as they have and everyone that has a chronograph would have been complaining about not getting close to the published velocities...strange...now..With your statement of the" Normal"...of 4kpsi...this in itself is closer to reality...with good powders and the rest of the components...not 15%..and to be honest...even a 10% variation is out of the ordinary...at a 60,000 psi loading...bumping it up to 66.000 psi...you'll notice this right away...in recoil,and also velocity...somewhere around 200-300fps...:wink:

Mac